I feel like everything is hopeless [long post]

[dalbert]

Hello, I'm simply very sceptical and scared of these antidepressants. I read many concerning things about them for example that antidepressants are brought in connection with school massacres and shit like that. Also my GP is strictly against antidepressants he told me he'd never take this stuff, which does not really increase my trust in them.
And did you read this here? This is also very disturbing. How is taking something to ease my fears supposed to help me when I at the same time worry that this shit will damage my brain?
I even use toothpaste without flouride then how could I ingest this shit and feel good about it?

https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134310199

 

[Structure]

I can understand what you are saying. From the outside, it does not look the same as how you see it. Like clockwork, when people are depressed, they are absolutely convinced that they have completely thought out all of the options, and they do not see any possibility of a solution.

I brought up the example of girls that get suicidally depressed when they gain a few pounds. The example is to help you understand what depression looks like to people on the outside. For example, if you gained a few pounds, you wouldn't care. But to these girls, it is the end of their social life. No one will like them anymore. Everyone is looking at them, thinking that they are disgusting. They'd rather die then to have to keep living as fat girls, having to bear this horrible social stigma.

It sounds silly, but that is only because these problems are not your problems. This is what depression looks like to other people.

How does this apply to you? The truth is that someone else could have all of the problems that you have right now, and not be depressed about it. That's not to say that other people wouldn't have stress (school stresses everyone out), the difference is that they just wouldn't be depressed. Just like you could have the problems that these fat-fearing girls have, and you wouldn't be depressed.

I don't mean to trivialize your situation; getting your head on straight when you are depressed is very challenging. I can offer you a few tips to help you gain some perspective:

Sometimes we are made unhappy by what are called "cognitive distortions". One such distortion is when we employ "all or nothing" thinking. You can do this without even knowing you are doing it. For example, you've mentioned that you are 8 years older than a lot of students in your classes, and that you have taken too long with your studies, and that you have no room for failure at all. Well, why is 8 years the magic number? What if someone was complaining because they were 7 years older than the other students in their class, and they said that they had no room for failure? That would imply that taking these classes when you are 8 years older was not an option. Would they be right? The fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter if you are 8 years older, 9 years older, or older than that. If you fail a class, you can retake it. Just because it would suck to retake a class doesn't mean it is not an option. And yeah, your dad can be an asshole about it and tell you to go kill yourself, but that just makes him an asshole, it doesn't change the fact that when he's done being an asshole, you're still just going to retake the class, and life goes on just like before.

This is but one example.

Another example is the floaters. Yeah, they're annoying, but they pose absolutely no health risk whatsoever. You won't go blind from them. They are just specks. Your life will go on. You can see just fine. Sure, it would be nice if you didn't have them, but they are still just specks. The belief that your life has suddenly become intolerable because of cellular debris floating in your field of vision is a bad conclusion.

Both of these examples illustrate the following point: there is a huge difference between "suboptimal" and intolerable.

These points may be difficult for you to see, but I promise you that to the outside they are just as easy to understand as the example with the girls being afraid of gaining a few pounds.

I still think it would really benefit you if you found a counselor that was able to talk to you about how to cope with imperfection. There's lots of reasons why people get bogged down with stress. For me, the key thing to remember is that everything you're worried about: school, finals, the paper, your floaters, etc. all of these things can go wrong, and YOU'LL STILL BE JUST FINE. I hope I have helped you to see this a little better...

As I've mentioned before, when your attitude regarding your situation actually causes more damage to your quality of life than your situation is causing, then there's something wrong. in other words, the floaters aren't the problem with your life, it's your attitude towards your floaters.

 

[james2012]

I can understand what you are saying. From the outside, it does not look the same as how you see it. Like clockwork, when people are depressed, they are absolutely convinced that they have completely thought out all of the options, and they do not see any possibility of a solution.

I brought up the example of girls that get suicidally depressed when they gain a few pounds. The example is to help you understand what depression looks like to people on the outside. For example, if you gained a few pounds, you wouldn't care. But to these girls, it is the end of their social life. No one will like them anymore. Everyone is looking at them, thinking that they are disgusting. They'd rather die then to have to keep living as fat girls, having to bear this horrible social stigma.

It sounds silly, but that is only because these problems are not your problems. This is what depression looks like to other people.

How does this apply to you? The truth is that someone else could have all of the problems that you have right now, and not be depressed about it. That's not to say that other people wouldn't have stress (school stresses everyone out), the difference is that they just wouldn't be depressed. Just like you could have the problems that these fat-fearing girls have, and you wouldn't be depressed.

I don't mean to trivialize your situation; getting your head on straight when you are depressed is very challenging. I can offer you a few tips to help you gain some perspective:

Sometimes we are made unhappy by what are called "cognitive distortions". One such distortion is when we employ "all or nothing" thinking. You can do this without even knowing you are doing it. For example, you've mentioned that you are 8 years older than a lot of students in your classes, and that you have taken too long with your studies, and that you have no room for failure at all. Well, why is 8 years the magic number? What if someone was complaining because they were 7 years older than the other students in their class, and they said that they had no room for failure? That would imply that taking these classes when you are 8 years older was not an option. Would they be right? The fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter if you are 8 years older, 9 years older, or older than that. If you fail a class, you can retake it. Just because it would suck to retake a class doesn't mean it is not an option. And yeah, your dad can be an asshole about it and tell you to go kill yourself, but that just makes him an asshole, it doesn't change the fact that when he's done being an asshole, you're still just going to retake the class, and life goes on just like before.

This is but one example.

Another example is the floaters. Yeah, they're annoying, but they pose absolutely no health risk whatsoever. You won't go blind from them. They are just specks. Your life will go on. You can see just fine. Sure, it would be nice if you didn't have them, but they are still just specks. The belief that your life has suddenly become intolerable because of cellular debris floating in your field of vision is a bad conclusion.

Both of these examples illustrate the following point: there is a huge difference between "suboptimal" and intolerable.

These points may be difficult for you to see, but I promise you that to the outside they are just as easy to understand as the example with the girls being afraid of gaining a few pounds.

I still think it would really benefit you if you found a counselor that was able to talk to you about how to cope with imperfection. There's lots of reasons why people get bogged down with stress. For me, the key thing to remember is that everything you're worried about: school, finals, the paper, your floaters, etc. all of these things can go wrong, and YOU'LL STILL BE JUST FINE. I hope I have helped you to see this a little better...

As I've mentioned before, when your attitude regarding your situation actually causes more damage to your quality of life than your situation is causing, then there's something wrong. in other words, the floaters aren't the problem with your life, it's your attitude towards your floaters.

Structure makes excellent points, although it may be hard to see the logic while in the state you are in, it might be worth a try. Willing yourself out of a depression is like pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. But it does happen on rare occasions.

Try to keep this in mind if at all possible at this time: nobody makes you happy or sad - only you do. To give an example, lets take a situation in which an event occurs with the same external circumstances but with different results due to a different internal state. You have a girlfriend, you love her with your entire being. She knocks on your door, you open it, and she tells you it;s over. You are crushed and depressed for months.

The same event happens, except this time your internal condition has changed. You really don't want to be in the relationship, but your too nice to break it off. Staying in it has made you miserable. There is a knock at your door, your open it. She again is standing there and informs you she wants to break up. You act crushed because you are a nice guy and want her to feel important enough that someone would care if she left them. The door closes, and you dance around your living room, drink a beer, go out and get laid.

Same statements, same circumstances, different internal model of your relationship. It is not her that makes you happy or sad - it is you. Never give anyone that power. And remember this - in a depressed state you can and will be your own worse enemy and continue to make yourself miserable and possibly blame others or some condition for your ailments and feelings. The only way out is to break the cycle. Notice you are doing it and bring your attention back to the real world and out of your head. I usually don't give this type of advice until somebody is past a depression, but you seem unwilling to take medication.

By the way, a variation of this approach is what is used in one style of meditation. Keep your attention on your breath and if you note your mind is wandering, bring it back to your breath. Over a period of months your mind begins to build the mental toolset to do this very quickly - sometimes on demand.

I would not recommend Mindfulness meditation at this point. When you are ready I would be happy to provide you with a few good resources.

Good luck on your journey, because that is what it is.

 

[pauladrive]

https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134297187

 

[james2012]

Hello, I'm simply very sceptical and scared of these antidepressants. I read many concerning things about them for example that antidepressants are brought in connection with school massacres and shit like that. Also my GP is strictly against antidepressants he told me he'd never take this stuff, which does not really increase my trust in them.
And did you read this here? This is also very disturbing. How is taking something to ease my fears supposed to help me when I at the same time worry that this shit will damage my brain?
I even use toothpaste without flouride then how could I ingest this shit and feel good about it?

https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134310199

Your doctor has obviously never been depressed. My aunt was absolutely against taking anything until she was - quite literally - at her wits end. After 7 years she gave in and I was sure the nocebo effect - which you are describing - would stop the efficacy of the drug. Boy was I wrong. She is flying high and has two business in development that are going to change her life.

Like I said earlier, if you are scared, start with the smallest does of Zoloft. Heck start with 25mg. I doubt you note any change - and I doubt you will suddenly go postal or want to kill yourself. Then bump it to 50mg. Once you start feeling good, just stay at the lower dose. Once you have your footing back, start in earnest a mediation program under supervision - or join a yoga class. Over time wean yourself off once you have been better for about 6-12 months. If the depression comes back, I would consider unstable mood disorder. Take clonazepam for that as a starter. Nobody has ever lost it on clonazepam. Find a new doctor too. You don't want someone who is not open to all solutions. It's like many people on this forum - they complain about GPs and endocrinologists all the time because they have no frigging idea what they are doing with TRT and are working in the dark ages of the treatment. The solution - get a new doctor.

Do you really believe that 25mg of Zoloft is going to somehow damage or kill you? See a psychiatrist and be open and honest with them and see where they want to go. They understand reluctance and will often work with you to start you off with dosages you are comfortable with.

If you keep saying I'm not going to do this or that, or I'm unhappy and can't study, and my family is driving me nuts, how do you think you are going to recover? You need to try something.

Let's put it this way - if you do nothing your situation will probably get worse. What do you have to lose at this point? I have 25 stents and I experiment on myself all the time with new supplements and drugs. If I have a bad reaction or they don't work, I stop them. These are all prescribed by the way and related to TRT and the building blocks necessary to get off TRT.

There is nothing wrong with working with a knowledgeable professional to see if there is something that you can get started on. So here is a little tough love - quit complaining and do something before it's too late. Complaining is not going to fix your issue. I have a great deal of empathy for you, but somebody needs to tell you to shit or get off the pot. It's your life, quit being scared of everything and find help. Work slowly. I'm not stating you should start a cocktail of drugs or high dosages of anything. Start small and see what happens. What is wrong with that?

 

[dalbert]

@ structure

With all due respect but I think you are making this look way too easy.

This is NOT about repeating a "class". I am talking about the final exams which decide everything.
You cannot repeat them as often as you want. I am talking about studying something for 6 years and then it all comes down to the final exams! That is an insane pressure and when you're 30 and cannot afford doing any more mistakes then it is an even more insane pressure.

And floaters can also be totally depressing. I am not alone with this. There are other floater sufferers who even quit their jobs because of this. Maybe you could take this easy and not bother but not all people can do this. For me being outside in the sun or also during normal light is a torture, believe me that. And no positive thinking or trying to ignore the floaters helps.

@ pauladrive

Thanks for the list. Unfortunately I cannot work out anymore. I got too many injuries. My body didn't tolerate working out very well. Working out was the last fun thing I had in life and I also lost this a few years ago.

@ gmerits

Does zoloft also contain fluoride? And does it have many scary side effects? I know exactly if I get it and then read the manual and if it has many side effects then I won't dare to take it.
And another problem is, what if I start with something like zoloft and then have to watch out for many drug interactions and cannot use things anymore which I used before? For example sometimes I take a betablocker before a test to keep the pulse down. I don't know if I could still do this when I take something like zoloft. Or what if I am on zoloft and then get anxiety and wanted to take a tranquilizer? Most likely I could not do this when I also take zoloft right?

And would zoloft also help against ocd kind of thoughts and anxiety in general or only against depression? I'm not sure what kind of drug would be best for me. I needed something against depression and anxiety. Depression alone would be not optimal.

What I also worry about isn't just testing something and if it doesn't work then getting off it again. What if someone's depressed and then takes an SSRI like zoloft and feels worse and then gets off it but the drug has somehow changed something in the brain and now he's off even worse than before? Is this possible? That's scary.

Same statements, same circumstances, different internal model of your relationship. It is not her that makes you happy or sad - it is you. Never give anyone that power. And remember this - in a depressed state you can and will be your own worse enemy and continue to make yourself miserable and possibly blame others or some condition for your ailments and feelings. The only way out is to break the cycle. Notice you are doing it and bring your attention back to the real world and out of your head. I usually don't give this type of advice until somebody is past a depression, but you seem unwilling to take medication.

The thing is you can know something in theory and then still not be able to do it. A fat guy may also know that he should eat clean but then he doesn't have the strength to. I have also moments where I think that I'm going to rule over my emotions and thoughts and I really wish it was that simple. I REALLY wish I could stabilize myself and not always have ups and downs with much more downs than ups but then I am simply unable to put it into practice. Many times I wake up in the morning and already feel miserable and simply have no hope and then I cannot simply motivate myself. I have listened to theories and tricks to motivate yourself. Sure, you can motivate yourself. You can tolerate a lot and go through shit if you have some hope to look forward to. But what if you have no hope what do you do then? What if you have nothing which keeps you going? I wish I had a stable hope which I can hold on to but I haven't. It's always ups and downs. If I feel normal during the day then I feel depressed when the night comes and so on. I am totally not used to not being depressed I don't even think if I could deal with this. And I also really don't know how I could not be depressed with all the stuff I see every day. Even if I had no problems with my health and studying I'd still have more than enough reasons to be depressed because of my family. How could I not be depressed when others who I care about have problems and I can't help them?
I'd feel guilty if I was happy and lived like everything's fine cause it's not.

 

[GirlyMan]

I'm a nihilist dalbert. I don't think there's any ultimate meaning to any of this pointless bullshit and when I'm dead it's over, I'm gone, I'm out. I came upon that realization some 30 years ago when I was in my late teens. It wasn't depressing then, it was exhilarating. For the next 3 decades that realization ceased to be exhilarating and became depressing, to the point of suicide in more than one instance (not out of despair, but out of a rational argument in my head about whether or not to continue to participate in this pointless bullshit). I was on a shitload of different SSRIs throughout those 3 decades to try and deal with it. But all I really needed was to get my T levels back to where they were when I first realized it. Now I find it exhilarating again. There's no point in offing myself because there's no point to anything. Might as well just ride it out, it'll all be over soon enough of its own accord.

 

[Structure]

With all due respect but I think you are making this look way too easy.

This is NOT about repeating a "class". I am talking about the final exams which decide everything.
You cannot repeat them as often as you want. I am talking about studying something for 6 years and then it all comes down to the final exams! That is an insane pressure and when you're 30 and cannot afford doing any more mistakes then it is an even more insane pressure.

And floaters can also be totally depressing. I am not alone with this. There are other floater sufferers who even quit their jobs because of this. Maybe you could take this easy and not bother but not all people can do this. For me being outside in the sun or also during normal light is a torture, believe me that. And no positive thinking or trying to ignore the floaters helps.

I'm not trying to say that getting out of depression is easy, but I am trying to say that your judgment is off. There's no easy way to convince you of this, but the way you are thinking about your situation is definitely not right, and your assessment of your problems is way off.

It is the nature of the beast; this is how depression works. I don't expect that you'll suddenly realize that your judgments are flawed (if it was that easy, then no one would get depressed), so the best I can do is give you examples. When you compare how you see other people's problems (like girls with eating disorders) vs. how they see their own problems, it becomes a little easier to see how someone can be so convinced that their situation is hopelessly dire, when in fact it is manageable. To any person that is suffering from major depression, their problems are intolerable. However, other people who are not depressed can have these very same problems, and consider them manageable (albeit unpleasant).

So while it's true that there's nothing easy about pulling yourself out of depression by your own bootstraps, it's also true that every person with a graduate degree has gone through the exact same stress of these finals that you speak of. And everyone has setbacks in life like disease, accidents, etc. And its normal to dislike the stress, and to be sad when setbacks happen. The part that's destructive is when your attitude about these setbacks starts causing you more quality of life issues than the setbacks themselves do. Getting stuck in this pattern of thinking is depression.

If it was easy to see it when it was happening, then no one would get depressed. But trust me, this is what is happening to you.

 

[pauladrive]

It us difficult to get through your post, but, IMO, your thoughts appear to be racing after each other. I would make an appointment with a healthcare provider at the minimum. If you can, try to organize your thoughts, take your time, and write out the concerns. Bring this with you to the appointment. For now, try to slow down - easier said than done, i know!

I agree Dr.Scally , A buddy of mine had similar symptoms one of the suggestions the psychiatrists and gave him an assignment in the therapy session , told him was to make a list and make 3 columns

1) Extreme present situation causing symptoms of depression.

2) Any past experiences that contributed to present state of depression.

3)Goals

Then they organized his thoughts and made him use one sentence to describe one situation, this made him think shorten it out . In sessions they broke the list down along with further counseling and a prescription of antidepressants . There's many places that will help individuals with depresion some at no cost to you thru the state but my point the help is out there , i wanted to share this to add to your thought Dr. Scally and thank you sir for your guidance for us all.


I found a list of free discreet counselors on the phone that you can talk with , even online discreet chat with certified counselors /nurses , there are many options here and its all free here is the link its a great tool they are there 24/7 Professional medical /counselors . Free stress help, mental health, self-help, depression, anxiety, online counseling, internet counseling, free counseling, CBT, REBT, Rational Emotive Therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, ABC worksheet, herbal supplements, herbs depression, anger ma

 

[james2012]

@ structure

With all due respect but I think you are making this look way too easy.

This is NOT about repeating a "class". I am talking about the final exams which decide everything.
You cannot repeat them as often as you want. I am talking about studying something for 6 years and then it all comes down to the final exams! That is an insane pressure and when you're 30 and cannot afford doing any more mistakes then it is an even more insane pressure.

And floaters can also be totally depressing. I am not alone with this. There are other floater sufferers who even quit their jobs because of this. Maybe you could take this easy and not bother but not all people can do this. For me being outside in the sun or also during normal light is a torture, believe me that. And no positive thinking or trying to ignore the floaters helps.

@ pauladrive

Thanks for the list. Unfortunately I cannot work out anymore. I got too many injuries. My body didn't tolerate working out very well. Working out was the last fun thing I had in life and I also lost this a few years ago.

@ gmerits

Does zoloft also contain fluoride? And does it have many scary side effects? I know exactly if I get it and then read the manual and if it has many side effects then I won't dare to take it.
And another problem is, what if I start with something like zoloft and then have to watch out for many drug interactions and cannot use things anymore which I used before? For example sometimes I take a betablocker before a test to keep the pulse down. I don't know if I could still do this when I take something like zoloft. Or what if I am on zoloft and then get anxiety and wanted to take a tranquilizer? Most likely I could not do this when I also take zoloft right?

And would zoloft also help against ocd kind of thoughts and anxiety in general or only against depression? I'm not sure what kind of drug would be best for me. I needed something against depression and anxiety. Depression alone would be not optimal.

What I also worry about isn't just testing something and if it doesn't work then getting off it again. What if someone's depressed and then takes an SSRI like zoloft and feels worse and then gets off it but the drug has somehow changed something in the brain and now he's off even worse than before? Is this possible? That's scary.



The thing is you can know something in theory and then still not be able to do it. A fat guy may also know that he should eat clean but then he doesn't have the strength to. I have also moments where I think that I'm going to rule over my emotions and thoughts and I really wish it was that simple. I REALLY wish I could stabilize myself and not always have ups and downs with much more downs than ups but then I am simply unable to put it into practice. Many times I wake up in the morning and already feel miserable and simply have no hope and then I cannot simply motivate myself. I have listened to theories and tricks to motivate yourself. Sure, you can motivate yourself. You can tolerate a lot and go through shit if you have some hope to look forward to. But what if you have no hope what do you do then? What if you have nothing which keeps you going? I wish I had a stable hope which I can hold on to but I haven't. It's always ups and downs. If I feel normal during the day then I feel depressed when the night comes and so on. I am totally not used to not being depressed I don't even think if I could deal with this. And I also really don't know how I could not be depressed with all the stuff I see every day. Even if I had no problems with my health and studying I'd still have more than enough reasons to be depressed because of my family. How could I not be depressed when others who I care about have problems and I can't help them?
I'd feel guilty if I was happy and lived like everything's fine cause it's not.

Zoloft works on OCD at higher dosages. I have not heard of it affecting the action of a beta blocker, but I would tackle that problem with clonazepam which does tackle anxiety issues, OCD, and unstable mood disorder. It may be all you need given that it looks to me like you are probably unstable in your mood and not just depressed. I would see a psychiatrist asap.

 

[james2012]

I'm a nihilist dalbert. I don't think there's any ultimate meaning to any of this pointless bullshit and when I'm dead it's over, I'm gone, I'm out. I came upon that realization some 30 years ago when I was in my late teens. It wasn't depressing then, it was exhilarating. For the next 3 decades that realization ceased to be exhilarating and became depressing, to the point of suicide in more than one instance (not out of despair, but out of a rational argument in my head about whether or not to continue to participate in this pointless bullshit). I was on a shitload of different SSRIs throughout those 3 decades to try and deal with it. But all I really needed was to get my T levels back to where they were when I first realized it. Now I find it exhilarating again. There's no point in offing myself because there's no point to anything. Might as well just ride it out, it'll all be over soon enough of its own accord.

If one is intellectually honest, then one has to admit that nihilism is a faith-based belief. What happens when you negate nihilism? Read Zen and Western Though by Abe Masao - it will truly open your mind. The nihilists don''t go far enough. Not even close. Negate nothingness and where does that put you?

Sunyata.

 

[GirlyMan]

If one is intellectually honest, then one has to admit that nihilism is a faith-based belief. What happens when you negate nihilism? Read Zen and Western Though by Abe Masao - it will truly open your mind. The nihilists don''t go far enough. Not even close. Negate nothingness and where does that put you?

Sunyata.

Thanks! Yes, [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunyata"]that[/ame] and [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatta"]Anatta[/ame] as well. But nihilism is not a faith-based belief, but rather just a gut feeling in Not. Nihilism does not imply there is no meaning, just that there's no ultimate meaning. There's a shitload of meaning all around us. It's just that it's all local, temporary, and artificial 'cause we're the ones making it. And it's even more meaningful because of its localness, temporariness, and artificialty. But yes, the Buddhists are smiling at us bemusedly wondering why it's taking so long for the rest of us to catch on.

As I told all 4 of my children when they finally got to the maturation point where they asked me about this shit, "You're temporary, I'm temporary, we're all temporary, everything is temporary. Goddam boy, just grow a sack and deal with it." (Well, the daughter did get a slightly different version. )

 

[james2012]

Thanks! Yes, that and Anatta as well. But nihilism is not a faith-based belief, but rather just a gut feeling in Not. Nihilism does not imply there is no meaning, just that there's no ultimate meaning. There's a shitload of meaning all around us. It's just that it's all local, temporary, and artificial 'cause we're the ones making it. And it's even more meaningful because of its localness, temporariness, and artificialty. But yes, the Buddhists are smiling at us bemusedly wondering why it's taking so long for the rest of us to catch on.

As I told all 4 of my children when they finally got to the maturation point where they asked me about this shit, "You're temporary, I'm temporary, we're all temporary, everything is temporary. Goddam boy, just grow a sack and deal with it." (Well, the daughter did get a slightly different version. )

GirlyMan, but it is faith-based. It is not objective - you can't prove that everything is meaningless anymore than can prove (or disprove) the existence of God. You therefore go by your gut and get in to the subjective line of approach. That is the meaning of faith based.

Also, I am talking Zen here, not Buddhism. Zen negates nihilism, Buddhists tend to stop there and hang out. In Zen there is a statement, "if you reduce the many to the one, to what shall you reduce the one"? Nothing, from a Zen perspective, is absolute over its dichotomous partner. Good is not absolute over evil, nothingness from somethingness, being from non-being. As Nagarjuna put it (his thinking is very prevalent in Zen), if you take one of the items in a dichotomy and make it an absolute, the other ceases to be something that humans could even perceive, making the very tension non-existent in the first place.

If there was not evil, we would not have a concept of good. If there was no light, we would not have a concept or word for dark. Therefore, nihilism cannot be an absolute and is on equal par with non-nihilism. In order for two things to be compared they must have something in common. Green and blue are both colors, but green is not blue and blue is not green. Their common ground - the system of colors, is not a color at all but the general concept of color as well as a collection of all the colors themselves without the system taking on the attribute of color. From the "imagined" viewpoint of color the base (or Basho) of color looks like nothing. Not nothing as opposed to something, but more like the space between your thoughts when you are thinking of neither something nor nothing. That real deep unconceptualized emptiness or what William James called pure awareness.

Therefore, being and non-being are on equal turf as well, their base being what is called Sunyata. Each is negated equally into the other and negated as a system into the type of emptiness I mention above. For nihilism the nothing that is the point of the philosophy is the nothing opposed to something, not real nothingness. It still exists as a concept. In Zen, you nullify even that concept and come back into the fullness of being. There being as it is is non-being and visa versa (when looked at from the Basho of the system), but on our level each is its own and relies on the other for conceptualization.

So rather than life being meaningless, it is instead a mystery that cannot be penetrated and all conceptualization is human based attempts to order the world with no real correlates in reality. It is for our benefit only.

Read the book "The Nothingness Beyond God" which goes into the philosophy of Zen from Kitaro Nishada's position and the Japanese Kyoto school of thought. I think you will find it interesting. It blows apart ALL human belief and concepts. It is best described as a radicalization of Buddhism, taking it through to its logical conclusion. There is no Nirvana to rest in peacefully. Even Nirvana is negated and seen as nothing more than the world as it is. This is the concept of the Bodhisattva - one who returns to the world and eschews Nirvana, but from a more philosophical vs. religious point of view.

 

[Curt James]

I'd definitely recommend you pursue the anti-depressants. You certainly seem to have more than justified reason to be depressed. A relative has eczema. What a nasty affliction. They note that it's painful as well as unsightly.

Man, I'd also recommend you break down all your issues and problems into a list and tackle each one separately. All the points you describe -- anyone would feel overwhelmed!

Proper medication may at least help lift your spirits or allow you to feel "normal" and therefore able to approach solving what parts of your dilemma you're able to solve or reduce.

Wishing you success, good sir.

 

[james2012]

I'd definitely recommend you pursue the anti-depressants. You certainly seem to have more than justified reason to be depressed. A relative has eczema. What a nasty affliction. They note that it's painful as well as unsightly.

Man, I'd also recommend you break down all your issues and problems into a list and tackle each one separately. All the points you describe -- anyone would feel overwhelmed!

Proper medication may at least help lift your spirits or allow you to feel "normal" and therefore able to approach solving what parts of your dilemma you're able to solve or reduce.

Wishing you success, good sir.

Curt, while I did agree with your assessment earlier, I did notice that the OP did exhibit symptoms of unstable mood disorder. An anti-depressant would be a band-aid in this case - it was for me through three depressions and various dosages of Zoloft from 50mg/day - 200mg/day. After I found a psychiatrist who saw my affliction for what it was, he put me on only clonazepam (Klonopin) 1mg 5X/day. I have not even come close to a relapse in 5 years.

The sides of Klonopin are minor and don't last long - mostly feeling tired and some folks get a little uneasy on their feet and bump into objects. This can be monitored. The only downside is getting off the stuff. You have to switch to lorazepam and then slowly lower the dosage. Quitting clonazepam too quickly can lead to seizures and other complications - it is addictive. However, many people use it for panic attacks, body dysmorphic disorder, stage fright, generalized anxiety, specific anxiety (like taking tests) and to mitigate or remove social awkwardness, which allows them to feel comfortable around other people and open up and be themselves. The later part alone made a huge difference for me. Instead of staying at home sulking in my self-created misery, going out and meeting people really helped (especially girls!).

Often Eczema is tied to mental disorders - the reduction in the bodies immune system can be severe and often curing the mental issue either cures the Eczema or reduces it to a manageable state that is easily treated by topical medications. Sometimes it does not. It depends on the patient.

Discovery Health "Mental Illness". This shows the ties between mental illness and physical disorders - including eczema. So fix the issue first and see what happens to the eczema. Like Curt says, make a list and tackle them one at a time. As stress, anxiety, and other mental disorders are at the root of many ailments, I would strongly urge tackling these issues first. You may find your list quickly shrinks with fixing just the mental issue. What is left can be dealt with at that time - if there is anything left. You may be surprised just how much addressing your mental issue will address your other issues.

I would counsel seeing a good psychiatrist (this will be the biggest challenge) who knows that SSRIs may not be what is needed in this case. Perhaps a low dose with clonazepam in the short term, and then Clonazepam only. However, only a qualified professional should be making these decisions with the patient. I am only talking about my particular case.

 

[ergomaniac]

GirlyMan, but it is faith-based. It is not objective - you can't prove that everything is meaningless anymore than can prove (or disprove) the existence of God. You therefore go by your gut and get in to the subjective line of approach. That is the meaning of faith based.

Also, I am talking Zen here, not Buddhism. Zen negates nihilism, Buddhists tend to stop there and hang out. In Zen there is a statement, "if you reduce the many to the one, to what shall you reduce the one"? Nothing, from a Zen perspective, is absolute over its dichotomous partner. Good is not absolute over evil, nothingness from somethingness, being from non-being. As Nagarjuna put it (his thinking is very prevalent in Zen), if you take one of the items in a dichotomy and make it an absolute, the other ceases to be something that humans could even perceive, making the very tension non-existent in the first place.

If there was not evil, we would not have a concept of good. If there was no light, we would not have a concept or word for dark. Therefore, nihilism cannot be an absolute and is on equal par with non-nihilism. In order for two things to be compared they must have something in common. Green and blue are both colors, but green is not blue and blue is not green. Their common ground - the system of colors, is not a color at all but the general concept of color as well as a collection of all the colors themselves without the system taking on the attribute of color. From the "imagined" viewpoint of color the base (or Basho) of color looks like nothing. Not nothing as opposed to something, but more like the space between your thoughts when you are thinking of neither something nor nothing. That real deep unconceptualized emptiness or what William James called pure awareness.

Therefore, being and non-being are on equal turf as well, their base being what is called Sunyata. Each is negated equally into the other and negated as a system into the type of emptiness I mention above. For nihilism the nothing that is the point of the philosophy is the nothing opposed to something, not real nothingness. It still exists as a concept. In Zen, you nullify even that concept and come back into the fullness of being. There being as it is is non-being and visa versa (when looked at from the Basho of the system), but on our level each is its own and relies on the other for conceptualization.

So rather than life being meaningless, it is instead a mystery that cannot be penetrated and all conceptualization is human based attempts to order the world with no real correlates in reality. It is for our benefit only.

Read the book "The Nothingness Beyond God" which goes into the philosophy of Zen from Kitaro Nishada's position and the Japanese Kyoto school of thought. I think you will find it interesting. It blows apart ALL human belief and concepts. It is best described as a radicalization of Buddhism, taking it through to its logical conclusion. There is no Nirvana to rest in peacefully. Even Nirvana is negated and seen as nothing more than the world as it is. This is the concept of the Bodhisattva - one who returns to the world and eschews Nirvana, but from a more philosophical vs. religious point of view.

like theres two sides to a coin. the absence of something is nothing. and if nothing exists by itself it becomes something. they exist only together. and just account for some kind of isness. that transcends human mind. which is fed through the senses. which have to be interpreted. which give me existence. but isnt really what only is.
am i in the ballpark.

 

[james2012]

like theres two sides to a coin. the absence of something is nothing. and if nothing exists by itself it becomes something. they exist only together. and just account for some kind of isness. that transcends human mind. which is fed through the senses. which have to be interpreted. which give me existence. but isnt really what only is.
am i in the ballpark.

Nothing can't exist by itself for it needs something to define it - to delineate it. I am talking of course of conceptualized nothing. Non-conceptual nothing - the nothing that cannot even be perceived as nothing, is completely unknowable to us. Humans can only know something if they know its opposite as well. If the opposite does not exist, there is no way for us to know any concept. There is a saying in Zen, "As soon as one is aware of good, then evil must exist". If we were blind as a species (literally and not figuratively) we would not have a word for light because we would only know darkness. If darkness is all their is, we would not be aware of it as darkness - it is just how things are. True nothingness is best described as a though experiment - the "space between your thoughts". Does such a space exist? I don't know, but we can think about what it would be like it if did. In this space we don't exists and neither does anything else - not even a conceptualized nothing. This is a true nothingness called Sunyata. But like anything in life, this Sunyata does not last, it gives way to thougts and concepts - the next thought in the sequence of your own thoughts after you leave the "space between your thoughts". So it is not a static thing, but give rise to the richness of experience.

Because all is equal in this true nothingness, it is quite acceptable to also call this a true fullness. This is where nihilism fails. It is not radical enough. Is rests or perches on a conceptualized nothing. What you are left with is the contingent existence of everything - you, me, mountains, trees, concepts. None of them have a self-nature independent of other things but rather exist only in relation to other things.

A good way to look at it is that Zen negates itself, while Nihilism does not. It takes itself as a given without realizing that it could not conceptually exist without its opposite, let's call it non-Nihilism.

Zen rips apart the very fabric of philosophy and thought before finally ripping itself to pieces. One must pass through the state of Nihilism on the way to awakening and this is the most dangerous time for the student for they truly feel Nihilism rather than just think they do. Anybody who has been depressed at a profound level knows what this feels like. It is not easy to describe and is easily the most hellish experience one can go through mentally. I would honestly rather lose a leg than go through another depression, it's that bad.

 

[GirlyMan]

GirlyMan, but it is faith-based.

Calling nihilism faith-based is like calling "off" a TV channel.

But you do seem to be much more reasonable and considered when discussing metaphysics than politics. Is this some sort of Machiavellian tactic you like to use or are you just schizophrenic when it comes to certain topics?

 

[Curt James]

Calling nihilism faith-based is like calling "off" a TV channel.

But you do seem to be much more reasonable and considered when discussing metaphysics than politics. Is this some sort of Machiavellian tactic you like to use or are you just schizophrenic when it comes to certain topics?

My favorite channel!

 

[dalbert]

@curtjames

I am mostly depressed because of problems which I can't change. If I could fix all my health issues I'd be much less depressed but I cannot and most of them also cannot be treated so there isn't much I could do against them and also hearing some ridiculous advice from a psychologist like focus on other people or why don't you help old people in your free time and get the thoughts off yourself would only piss me off. I don't need to hear this kind of trivial shit and I also don't want to hear someone belittling my problems and telling me that they aren't really that big. It's easy to say such stuff when you do not have these problems.

@structure

My problems are not like a girl who thinks she has a fat ass and is depressed. I'd really like to see how you would feel if you were me. Do you have any diseases? Do you have a comparable family situation? Are your parents in bad health? Do you have a relative who has been in a mental clinic? Do you have genetic diseases? Can you not work out anymore because your body doesn't tolerate it?`Do you have aches and pains in your body which others in your age do not have? Do you have a shitload of stress with studying and fear for your future? I bet you have not many of these things and you think you know how it's like to be me and think you can tell me that my perception is twisted? I cannot take this seriously unless it comes from someone in an equal situation and even then it would be relative. Not everybody deals with issues the same. Just because there are people in a wheelchair who are still happy doesn't mean everybody can do that.

@ gmerits

Klonopin is a highly addictive benzo and no long term solution unless you want to become addicted to drugs. I'm not going to take anything addictive and also no responsible doctor would give this to a patient for long term use.