Immigrant Workers Taking American Jobs

[Beefy]

I need to hear some opinions on this...I run a small construction business. My company currently employees 12 Americans and 2 Mexicans. Up until this past Monday I've only hired US citizens. I've always believed that we should stick together and keep the immigrants in their own countries, unless the immigrants become citizens and pay taxes and everything else. It really use to offend me that immigrants (especially Mexicans) don't assimilate into US culture. They bring their culture here, and it has become part of US culture.

Last Monday I hired 2 Mexicans up here legally with work permits because I can't find Americans to do what I want (show up on time everyday and work hard). These Mexicans have blown me away with their work ethic and discipline. I have a new respect for them and their way of life. They have many friends/relatives that are skilled workers ready to start work as soon as I will hire them. I am not so sure what to do now. If I hire the Mexicans they will almost certainly take the Americans jobs, but they will really help my company grow and profit. All of the Americans that work for me are pissed that I hired Mexicans. I feel like I'm betraying my country in a way.

What would you do? By the way, I pay the Mexicans exactly the same as the Americans and I withold taxes from the Mexicans.

 

[Beefy]

I'll check back tomorrow. From a business standpoint it's a no brainer to hire the more dependable hard worker, but I'm wondering about the ethics of the situation. Should I give Americans the extra favoritism of showing up late alot and basically taking their job for granted just because they are Americans? That is what my American employees say...Go figure. Thanks in advance for the help.

Beefy

 

[Bob Smith]

Thats a tough issue because on one hand hiring the Mexicans will improve your business, but on the other it will, at least for a while, affect morale for the American workers. As much as it may piss off your American workers and as long as the Mexicans are legal, Id go with the Mexicans. As you said, they often have a much better work ethic than our American brethren. As your workers are finding out, they feel entitled to a position rather than feel the need to truly earn it. IMO, theres no room for lazy, unreliable workers.

 

[CyniQ]

Hiring skilled, dependable workers, whenever possible, is a no brainer. I've been in the construction business most of my life. In Texas, immigrant labor is a given. I've never heard of it lowering morale. At least not to any reasonable degree. Most of the companies I've worked with required new hires to provide some sort of ID and a Soc #. That's it. I've had workers picked up by INS and show back up a week later wondering if they could have their jobs back. There are 1.5 million Hispanic illegals in TX alone. Most of them work in construction or landscaping. Do the best you can to hire LEGAL immigrants. Hiring born and bred Americans exclusively is, unfortunately, not good for business (in construction anyway), for exactly the reasons you've mentioned.

 

[Grizzly]

Funny you should bring this up. I was going to make a similar thread due to some shit I heard on the radio.

Real simple answer: If they have papers, ie are LEGAL immigrants, then hire away. If it's some boarder jumping wetback, then tell him to get fucked. There's nothing wrong with hiring someone from another country. Hell, we'd have a line 10 miles long if we insisted all doctor's were Americans by birth.

I also applaud you on paying the same wages. Your workers have no reason to be complaining. Fuck them! The trouble and the anti-beaner sentiment comes when companies illegally hire illegal immigrants at 1/3 the rate they would have to pay an American worker, so they hire 15 Mexicans which takes away that many jobs from legal, US residents. It makes a dude doubly pissed when they hire people at 1/3 the rate and then, come raise time, tell you that there's no extra money laying around and you only get a $800 raise. Oh yeah, and medical coverage went up and we're not paying for it, so I guess you really got a -$500 dollar raise. And then the general manager comes in two days later with a brand new 75,000 dollar car.

Ooops, I think I started to digress there. That's a true story, though.

So, my point is a LEGAL immigrant is as American as you or I. Treat him like an American and pay him like an American. There's nothing wrong with that. Just make sure the dudes are legal.

 

[Beefy]

Yeah, they're all legal. I don't know much about this, unfortunately. I really never thought I'd cross this bridge so I haven't read anything about immigrant workers and the legality of it. I did, however, ask to see their ID and they all have social security cards and immigrant worker id's with their picture and ssn on it. Amazingly enough, the ssn's match up (from the ss cards and picture id's).

These guys (the Mexicans) continue to blow me away. I only want them working 8 hours/day to keep from paying over time, so what do they do? They give me my 8, then they go roof houses until dark everyday. Meanwhile, I've got guys (Americans) with every opportunity in the world to make great money and they don't even care to show up most of the time.

Thanks for the advice, bros.

 

[joeycrabcakes]

it's a no-brainer. These people arent your friends, they are your employees. You hire them to do a job, and you should seek out the most qualified, hardest working individual to help your BUSINESS, not your social relationship. Like all said, if they are totally legit, then they arent doing anything different then our ancestors did when they got here to provide a better life for us. The view that your american employees have are only shared by other lazy spoiled americans, not the general public. Anybody in their right mind, especially anybody thats business minded, will agree and support what you are doing.

 

[Kayz]

As a business owner myself, I share your hardships when it comes to finding hard working individuals who are ambitious and driven to do a good job. They are a very rare breed in this country!!! I commend you for doing the right thing and doing what you need to do to improve your business....good job!! Assuming they are legal and everything is legit, I say hire all the goddamn Mexi's you possibly can if you can't find Americans to work.

And don't let anyone say to you: "you are giving American jobs away". Because you are NOT doing that. Just look them right in the eye and say "...I'm not giving shit away...the American workers can do that all by themselves."

 

[Grizzly]

Meanwhile, I've got guys (Americans) with every opportunity in the world to make great money and they don't even care to show up most of the time.

Thanks for the advice, bros.

Which makes me wonder what the hell is wrong with my owners. I'm here everyday, ON TIME everyday and working 2 hours after everyone else has gone home everyday and I STILL get paid horseshit.

Sorry, not really on the topic but I felt like bitching.

 

[Bob Smith]

Which makes me wonder what the hell is wrong with my owners. I'm here everyday, ON TIME everyday and working 2 hours after everyone else has gone home everyday and I STILL get paid horseshit.

Sorry, not really on the topic but I felt like bitching.

No kidding! Companies want great workers, but they usually dont recognize them when theyve got em, and they certainly dont pay the workers what theyre worth.

 

[CyniQ]

No kidding! Companies want great workers, but they usually dont recognize them when theyve got em, and they certainly dont pay the workers what theyre worth.

You can't really pay people "what they're worth". No offense, but I think it's a ridiculous concept. You get paid what the JOB is worth. If you're an MBA who washes dishes for a living...

 

[Kayz]

You can't really pay people "what they're worth". No offense, but I think it's a ridiculous concept. You get paid what the JOB is worth. If you're an MBA who washes dishes for a living...

Bingo!!!! This is one of the biggest misconceptions that people have. If everyone was paid what they "thought" they are worth, none of us could afford to buy anything in this country. For example, we have several people whose job is to fill and cap bottles. There is no skill involved in this whatsoever and no higher education required; thus, these workers are typically those with a lower level of education and no skills. In my area, these menial laborers make about $9/hr....that's it. Now, these are reallly really good people, and I'd love to pay them all $20/hr., but I can't. 35% of our cost of goods goes to burden and overhead. So, if you pay according to the person and not the job, your costs will skyrocket out of control.

Now, what we do is this: we find the good workers whom are dedicated, loyal, and honest and we hire them on full time (i.e.: they dont get laid off in the down season), put them on our insurance for themselves and their family members, enroll them in our simple IRA retirement plan (we match 3% each year), and train them for further responsibilities.

Many workers fail to count "benefits" as part of their salary....that cost is HUGE and getting bigger and bigger each year.

 

[Grizzly]

A lot of employers overstate their benefit contributions. From what I head, when I go in to receive my raise this week, I will be shown a pie chart demonstrating how I make 75,000 dollars a year. I don't even get paid a third of that.

For one, all expenses the company accrues in labor(salary, benefits, whatever else) is tax deductible. Right? It's an operating expense. So, the 27k they pay me only really costs them 18k.

There's an interesting saying I heard that goes something like, "Employers pay the least amount of money they can without having the employee quit and employees do the least amount of work than can do without being fired."

It might be true. When I first started, I did everything I possibly could. When they tried to Jew(literally) me out of my 6 month raise and I realized how badly they lied to me, I stopped going out of my way. If humping doesn't get met with a comensurate increase in rate of pay, then I'll be damned if I'm working my ass off for people who won't even show appreciation.....and then come in the next day in a 75 thousand dollar car.

 

[Kayz]

Grizz...it sounds like you have an asshole for a boss to be honest with you. And you are right; when an employee does not feel appreciated, it is difficult for the employee to reciprocate.

As far as deducting all the costs a company accrues in labor...it varies greatly. What most companies (at least smaller companies) try to do is show as little profit as possible to the IRS, but enough to keep the banks happy so they don't recall the notes (assuming there are loans carrying a balance out there). Every so often though, it's good to "lose" money because an incorporated company can then go back 2 years to recoup taxes for that one year (or a company can defer the tax reimbursement for 2 years). Now, many people think this is wrong (it is perfectly legal and in fact encouraged by bean counters and tax attorneys) and it will negatively impact the workers. I would argue to the contrary in that it helps the employees; unless of course the owner goes out and buys a company Ferrari. But, if a company updates/modernizes equipment to make the job of the employees easier and also decreases the chance of human error, then everyone wins. Now many employees dont' see it that way because they aren't seeing anymore money on their next check..but they can't think long term.

If a company saves $100K in taxes, invests that money in new equipment to run more efficiently.....in a few years the companies investment will begin to pay off, resulting in pay raises for those employees who deserve it.

Now, maybe I'm being naive in that many employers are greedy pieces of shit who care only about the almighty dollar, but not all of them. I like to think my dad and I take very good care of our employees and compensate them very well. You will NEVER see me driving a fancy car as that is just not me. I drive a 2000 Trans Am. While a nice car, it is nowhere near a BMW or Benz. My dad drives a Dodge pick up truck.

 

[Bob Smith]

You can't really pay people "what they're worth". No offense, but I think it's a ridiculous concept. You get paid what the JOB is worth. If you're an MBA who washes dishes for a living...

Right, I agree that the pay obviously has to fit with what the job duties are. But most companies dont pay that well for any given set of job duties/skills required. I know that one of the largest banks in the US has different pay scales for each position based on region (cost of living). They have a Market Point for every position, which is essentially what the position is worth and what other companies are paying (based on a lot of research). This particular bank wont pay more than 80% of the Market Point. Thats bullshit. And even when some employees do excel, they dont get shit for raises or recognition. Again, this doesnt apply to every single company, there are of course some exceptions.

 

[Bob Smith]

Kayz, from how you have described your business over the past months, you are certainly in the minority in terms of how businesses treat and compensate their employees. And by no means do I think the owners of a business shouldnt reap the rewards of running a successful operation. What pisses me off, and which Grizz has so aptly described, is that so many owners basically do their best to rip of the employees as much as possible. Unpaid forced OT, no raises for years, and other tactics to screw the employee so that the owner can pocket a little bit more every year. IMO, thats wrong and bad business.

My mom interviewed and was offered a position in a private medical practice recently. The owner (a doctor) has 2 or 3 offices in 2 states. He pays well, has good benefits, 8-5 everyday (no OT or wknds), and at the end of the year, he gives every employee a bonus that totals about 30-40% of the profit of the entire business. THAT is a good boss. But unfortunately they are too few.

And the problem is even worse when companies get larger and larger, like the aforementioned national bank. In companies that large, employees arent people, they are simply cogs in the wheel and are all easily replaceable. They dont give a rats ass if someone quits because the pay sucks or their manager is a douchebag with no leadership abilities, there will be some other cog to fill the space in 2 days.

 

[CyniQ]

I agree with you BS and Grizz on the point that too many employees are treated and paid poorly. Grizz will probably chastise me for believing in invisible forces referred to in books but...

Anyone heard of Adam Smith and his Invisible Hand? Of course you have, you're all college educated (sarcasm not intended a viciously as it reads ).

"...every individual necessarily labours to render the annual revenue of the society as great as he can...by directing that industry in such a manner as its produce may be of the greatest value, he intends only his own gain, and he is in this, as in many other cases, led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his intention...By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of the society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it."

In a free market these things work themselves out. If an employer pays to little, find one more suitible to your needs. If an employee performs less fantastically than expected, replace him with one more suitible to your needs.

Side Note: I'm rather surprised to read such idealism from your hand BS.

 

[Bob Smith]

Im just pissed that Im having such a freakin difficult time finding a real job. My degree is in finance, my background is in sales, Im working on my MBA, I have a high IQ, blah blah blah and I cant find an f'in job!! I see complete retards getting jobs, so why am I having such a difficult time?

 

[Kayz]

Kayz, from how you have described your business over the past months, you are certainly in the minority in terms of how businesses treat and compensate their employees. And by no means do I think the owners of a business shouldnt reap the rewards of running a successful operation. What pisses me off, and which Grizz has so aptly described, is that so many owners basically do their best to rip of the employees as much as possible. Unpaid forced OT, no raises for years, and other tactics to screw the employee so that the owner can pocket a little bit more every year. IMO, thats wrong and bad business.

My mom interviewed and was offered a position in a private medical practice recently. The owner (a doctor) has 2 or 3 offices in 2 states. He pays well, has good benefits, 8-5 everyday (no OT or wknds), and at the end of the year, he gives every employee a bonus that totals about 30-40% of the profit of the entire business. THAT is a good boss. But unfortunately they are too few.

And the problem is even worse when companies get larger and larger, like the aforementioned national bank. In companies that large, employees arent people, they are simply cogs in the wheel and are all easily replaceable. They dont give a rats ass if someone quits because the pay sucks or their manager is a douchebag with no leadership abilities, there will be some other cog to fill the space in 2 days.

I'll give you a very good example of a shitty boss. One of our bigger customers (and also a vendor) is about an $80 million company. one guy owns it all and he is very active in the day to day operations. He and my dad are pretty good buddies in that they always have lunch together to talk business and where we are headed. Overall, he's a pretty nice guy...but pretty much all of his employees (i.e.: from order entry to the truck drivers) are fucking assholes. They are miserable and it is because they are underpaid. Hell, the owner has told me personally that he doesn't pay his people much at all.

Anyways, about 4 months ago, I met with him for a few hours to talk about a few things. When I pulled into the lot I saw a BRAND NEW BMW 760 Li sitting there with his vanity plates on it. I said to him "nice car....what'd that set you back". He just smiled and said "...about $130K". IMO...that is just wrong. He lives in about a $3 million dollar house about 120 miles away and has a very nice apartment here in town where he works during the week.

We also recently found out that he has been fucking us on price a little bit. We didnt' get mad, we just took our $1.6 million account elsewhere!!!

As far as "bonuses" go....I hate that word. I prefer "profit sharing" because that is what it actually is. However, once an employee gets a "bonus" they EXPECT it each and every year. Well, sometimes the money just isn't there to give out. Back in 1999, we had a record year. After all the bills were paid, and after all the money was set aside needed to run the company during our slow season...we had about $900,000 left over in "bonus" money. Now, my dad could have taken every bit of that for himself and noone ever would have known...but he didn't. He took a "bonus" of $250K for himself and the rest was split amonst the employees. The 6 women who work in the actual office who enter orders and do the billing/accounting each got $10K!!! And one of them was actually upset because we had to take tax out!!!! Truck drivers, depending on how long they'd been with us, got between $6k adn $13K each!!!

The employees loved us to death that year; but they expected the same thing th efollowing year. But, we just couldnt' do it.......we had a down year and there was no money left. In fact, every year since 1999 we've had to borrow against our line of credit in our down season to make payroll. But, the employess (especially truck drivers) have the "what can you do for me today" attitude.

 

[Kayz]

Im just pissed that Im having such a freakin difficult time finding a real job. My degree is in finance, my background is in sales, Im working on my MBA, I have a high IQ, blah blah blah and I cant find an f'in job!! I see complete retards getting jobs, so why am I having such a difficult time?

Unfortunatley Bob, many times it is a matter of being in the "right place at the right time". 2 examples:

1) A good friend of mine I went to high school withis now making about $130K a year with just a HS diploma. He installs fiber optic cable lines for high speed internet and data transfer for some huge international company. He travels all over the US and ahs all expenses paid. I asked him one day....how the hell did you land that job?? He said "man, I was justin the right place at the right time....I was talking to some dude and he gave me his card....".

2) My parents neighbors are in their mid 30's. Both of them are pullilng down about $150K a year selling pharmaceuticals. Neither of them have business backgrounds, but they did have some sales experience. Now, pharmaceuticals sales is almost IMPOSSIBLE to get into because it's so competitive. BOTH of these people just "fell" into it. Some company needed help and they stumbled across and ad in the paper and got the job.

Many times, it's just a matter of circumstance.