Injectable estradiol (e2) source

[Brave00]

MENT was not "developed" as a T replacement, it was investigated for this use and never approved.

The studies show that MENT produces a highly potent aromatic product, despite your interpretation. I am rather familiar with the matter, see: MENT Profile

Nandrolone, unlike MENT, has actually been approved for this use (it's used successfully by women as well).

The important point is this: while aromatizing androgen can be used to modulate T/E2 ratio with all the benefits of in situ aromatization, there is no justification for consuming exogenous estrogens in your case. Go ahead, though, you seem very experienced.

Mes culpa, it was “in development” as a Test replacement.

I am familiar with the potency of methyl e2 but you seem to already know why I need to supplement e2 as it’s stated in your profile:

One of the primary factors in it being dropped was that at such a dosage there was insufficient estradiol conversion and activity at such dosages.

Nandrolone HRT requires exogenous e2 as well so I’m not sure what your issue is other than you don’t seem to like MENT as HRT.

 

[Type-IIx]

Mes culpa, it was “in development” as a Test replacement.

I am familiar with the potency of methyl e2 but you seem to already know why I need to supplement e2 as it’s stated in your profile:



Nandrolone HRT requires exogenous e2 as well so I’m not sure what your issue is other than you don’t seem to like MENT as HRT.

I admit to not liking MENT much and to a bias of sorts, as I tend to hyperfocus on it as being a "messy" compound with its binding affinity for ERs, PR, AR, GR, likely MR. But that MENT profile is objective, yes.

With respect to nandrolone, it doesn't require the use of exogenous estrogens, though low aromatization is a problem for some at TRT doses, it's best used in combination with a testosterone transdermal patch.

I am intimately aware of the importance of sufficient estradiol to support bone, muscle, sexual function, glucose & lipid metabolism in men. But exogenous estrogens (even environmental exposure) is contraindicated, whereas aromatizing androgens can be used to modulate the T/E2 ratio.

Might I suggest nandrolone rather than MENT, perhaps with some other aromatizing androgen, commercially available there is EQ, which is quite hair friendly? EQ alone might even serve your purposes well.

 

[Brave00]

I admit to not liking MENT much and to a bias of sorts, as I tend to hyperfocus on it as being a "messy" compound with its binding affinity for ERs, PR, AR, GR, likely MR. But that MENT profile is objective, yes.

With respect to nandrolone, it doesn't require the use of exogenous estrogens, though low aromatization is a problem for some at TRT doses, it's best used in combination with a testosterone transdermal patch.

I am intimately aware of the importance of sufficient estradiol to support bone, muscle, sexual function, glucose & lipid metabolism in men. But exogenous estrogens (even environmental exposure) is contraindicated, whereas aromatizing androgens can be used to modulate the T/E2 ratio.

Might I suggest nandrolone rather than MENT, perhaps with some other aromatizing androgen, commercially available there is EQ, which is quite hair friendly? EQ alone might even serve your purposes well.

I appreciate the advice so if you don't mine let me give you more context for more complete advice. I was on trt and finasteride (with sides) for 10+ years before it got so bad I was going to have to shave it. I tried nandrolone only, which I did not love because of the androgenic/adrenergic stimulation was too low, as well as a feeling of general stress or nervousness. On top of that my e2 was definitely too low for part of that time, even at 175mg/week. I added MENT to that and played with doses a while but still was not happy with the feeling. Bloods and bp were pretty good on almost anything above but my diet is great, plenty of cardio, and relevant supplements.

Since my OP here I have tried to drop ment to 220mcg/day ment ace, 175/week deca, and 3mg/day primo E and have maybe never felt better. The primo offset the stress/nervousness of nandrolone (it kind of feels like high cortisol though I think deca should lower it so idk). The deca has completely stopped my hair loss. I'd like a little more adrenergic stimulation but test is out and MENT is a little harsher on my hair than I'd like for now.

I may drop ment to 0 and see how the deca/primo feel but my primary concern is that I assume test/ment must fulfill some biological processes that deca/primo do not, though I am maybe a year into the steroid world so that is an uninformed assumption.

You suggest EQ and you seem smart and informed so now I'm going to assume your reply to this will tell me I don't need MENT/test and I can use deca/primo so that's good but I still have the e2 issue. I am using approximately 1/2-3/4mg oral e2 (still dose finding) daily. What do you recommend here: drop MENT and up deca? I am confused by your EQ recommendation though as it doesn't really aromatize so please do explain. Appreciate your input.

 

[Type-IIx]

I appreciate the advice so if you don't mine let me give you more context for more complete advice. I was on trt and finasteride (with sides) for 10+ years before it got so bad I was going to have to shave it. I tried nandrolone only, which I did not love because of the androgenic/adrenergic stimulation was too low, as well as a feeling of general stress or nervousness. On top of that my e2 was definitely too low for part of that time, even at 175mg/week. I added MENT to that and played with doses a while but still was not happy with the feeling. Bloods and bp were pretty good on almost anything above but my diet is great, plenty of cardio, and relevant supplements.

Since my OP here I have tried to drop ment to 220mcg/day ment ace, 175/week deca, and 3mg/day primo E and have maybe never felt better. The primo offset the stress/nervousness of nandrolone (it kind of feels like high cortisol though I think deca should lower it so idk). The deca has completely stopped my hair loss. I'd like a little more adrenergic stimulation but test is out and MENT is a little harsher on my hair than I'd like for now.

I may drop ment to 0 and see how the deca/primo feel but my primary concern is that I assume test/ment must fulfill some biological processes that deca/primo do not, though I am maybe a year into the steroid world so that is an uninformed assumption.

You suggest EQ and you seem smart and informed so now I'm going to assume your reply to this will tell me I don't need MENT/test and I can use deca/primo so that's good but I still have the e2 issue. I am using approximately 1/2-3/4mg oral e2 (still dose finding) daily. What do you recommend here: drop MENT and up deca? I am confused by your EQ recommendation though as it doesn't really aromatize so please do explain. Appreciate your input.

EQ does in fact aromatize at roughly 58% the rate of T. You will find that it principally (but not entirely) aromatizes to estrone (E1; a weak estrogen).

I recommend trying EQ for your needs. Alternatively, increase the Deca (though frankly, it sounds like you'd need a high dose).

MENT/Test/Deca/Primo do not serve different biological functions as you seem to believe. They are androgens. Rather, T is the "bioidentical" androgen that acts via the Δ4 & Δ5 pathways to provide basic functioning for Aromatase, 5α-R. Other androgens, rather than providing "bioidentical" replacement sit in functionally similarly to T, but not quite T in terms of metabolism.

It sounds like for your purposes, EQ is what you should give an earnest try. Its metabolites are not hair-unfriendly, it is generally (not universally, of course) well tolerated at low doses (women handle it well even). It's what makes the most sense to me in this case.

 

[Brave00]

EQ does in fact aromatize at roughly 58% the rate of T. You will find that it principally (but not entirely) aromatizes to estrone (E1; a weak estrogen).

I recommend trying EQ for your needs. Alternatively, increase the Deca (though frankly, it sounds like you'd need a high dose).

MENT/Test/Deca/Primo do not serve different biological functions as you seem to believe. They are androgens. Rather, T is the "bioidentical" androgen that acts via the Δ4 & Δ5 pathways to provide basic functioning for Aromatase, 5α-R. Other androgens, rather than providing "bioidentical" replacement sit in functionally similarly to T, but not quite T in terms of metabolism.

It sounds like for your purposes, EQ is what you should give an earnest try. Its metabolites are not hair-unfriendly, it is generally (not universally, of course) well tolerated at low doses (women handle it well even). It's what makes the most sense to me in this case.

This is all interesting and helpful. Might you explain a bit more as to why exogenous e2 is inferior to estrogen produced by aromatizing androgens, especially those that would aromatize to e1? Especially in the case where I'd have to hypothetically use a much higher dose of a compound in order to not have to supplement exogenous e2?

 

[Type-IIx]

This is all interesting and helpful. Might you explain a bit more as to why exogenous e2 is inferior to estrogen produced by aromatizing androgens, especially those that would aromatize to e1? Especially in the case where I'd have to hypothetically use a much higher dose of a compound in order to not have to supplement exogenous e2?

Exogenous estrogens (even in low concentrations as from environmental exposure to estrogens far less potent than estradiol) cause male reproductive pathologies. Exogenous estrogens increase IGFBP-1, which reduces IGF-I bioavailability. It is in situ aromatization (process) that is beneficial in men: that is, aromatizing androgens provide via estrogens for optimal male sexual functioning, lipid management, bone growth, glucose & lipid metabolism, muscle function, etc. Further, it is of great practical benefit to maintain a positive androgen:estrogen (ratio) by the use of aromatizing androgen, as it is this balance that controls male sexual functioning (preventing as well gynecomastia).

 

[Type-IIx]

Exogenous estrogens also dramatically increase SHBG. Etc. Aromatic products (even E₂) are not equal to exogenous estradiol in physiological effects.

 

[Brave00]

Exogenous estrogens (even in low concentrations as from environmental exposure to estrogens far less potent than estradiol) cause male reproductive pathologies. Exogenous estrogens increase IGFBP-1, which reduces IGF-I bioavailability. It is in situ aromatization (process) that is beneficial in men: that is, aromatizing androgens provide via estrogens for optimal male sexual functioning, lipid management, bone growth, glucose & lipid metabolism, muscle function, etc. Further, it is of great practical benefit to maintain a positive androgen:estrogen (ratio) by the use of aromatizing androgen, as it is this balance that controls male sexual functioning (preventing as well gynecomastia).

I was under the impression that bioidentical estradiol (not oral e2 that skews towards e1) did not increase IGFBP-1, TBG, or SHBG; skew lipids, or the rest, i.e. I thought it was indistinguishable from aromatized e2. How is that not the case?

What about in situ aromatization is beneficial to men beyond simply providing the e2 to serve biological processes? I am interested to learn more about this.

Would not, e.g. 175mg nandrolone and partial transdermal/injectable bioidentical e2 provide both a sufficient androgen:estrogen ratio and an optimal amount of e2?

Especially in the case of boldenone, where it aromatizes primarily to e1, would it not definately be beneficial to provide some exogenous e2 (not oral) that results in a more natural androgen:e2 and e1:e2 ratio that males naturally have?

Again, appreciate the info as I definitely have some gaps in my knowledge here.

 

[Type-IIx]

I was under the impression that bioidentical estradiol (not oral e2 that skews towards e1) did not increase IGFBP-1, TBG, or SHBG; skew lipids, or the rest, i.e. I thought it was indistinguishable from aromatized e2. How is that not the case?

What about in situ aromatization is beneficial to men beyond simply providing the e2 to serve biological processes? I am interested to learn more about this.

Would not, e.g. 175mg nandrolone and partial transdermal/injectable bioidentical e2 provide both a sufficient androgen:estrogen ratio and an optimal amount of e2?

Especially in the case of boldenone, where it aromatizes primarily to e1, would it not definately be beneficial to provide some exogenous e2 (not oral) that results in a more natural androgen:e2 and e1:e2 ratio that males naturally have?

Again, appreciate the info as I definitely have some gaps in my knowledge here.

Cooke PS, Nanjappa MK, Ko C, Prins GS, Hess RA. Estrogens in Male Physiology. Physiol Rev. 2017 Jul 1;97(3): 995-1043. doi:10.1152/physrev.00018.2016.

Veldhuis, J. D., & Bowers, C. Y. (2003). Human GH pulsatility: An ensemble property regulated by age and gender. Journal of Endocrinological Investigation, 26(9), 799–813. doi:10.1007/bf03345229

Damewood MD, Bellantoni JJ, Bachorik PS, Kimball AW Jr, Rock JA. Exogenous estrogen effect on lipid/lipoprotein cholesterol in transsexual males. J Endocrinol Invest. 1989 Jul-Aug;12(7):449-54. doi:10.1007/BF03350728.

 

[All Nats McGee]

If you want this for hair loss why not just run lower amounts of test? 60-90mg ew. All those compounds combined is def more androgenic then a normal TRT dose. Less androgens less hair loss.