I don't mean to sound ignorant, but ...

[neverbigenough]

why is stacking AAS during a cycle so beneficial? I mean is there going to be a really big difference between taking 1g sust or 1g sust and 600g deca? Enough to notice? I can see taking dbol or abombs to start a cycle, but as far as taking multiple oils I think its a waste of money. My best cycle to date was simply omnadren and dbol. I've take test with every cycle and I've stacked it with deca, EQ, fina, and winny. The only difference I ever feel is some better pumps when I took the EQ. Does anyone have any medical proof that stacking really works or is it just a bill phillips theory?

 

[einstein1905]

Each different compound acts differently. They all bind the same receptors, but once inside the nucleus, they upregulate, to different degrees, different genes. Stacking of AAS allows for one agent to compliment another. You'll often get a synergistic effect (1 + 1= 3). Test alone is the only thing that should be done alone....test as a first cycle allows you to determine how you react to AAS, in general, and it also has a good intermediate effect on its own.

why is stacking AAS during a cycle so beneficial? I mean is there going to be a really big difference between taking 1g sust or 1g sust and 600g deca? Enough to notice? I can see taking dbol or abombs to start a cycle, but as far as taking multiple oils I think its a waste of money. My best cycle to date was simply omnadren and dbol. I've take test with every cycle and I've stacked it with deca, EQ, fina, and winny. The only difference I ever feel is some better pumps when I took the EQ. Does anyone have any medical proof that stacking really works or is it just a bill phillips theory?

 

[Grizzly]

I agree with you to some degree, Never. Personally, I think that everyone makes their cycles way too complicated searching for some magic combo that will make them huge.

However, I do think EQ is a great compliment to test. The test has a deleterious effect on tendons and the Eq repairs them. Put together, they will help you train more pain and injury free.

 

[HHH]

I agree with you to some degree, Never. Personally, I think that everyone makes their cycles way too complicated searching for some magic combo that will make them huge.

However, I do think EQ is a great compliment to test. The test has a deleterious effect on tendons and the Eq repairs them. Put together, they will help you train more pain and injury free.

Yep!

HHH

 

[THL]

As far as all out results, I too think that all these complicated stacks that
people take are a little over rated. For instance, you will gain more on a
gram of test than you will on 500 test/500 deca (or eq). But, for me at least,
the side effects will tend to be lower.

Some stacks are indeed synergestic (is that even a word?) though. Bill Roberts
once suggested that 50mg/day of tren, dbol, and winny is more potent than
a gram of test. I tried it and think he is right. But do you really want to be
doing 100mg/day of orals for a 10 week cycle, not to mention ed injections?
I know I dont.

 

[Grizzly]

That's interesting, THL.

 

[einstein1905]

I'd be interested to see any real studies that show EQ has a positive effect on tendons. A lot of this stuff is taken out of context. Many studies will show that compound X has a positive effect on procollogen type III, but a negative efect on procollagen type II (just as an example). Then, people take from that what they want, and it ends up being compound X is good for connective tissue or compound X is bad for connective tissue. Winny, for instance, promotes collagen synthesis, i.e. it's pro-joint. You feel joint pain when you're on it, but that doesn't mean it's "bad for your joints". You'll feel joint pain on GH often too, but GH is excellent at promoting connective tissue growth. A stack including a highly anabolic compound with a highly androgenic compound is like testosterone....on steroids.
Stacking is always better for pure gains than a single compound or even a simple stack. There will be lots of overlap as far as what each compound will do, but there will also be complimentation too. Gains:sides ratio, however, I say simple stacks are much better any day.

 

[jimanold22]

Have you guys ever noticed that on some cycles certain body parts had better results than other's?I notice this cycle that my arms and back have grown more than anything else.My last cycle it was mostly my quads,chest,ticeps that grew.My training is still pretty much the same except for the exercises I do.I keep to heavy compound movement also.

 

[eleven11]

I'd be interested to see any real studies that show EQ has a positive effect on tendons. A lot of this stuff is taken out of context. Many studies will show that compound X has a positive effect on procollogen type III, but a negative efect on procollagen type II (just as an example). Then, people take from that what they want, and it ends up being compound X is good for connective tissue or compound X is bad for connective tissue. Winny, for instance, promotes collagen synthesis, i.e. it's pro-joint. You feel joint pain when you're on it, but that doesn't mean it's "bad for your joints". You'll feel joint pain on GH often too, but GH is excellent at promoting connective tissue growth. A stack including a highly anabolic compound with a highly androgenic compound is like testosterone....on steroids.
Stacking is always better for pure gains than a single compound or even a simple stack. There will be lots of overlap as far as what each compound will do, but there will also be complimentation too. Gains:sides ratio, however, I say simple stacks are much better any day.

Thats the first time I'd heard winny is good for your joints, I'm not disagreeing I just always read about bad for joints. I know first hand about GH and it can cause joint pain at high doses but we know about its healing powers.......11

 

[THL]

I'd be interested to see any real studies that show EQ has a positive effect on tendons. A lot of this stuff is taken out of context. Many studies will show that compound X has a positive effect on procollogen type III, but a negative efect on procollagen type II (just as an example). Then, people take from that what they want, and it ends up being compound X is good for connective tissue or compound X is bad for connective tissue. Winny, for instance, promotes collagen synthesis, i.e. it's pro-joint. You feel joint pain when you're on it, but that doesn't mean it's "bad for your joints". You'll feel joint pain on GH often too, but GH is excellent at promoting connective tissue growth. A stack including a highly anabolic compound with a highly androgenic compound is like testosterone....on steroids.
Stacking is always better for pure gains than a single compound or even a simple stack. There will be lots of overlap as far as what each compound will do, but there will also be complimentation too. Gains:sides ratio, however, I say simple stacks are much better any day.

I'm not sure I agree with you about the single compound vs. simple stacks. Do
you feel that test alone will not yield as good of gains as test + deca? In my
experience, test alone is better for gains. While test does not bind as well to
the AR as deca, it does have the advantage of its metabolites being anabolic.

 

[Grizzly]

Ask Hogg about the specific studies, Einstein. He's posted them before, IIRC.

 

[einstein1905]

I'm not sure I agree with you about the single compound vs. simple stacks. Do
you feel that test alone will not yield as good of gains as test + deca? In my
experience, test alone is better for gains. While test does not bind as well to
the AR as deca, it does have the advantage of its metabolites being anabolic.

You're right...it is more complicated than that. You have to factor in things like affinity for the AR and what not, nut we also have to consider what we mean by "gains". Highly androgenic compounds tend to promote muscle hardness, whereas things like deca are known more as "size" compounds. No one compound is complete, and that's why we use various compounds. It'd be very hard to say for sure if one single compound would be better than a stack, because how could you compare the two? If you compare gains between 2 different people, that's no good, since there is too much individual variability. You can't compare someone's first cycle to their second cycle, because you almost always will gain less your second time just because you'll be striving to add more LBM to an already enlarged frame, which is harder to do than to gain while not having previously added mass.


Here's a winny + connective tissue study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9856839

 

[Deacon]

interesting thread - but winny is hard on joints period!

deca does help joints almost like a solvent effect, EQ does also but to a lesser effect - that is all easy to find Einstein just start searching around the net.

I agree with Grizz though that to many cycles these days are to complicated - guys are trying to mix cutter and bulking cycles - I still stick with the way I was taught back in the 80's by the big dudes - bulker or cutter period.


Usually why guys stack is to gain the synergistic effect of test mixed with whatever you feel you want to gain - pure size = deca , lean quality mass = EQ

for power and mass = tren


Can you do all of this alone with just test? Not IMO but then we are all unique - what works for me will not work for you -

and btw - if you are smart - do proper pct - keep your head out of your ass and train hard it is not hard to gain as much or more from a second third or whatever cycle Einstein - you should get smarter as you go along so in fact I believe your consecutive cycles should be better that your first - sure the first is the most magical one because any dumb monkey can gain on his first trip - but it those who keep gaining as they go who know what they are doing.

 

[einstein1905]

The study I posted above shows the winny effect on collagen synthesis. I've combed pubmed for AAS-related studies over the years, and I've never seen one regarding EQ and connective tissue. Deca is similar to EQ, so I'd assume it would have the ability to increase synovial fluid, but this is just a masking effect. Anadrol has the same type of effect as well.

I spent about one hour on the net trying to find real studies on this topic. But there are not too many real medical studies on this. It is hard to find a controlled study on AAS and bodybuilders. Each respective AAS has its medical purpose, such as anadrol for anemic patients or even Deca for HIV patients. so the study is relevant to that topic, not to see how the drug helps bb's in strength and joint problems, other than muscle waisting in certain people and at low doses.

EQ has similiar Deca properties and does, slightly, increase synovial fluid therefore helps with lubing the joints, but on a higher dosage than deca. Winstrol is known to dry up, the joints but increase collagen synthesis. I think this lack of fluid is what people are feeling when they complain of joint pain. But again, I could not find a medical study to back that up.

 

[Grizzly]

Ok, I'm not going to do the subject justice at all right now. However, here is how I understand it.

Winny- creates large, brittle tendons.

Deca- causes a large increase in synovial fluid and a small amount of collagen(good, not like winny) synthesis.

EQ- causes a small increase in synovial fluid and a large increas in collagen(good, not like winny) synthesis.

This is just how I interperet the information I have been shown.

 

[bigpoppapump]

As far as I know Deca does nothing for joints except lube them up a bit more and make them feel better alot like cortizone. You always here guys talk about how there going to use Deca in there cycle because they have a shoulder problem or whatever, and end up getting hurt worse because all the Deca did was hide the pain and let u get fucked up.

PUMP

 

[Grizzly]

No shit, Karch. BPP, did you bother to read the post above yours?

 

[GeaR_and_SauCe]

From experience, I have to kinda sorta agree with the original post. Stacking does have advantages but nevertheless it is definitly overrrated. I've done cycles with just test and I have mixed test deca and dbol. The only difference I've ever noticed is stacking the dbol. Also, the deca kills my sex drive, even with good amounts of test. Anyway, I still stack but I'm kinda thinking that it might not be worth the price and the additional injections, depending what stack you are doing. Also, the synergetic effect theory is bullshit. You dont suddenly blow up any more than you would if you didnt mix the two.

 

[einstein1905]

If the synergistic effect theory is BS, then why does nearly 100% of the people using AAS stack? Ther obviously is some synergy going on, or everyone would just use one compound. It's not a matter of "blowing up" while stacking versus a single component, but you do see better gains. Either that, or we're all living lies by stacking, when there's really no benefit to it.

From experience, I have to kinda sorta agree with the original post. Stacking does have advantages but nevertheless it is definitly overrrated. I've done cycles with just test and I have mixed test deca and dbol. The only difference I've ever noticed is stacking the dbol. Also, the deca kills my sex drive, even with good amounts of test. Anyway, I still stack but I'm kinda thinking that it might not be worth the price and the additional injections, depending what stack you are doing. Also, the synergetic effect theory is bullshit. You dont suddenly blow up any more than you would if you didnt mix the two.

 

[neverbigenough]

If the synergistic effect theory is BS, then why does nearly 100% of the people using AAS stack? Ther obviously is some synergy going on, or everyone would just use one compound. It's not a matter of "blowing up" while stacking versus a single component, but you do see better gains. Either that, or we're all living lies by stacking, when there's really no benefit to it.

I think the reason people stack AAS during cycles is due to its psychological benefits (eg. If I take 3 types of AAS, I'll get a lot bigger than if I just took test). I don't care what people say ... as soon as someone starts a cycle that feeling of euphoria sets in and you feel bigger and stronger even if it's your third day into the cycle. I think alot of the reasons people stack AAS are psychological or they "heard from a buddy" he took a stack and it worked well. Maybe his buddy trains harder or eats cleaner and that's where the better results came from. I'll take 1g of test as my favorite cycle any day of the week. I'd rather spend $200 on protien shakes than some deca bottles. I guess back to my original post ... I've tried almost every cycle out there and the only time I notice a variance in gains is when I start wih a heavy oral like dbol or abombs. All this medical terminology doesn't mean a damn thing if you don't see a difference in the morror. Then again what do I know.