Long Term HCG Induced Testicular LH Desensitization

[NoRevolution]

just a question, you talk about hcg desinsitation:
what about your testes size?

Testes never shrunk at all. 25ml+ as measured by orchidometer.

Another data is strange and i think that maybe here is the error:
700 or 900 ng dl of T from just 875 ui hcg week (250 eod is 875 mg week) is a lot...
Usually is difficult obtain more then 400/500 at that dosage.
If so a lot of peole could stay on trt with just 250 ui eod of hcg....

Idk, I had a 4 week washout period of 600mg/week Test-E before that test so part of it could be 200-300 ng/dl residual test in the system. Even so, that would still be 600 ng/dl+ being produced.

There appears to be a diminished response of the testes to LH and FSH after prolonged suppression thereof. Effectively inducing primary hypogonadism to one degree or another. This usually appears to resolve quite quickly (matter of weeks) when LH & FSH levels are increased again after coming off. There's no reliable data on this in regard to long-term AAS use. I've seen some autopsy reports indicate fibrosis of the testes in (ex) AAS users, but this is a far cry from a causal link.

Desensitization as proposed in OP doesn't occur in response to hCG, even with years of use. The drug has been prescribed for ages in treatment of (congenital) secondary hypogonadism.

Thanks so much for the additional info on this! So the general consensus here is that it's something else that is causing the desensitization not the HCG? Do we have any info on the mechanism / studies?

 

[ManK]

Testes never shrunk at all. 25ml+ as measured by orchidometer.

Idk, I had a 4 week washout period of 600mg/week Test-E before that test so part of it could be 200-300 ng/dl residual test in the system. Even so, that would still be 600 ng/dl+ being produced.

Thanks so much for the additional info on this! So the general consensus here is that it's something else that is causing the desensitization not the HCG? Do we have any info on the mechanism / studies?

Well
if you talk about "desensitization" , it contrast with the fact you exposed that your testes are fine and not shrunked at all.
If they are not shrunked it mean they work.
Ok but they PRODUCE few testosterone, but this is another problem.
I think that the problem is the TIMING:
Time need to make GROW LH at a level usually highr then when you was natural in the first phase.
you wrote you stay off since six months.... BUT after FIVE years without FULL riactivation and re balance of your hpta.
I make my exemple: i made 2,5 years trt- cycle- trt- cycle: blast and cruise; as you i always used hcg during all this time (2 x 400 ui week that is near your 875ui week).
When i stopped and riactivated fter 2,5 years, i used 6 months to re gain 399 ng dl and other 2 months to arrive until 4.5 ng dl.
And i used clomid for 150 days...
Then i retunerd ON making cycle and trt again for 1,5 years...
after this time i used only 4 months to return to 4.5 ng dl and i made clomid for 80 days.
Probably in your case FIVE YEARS deactivated it needMORE time then me.

Consider i am 50 y old ...

 

[Biggerp73]

That your testes are the same size seems to me to indicate that they have not been desensitized, because if they were inactive, they should have shrunk

 

[NoRevolution]

That your testes are the same size seems to me to indicate that they have not been desensitized, because if they were inactive, they should have shrunk

That's the most confusing thing about it! Same size throughout this entire 5-year period of HCG use, but a drastic decrease in the testosterone response to HCG (600-900 ng/dl to 50 ng/dl).

Have a look at these two studies:

Kinetics of the steroidogenic response to single versus repeated doses of human chorionic gonadotropin in boys in prepuberty and early puberty ​

Effect of an antiestrogen on the testicular response to acute and chronic administration of hCG in normal and hypogonadotropic hypogonadic men: tamoxifen and testicular response to hCG ​

Could it be that HCG usage, whilst continuing to stimulate the testes, blocks the 17,20 Lyase enzyme from converting 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone into androstendione. Thus, inducing an accumulation of the former and depletion of the latter (and therefore testosterone)?

Or am in just "nuts"

 

[ManK]

That's the most confusing thing about it! Same size throughout this entire 5-year period of HCG use, but a drastic decrease in the testosterone response to HCG (600-900 ng/dl to 50 ng/dl).

Have a look at these two studies:

Kinetics of the steroidogenic response to single versus repeated doses of human chorionic gonadotropin in boys in prepuberty and early puberty ​

Effect of an antiestrogen on the testicular response to acute and chronic administration of hCG in normal and hypogonadotropic hypogonadic men: tamoxifen and testicular response to hCG ​

Could it be that HCG usage, whilst continuing to stimulate the testes, blocks the 17,20 Lyase enzyme from converting 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone into androstendione. Thus, inducing an accumulation of the former and depletion of the latter (and therefore testosterone)?

Or am in just "nuts"

your study talk about:
6000 ui weeks!!!!!! (and yes is proved is a dosage that desentize).
Just under your posted study i found this one:

Testicular responsiveness following chronic administration of hCG (1500 IU every six days) in untreated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism - PubMed

The observation that the testosterone (T) response to a single intramuscular injection of hCG is prolonged suggests that currently used regimens (2-3 injections per week) to stimulate endogenous androgen secretion in hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH) patients have to be reassessed. Moreover...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[ManK]

That's the most confusing thing about it! Same size throughout this entire 5-year period of HCG use, but a drastic decrease in the testosterone response to HCG (600-900 ng/dl to 50 ng/dl).

Have a look at these two studies:

Kinetics of the steroidogenic response to single versus repeated doses of human chorionic gonadotropin in boys in prepuberty and early puberty ​

Effect of an antiestrogen on the testicular response to acute and chronic administration of hCG in normal and hypogonadotropic hypogonadic men: tamoxifen and testicular response to hCG ​

Could it be that HCG usage, whilst continuing to stimulate the testes, blocks the 17,20 Lyase enzyme from converting 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone into androstendione. Thus, inducing an accumulation of the former and depletion of the latter (and therefore testosterone)?

Or am in just "nuts"

the link to the FIRST study don't work, give always the second study.

 

[NoRevolution]

the link to the FIRST study don't work, give always the second study.

Kinetics of the steroidogenic response to single versus repeated doses of human chorionic gonadotropin in boys in prepuberty and early puberty ​

 

[NoRevolution]

Also these ones are interesting as well:

Regulation of Primate Testicular Luteinizing Hormone Receptors and Steroidogenesis​

Serum 17-hydroxyprogesterone strongly correlates with intratesticular testosterone in gonadotropin-suppressed normal men receiving various dosages of human chorionic gonadotropin ​

And to contrast, something supporting the 19-nor affects theory:

Effects of nandrolone decanoate on expression of steroidogenic enzymes in the rat testis.​

 

[ManK]

Also these ones are interesting as well:

Regulation of Primate Testicular Luteinizing Hormone Receptors and Steroidogenesis​

Serum 17-hydroxyprogesterone strongly correlates with intratesticular testosterone in gonadotropin-suppressed normal men receiving various dosages of human chorionic gonadotropin ​

And to contrast, something supporting the 19-nor affects theory:

Effects of nandrolone decanoate on expression of steroidogenic enzymes in the rat testis.​

if you need pubmed studies to persecute yourself about something and condemn yourself to TRT for the rest of your life, go ahead, no one will ever be able to counter your thought.
I am an OLD, almost 51 years old, who has been "playing" with steroids for 9 years and despite all this I have not desensitized anything ...

 

[ManK]

but if you keep looking online, surely, believe me, you will find everything you need to give you good reasons:
There are good reasons online for everything, including that the earth is flat

 

[NoRevolution]

but if you keep looking online, surely, believe me, you will find everything you need to give you good reasons:
There are good reasons online for everything, including that the earth is flat

No worries man was just trying to provide some studies for constructive discussion. I'll try not to go nuts talking about nuts

It seems the consensus/takeaway here is that in the long term, HCG desensitization really isn't a thing. But don't expect HCG to counter the negative endocrinological effects of 19-nors, which can have direct damaging effects on the testes. Do you guys have any research relating that I can look over? Here's one I came across:

Taurine protects steroids users' testes

 

[GuerillaPete]

No worries man was just trying to provide some studies for constructive discussion. I'll try not to go nuts talking about nuts

It seems the consensus/takeaway here is that in the long term, HCG desensitization really isn't a thing. But don't expect HCG to counter the negative endocrinological effects of 19-nors, which can have direct damaging effects on the testes. Do you guys have any research relating that I can look over? Here's one I came across:

Taurine protects steroids users' testes

Just take the good old taurine !
If you are extra paranoid add rFsh or Hmg to the hcg.
Or try clomid or enclomiphene with hcg!
Or throw the kitchen sink at it and do all!
Studies are laking in this departament sadly!

 

[KingDHT]

There appears to be a diminished response of the testes to LH and FSH after prolonged suppression thereof. Effectively inducing primary hypogonadism to one degree or another. This usually appears to resolve quite quickly (matter of weeks) when LH & FSH levels are increased again after coming off. There's no reliable data on this in regard to long-term AAS use. I've seen some autopsy reports indicate fibrosis of the testes in (ex) AAS users, but this is a far cry from a causal link.

Desensitization as proposed in OP doesn't occur in response to hCG, even with years of use. The drug has been prescribed for ages in treatment of (congenital) secondary hypogonadism.

I can confirm this, sadly. I got primary hypogonadism from a 1 year blast and cruise. During this B&C i didn't take any HCG since i dont like the estrogenic effects it has, and people told me the balls will come back after the cycle anyway. They didn't. When i stopped this B&C 4 years ago , lh and fsh returned at normal level within 4 weeks, but the balls just never responded. My LH and FSH are very high now, well above the high range and my test level is around 200ng/dl..

The atrophy is also severe, around 10ml per balls. Pretty pathetic and ridiculous. My semen is extremely watery and i am currently infertile.

Last year i tried proviron only cycle, within 2 weeks my semen became very thick and white, which make me think the sertoli cells are still able to produce sperm when there is enough intratesticular androgen activity. So i think my leydig cells are damaged but not my sertoli cells.

So be careful and never run a long cycle without HCG or some kind of testicles stimulation

 

[KingDHT]

No worries man was just trying to provide some studies for constructive discussion. I'll try not to go nuts talking about nuts

It seems the consensus/takeaway here is that in the long term, HCG desensitization really isn't a thing. But don't expect HCG to counter the negative endocrinological effects of 19-nors, which can have direct damaging effects on the testes. Do you guys have any research relating that I can look over? Here's one I came across:

Taurine protects steroids users' testes

Hcg does protect the testis, even when youre on 19-nors. The damage is caused by lack of FSH and LH activity in the testis, which increase the level of Reactive Oxygen Species in the testis. Elevated levels of ROS cause apoptosis (cell death) and fibrosis.

 

[Trapjunky]

@NoRevolution just curious if you used 250Iu 3x Weekly for the Post Cycle Therapy/ Recovery as well considering you were already primed or did you up the dose?

 

[afterdarkkk]

I believe you are misunderstanding what these studies are describing when talking about desensitization. It is not some type of permanent desensitization, they are talking about a sort of saturation level of HCG... meaning if you took 3000iu HCG to stimulate testosterone production, testorone levels would significantly increase... but then the next day or a few hours later etc, if you took another 3000iu, the leydig cells would not respond to the second dose, they need a few days before they respond again. I wasn't able to see any literature that you posted that any chronic dosing would cause permanent desensitization, in fact there was a study that you posted which showed that dosing bi weekly after a year still showed excellent responses.

I think the issue might be that you are taking too low of a dose of HCG. You are taking enough to provide feedback to HPG axis to not produce its own, but not enough to actually significantly increase test levels. I would sugg either increasing dose to 2-3000 iu bi weekly or just discontinue completely

 

[ManK]

as wrote Peter bond....

 

[LW64]

Nice thread...

Yes, the 250 IU dose does not sound like nearly enough for recovery, especially after repeated, extended periods of steroid use - even if it was used as a maintenance dose while using T. When suppression is in battle with recovery because you're doing both at the same time, suppression usually wins.

Also correct that 'desensitization' isn't reality. What is real, however, is that when someone is using HCG for YEARS - and then you get into your late 40s, 50s and 60s - what looks like 'desensitization' is really the gradual reduction in the ability of Leydig cells to generate T due to...AGING.

 

[Henchus maximus98736]

Does not occur