Input Needed: Theory on going natural

Stez

New Member
I am 22 years old, 6' 1", about 82kg's or 180lbs. Worked out for 4-5 years.

Been on HRT for 6months. Currently on Test Enanthate 125mg E5D, 300iu HCG E4D or E5D, and aromasin as my anti-e which ive just started at 10mg ED.

Before HRT these were my labs:
Total Test: 13 (10-33) (was 10 on first test, but that was slightly later in day)
Free Test: 34 (60-130)
LH: 7 (3-20)
FSH: 3 (3-20)
TSH: 2.2 (0.4-4.0)
SHBG: 10 (13-71) this was actually taken after starting HRT.

Had all the symptoms of low test.

I didn't have any estrogens checked (doc wouldn't go for it).

Before HRT my BF% was always around the same at about 15% (at a guess). I had a very "soft" physique even though I trained and ate extremely well. I trained with a competitive bodybuilder (natural) and we shared the same intensity training and diets. I could never gain much LBM at all, and my bf% would never really change. Even when I tried his competition cutting diet, my bf PERCENTAGE didn't really drop. Many people commented on how my muscles were "soft". I was in decent "shape" though.

Since being on HRT I've felt great, lost fat, gained lbm etc etc. Mojo was not good though. My estrodiol was tested twice and was:
E2: 236 (40-250) both times.

Since using an anti-e my sex function has improved and I get night/morning wang. What I noticed with the anti-e though, is that I lost a lot of water retention, my muscles seem a lot harder, and I just have a more "athletic" look. I didn't bloat or gain any noticable (visible or scales) weight from the testosterone enanthate injections.

This is where I come to my theory. My natural Total Test was not obscenely low. Everything else was reasonable, except FSH which was on the bottom of the chart. Now, what if naturally I had high Estrogen (explains the watery body composition and inability to drop bf%)? This is what I'm thinking. So what if I was natural and took an anti-e such as DIM or nolva, thus reducing estrogen and creating a negative feedback to my HPTA which would in turn increase testosterone production. Perhaps even take a low dose of clomid to stimulate LH and FSH a bit more. So basically a mild version of a bodybuilder's PCT. My thyroid was normal and the doc said my balls were alright size.

If I can go natural I want to.

What do you guys think about this possibility? If only I had a blood test that showed my Estro before HRT I would know for sure, but I am not lying when I describe how well I ate and how hard I trained and how my Bodyfat PERCENTAGE was just a bitch, and how soft my muscles were, and how this has all changed with only a low dose anti-e (will get my e2 checked soon to see how much 10mg aromasin lowered it).

So the end goal:
Take an anti-e (nolva or DIM) -> reduce estrogen -> increase test via negative feedback -> live happily ever after.


I have been on HRT 6months so I need a program to re-kick my HPTA into action, it has to be good.

I'm thinking along the lines of:
Nolva @ 20mg ED with:
2 weeks of HCG @ 250-300iu EOD
Followed by 2 weeks of Clomid @ 50mg ED
Tapering down over the next 2 weeks.
Tapering down the nolva to 10mg EOD.

Then when everything is settled, say 1month after stopping clomid, taking a blood test to see where I'm at.

I'm young and only been on HRT 6months. If I'm to try anything to get natural then this is the time to do it. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thank You.
 
Here lies the problem of a Dr. not getting to the bottom of why you were low. I have seen this so many times I have lost count. In the day when I was being sent to Endo's to try to get me feeling better the Endo would have me stop all of my T meds for any where from 4 weeks to 8 weeks. I am primary this means my testis don't work to make T. All this has done for me was to make me very sick so sick that I could not work.
But my Dr. when he first tested me some 21 yrs. ago did not know about high E2 in men and most don't know today.
I have in all my conversions with men that have tried this ever seen one that got started back on his testis making the T.
I know of one man that has been shout down from using Propecia and got his testis working again but have now Idea how he did it so I am going to try and find the post.
Here it is you read the post from the bottom to the top. A cut & paste you could try sending him an E-Mail if it is still good. joeferriesallstars@yahoo.com
Phil
From: "joeferriesallstars" <joeferriesallstars@...>
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:58 pm
Subject: Re: Blood Tests -Very Interesting joeferriesal...
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Send Email

--- In hypogonadism2@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Harvey"
<bruceharvey@d...> wrote:
Iused a combination of Clomid,HCG, Tamoxifen and Arimidex to restart
my HPTA after Propecia use. I used steroids 7 years earlier which may
have contributed to the problem.

Amazing the different numbers on the tests only minutes apart
>
> MFB,
>
> Good to hear from you. Great news, did you do anything in particular
to get
> back to normal?
>
> And dude, what exactly were you doing during those 5 minutes? :)
>
> Bruce
>
> --- In hypogonadism2@yahoogroups.com, "joeferriesallstars"
> <joeferriesallstars@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Hey Phil/Army and the other long time members here it's MFB, remember
> > me from the Propecia problems I had ? I'm glad to say I'm fully back
> > to normal without any drugs for over 6 months now.
> >
> > I was in my Dr's office about two weeks ago and we were discussing
> > blood tests and how inacurate they can be, to prove this my Dr decide
> > to draw my blood and send it out to Quest and also gave me a slip that
> > i took downstairs to the Quest lab in his building right after he drew
> > my blood 5 minutes before.
> >
> > Test results from my Dr's draw
> >
> > Total T 710
> >
> > E2 34
> >
> > sensitive E2 37
> >
> >
> > From Quest's Draw
> >
> > Total T 585
> > E2 less than 32
> >
> > sensitive E2 24
> >
> > Since I only had T and E2 tested both draws were for only one tube of
> > blood
 
Swale, I know u can't really give me too much in the way of personal advice on an internet forum, but I was hoping u could answer this question:

Have u ever seen cases of young men who had all their labs pretty normal except naturally high estrogen and lowish testosterone? If so, have u tried or heard about it being corrected by using nolva or something similar? ie. lower estro, create neg feedback -> raise test production.
 
Lastly, what would be the best anti-e to use for my plan?

Nolva
Aromasin, or
DIM


?

Seeing as it would be a long-term plan if it worked, I suppose DIM would be the best choice as it is natural? However, I read an article that said Nolva is good at boosting the HPTA...
Not so much info on aromasin, but I am on it 10-15mg a day now with HRT and it's doing good.

Anyone?
 
Why is a-dex so popular? It's such a powerful drug....

I've read studies where nolvadex is shown to boost the HPTA, not just thru negative feedback. This sounds more ideal as my long term anti-e to try and create a "natural" balance.

Just to reiterate, the plan is to get off HRT and be completely clean. Then take a maintenance dose of Nolva to lower estro and increase natural test.

So instead of TRT, I would just be on nolva for life, or extended future at least. (if it works).
 
SPE said:
DIM and small amounts of arimidex.
When my Dr. see a new guy he checks about the same a SWALE does and if his T is low and E2 is high he puts him on Arimidex 1/2 a pill everyday for 4 weeks and checks his blood. I if his E2 came down and his T went up he puts him on Indolplex/DIM to keep it normal and if this does not do the job then he adds .25 mgs. of Arimidex starting at every 5 days.
But he told me this is short lived after a time the T goes back down and they need to go on TRT anyway.
Here is a link.
http://www.medibolics.com/ArimidexBoostsTestosterone.htm
Phil
 
u just broke my heart pmgamer :(

So it has never worked as a long-term solution?

I don't really understand everything in that study, but via negative feedback I'd have thought any anti-e would boost the hpta, im just wondering which would be the best and safest for long term use.
 
I'm very skeptical that your estrogen was significantly elevated prior to your HRT and that simpy taking DIM, without any form of TRT, will provide you with adequate free testosterone levels. The exogenous testosterone and hCG likely now give rise to your E2, but even before the Aromasin it was not substantially elevated (although it was elevated enough to show a need for an E2 management)

Taking a SERM will elevate your testosterone, but many guys on SERMs don't experience the subjective benefits on TRT. SWALE mentions this in his paper and many guys have come around and reported same.

The regimen that you are on right now looks to be pretty good, however. Your physician isn't as clueless as most physicians. What area are you in?
 
Stez said:
u just broke my heart pmgamer :(

So it has never worked as a long-term solution?

I don't really understand everything in that study, but via negative feedback I'd have thought any anti-e would boost the hpta, im just wondering which would be the best and safest for long term use.
Don't be upset these men are over 45 yrs. old your 22. Stop taking everything and see what happens. Like I have said seeing Endo's they at least 8 times in the last 21 yrs. had me stop everything to retest me. I got very sick because I am primary and my Testis can't make enough T to keep me healthy. Just stop everything for 4 weeks and get tested. One of the guys at Hyp.2 group tryed Androgel for 4 weeks and his levels went down. So he stopped the andorgel and that was 3 weeks ago he is doing fine next week he is getting a blood test to see if his levels came up. So to tell if you need T stop and if you get sick like I did and you feel you can't go on like that then you may need TRT. But if you don't feel all that bad stay off it and get tested in 4 weeks and see where you are. If I was your age I would try this.
Phil
 
Ok thanks mate.

I know that if I don't try this now, I'll always wonder. I know SWALE mentions people taking clomid don't get the active benefits...

I believe I have got my HRT _very_ close to on the mark now so if my plan doesnt work then I can just go back to my regime and be good within a couple of weeks again, rather than the 6months of trial and error it has taken me to get here.

It's gonna be a hard road going off hrt and dealing with all the sides, but it's something I think i gotta do just to know for sure.
 
Stez said:
Ok thanks mate.

I know that if I don't try this now, I'll always wonder. I know SWALE mentions people taking clomid don't get the active benefits...

I believe I have got my HRT _very_ close to on the mark now so if my plan doesnt work then I can just go back to my regime and be good within a couple of weeks again, rather than the 6months of trial and error it has taken me to get here.

It's gonna be a hard road going off hrt and dealing with all the sides, but it's something I think i gotta do just to know for sure.

Good Luck Stez.......your a young guy..you will be ok
 
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