Low dose deca- water retention question

[Mfras]

Howdy!

First my question for the TLDR crowd, then detailed info for the harm reduction and scientist crowd to pick on me or answer better given more info:

On 80mg/week Deca (as an experiment in old fart joint comfort) would you expect to see water weight come on? How much and after how much time?

Details and background:
6’ 3” 259lbs total, 210 lean mass 47yo
Training sleep and diet are dialed in- 1950cals, 220g protein, 5 day split, walking.

Water intake is ok I usually hit .75-1.25 gal/day. Tracking lifts, dexa, bloodwork, body measurements. Recent bloods are better than ever. 25-30lbs left to cut then maintainance/true TRT health cruise planned for the summer. Lost 115lbs fat and gained 20lbs lean mass in the past 2-3 years of steady discipline, 90% just on TRT, recently went to a mild stack to hopefully continue to recomp as things get harder under 20%bf. Still mild but a little wild for me- I prioritize health but only plan on around 20ish weeks on this stack. Have experience with managing mild higher blasts, including test, mast, and NPP in the past. Not expecting miracles still just looking for 1-1.25lbs fat/week and hoping to continue to grow or at least not lose strength if possible while chasing my leanest ever.

Current stack about a month in:
Split mon weds fri:
300 test Cyp
100 mast

Split Tues Fri
80 deca (new only 2.5 weeks in)
2.5 reta

Split AM PM
4iu GH

I had like two odd days of sneakers feeling tight since I started GH but I think it was salt & water intake related- no other water sides, wedding ring still loose. Sleep like a baby.

I’ve experienced like 10lbs water on and offboarding NPP but have no deca experience and this is such a low dose (but hopefully high enough to notice joint improvement if not much else?) and from what I’ve read deca takes forever before you notice anything even at true cycle dosages? Same with on cycle water retention?

So now that I wrote a boring novel about myself in case details would be helpful to way smarter and more experienced folks. I’d love to hear anybody’s experience with water weight on different doses of deca. Obviously we’re all different but it can be helpful to hear about other people’s results, and I’m curious plus searching didn’t turn up anything on this specific topic.

Thanks!

 

[Mfras]

Saying 19% is obese … just stop goading. That isn’t helpful.

19%?! Hey man I’m at 17% now!
haha thanks though

Getting down to 15% should take about another 6 weeks but it’s gonna be a slog down to 12% and lower. I’m equipped for it though.

19% looks way better on a young bodybuilder with tight skin that overshot a bulk than an old fat guy getting in shape but I think the nastiest fat will be gone by 15% and I’ll start looking more like I actually lift.

Gonna maintain and tighten up on a trt health phase for summer then blast a little closer to fall.

 

[BALLISTIC]

Howdy!

First my question for the TLDR crowd, then detailed info for the harm reduction and scientist crowd to pick on me or answer better given more info:

On 80mg/week Deca (as an experiment in old fart joint comfort) would you expect to see water weight come on? How much and after how much time?

Details and background:
6’ 3” 259lbs total, 210 lean mass 47yo
Training sleep and diet are dialed in- 1950cals, 220g protein, 5 day split, walking.

Water intake is ok I usually hit .75-1.25 gal/day. Tracking lifts, dexa, bloodwork, body measurements. Recent bloods are better than ever. 25-30lbs left to cut then maintainance/true TRT health cruise planned for the summer. Lost 115lbs fat and gained 20lbs lean mass in the past 2-3 years of steady discipline, 90% just on TRT, recently went to a mild stack to hopefully continue to recomp as things get harder under 20%bf. Still mild but a little wild for me- I prioritize health but only plan on around 20ish weeks on this stack. Have experience with managing mild higher blasts, including test, mast, and NPP in the past. Not expecting miracles still just looking for 1-1.25lbs fat/week and hoping to continue to grow or at least not lose strength if possible while chasing my leanest ever.

Current stack about a month in:
Split mon weds fri:
300 test Cyp
100 mast

Split Tues Fri
80 deca (new only 2.5 weeks in)
2.5 reta

Split AM PM
4iu GH

I had like two odd days of sneakers feeling tight since I started GH but I think it was salt & water intake related- no other water sides, wedding ring still loose. Sleep like a baby.

I’ve experienced like 10lbs water on and offboarding NPP but have no deca experience and this is such a low dose (but hopefully high enough to notice joint improvement if not much else?) and from what I’ve read deca takes forever before you notice anything even at true cycle dosages? Same with on cycle water retention?

So now that I wrote a boring novel about myself in case details would be helpful to way smarter and more experienced folks. I’d love to hear anybody’s experience with water weight on different doses of deca. Obviously we’re all different but it can be helpful to hear about other people’s results, and I’m curious plus searching didn’t turn up anything on this specific topic.

Thanks!

At 80 mg week of NandroD, you should not expect water retention, but as you said we're all different. The deca bloat reputation comes almost entirely from high doses combined with test aromatization, not from nandrolone alone. Nandrolone does not aromatize strongly and at 80 mg week you’re generating only a small estrogen signal from it. The majority of your estrogen is coming from the 300 mg test, which you’ve already been tolerating without water issues. Deca’s water retention is wstrogen mediated, very much dose dependent, and due to long ester accumulation.

At your dose, you are getting collagen synthesis and reason why it's still prescribed greatly. Synovial fluid increase will provide joint lubrication. That’s why low dose NandroDhas been used clinically for anemia, osteoporosis, and joint pain for decades without edema.

HGH causes renal sodium retention. In simple terms, GH tells your kidneys to hold salt, and where salt goes, water follows. That water first shows up in, feet ankles hands rings shoes feeling tight puffy fingers in the morning. It happens fast usually within 3 to 14 days of starting or increasing HGH. At 4iu this isn't uncommon and occurs in the first month for sure. Good news is you have a definite sign it's working outside labs.

NPP will also cause these same symptoms in many as it enters fast, and clears fast.

 

[Mfras]

At 80 mg week of NandroD, you should not expect water retention, but as you said we're all different. The deca bloat reputation comes almost entirely from high doses combined with test aromatization, not from nandrolone alone. Nandrolone does not aromatize strongly and at 80 mg week you’re generating only a small estrogen signal from it. The majority of your estrogen is coming from the 300 mg test, which you’ve already been tolerating without water issues. Deca’s water retention is wstrogen mediated, very much dose dependent, and due to long ester accumulation.

At your dose, you are getting collagen synthesis and reason why it's still prescribed greatly. Synovial fluid increase will provide joint lubrication. That’s why low dose NandroDhas been used clinically for anemia, osteoporosis, and joint pain for decades without edema.

HGH causes renal sodium retention. In simple terms, GH tells your kidneys to hold salt, and where salt goes, water follows. That water first shows up in, feet ankles hands rings shoes feeling tight puffy fingers in the morning. It happens fast usually within 3 to 14 days of starting or increasing HGH. At 4iu this isn't uncommon and occurs in the first month for sure. Good news is you have a definite sign it's working outside labs.

NPP will also cause these same symptoms in many as it enters fast, and clears fast.

I may be confused but you mention "this stack" are you referring to T Dose and the Mast? Does that include the NandroD also? If so I'd say that's hardly a stack but more along the lines of TRT+ if you will. At this doses. I also am in my 40s, prescribed 325 T, and 150 NandroD. HGH is also prescribed but I use UGL just for transparency. COST

Edit: never mind my apology I just read through it again. Ignore my last paragraph.

Yes sir- I’m calling it a mild cutting stack- if 200t is legit replacement then my + is 100T 150mast 80deca. (And gh). Can’t stay here forever but it’s working nicely and no drama. I’m a large human and not inexperienced but still very aware that I’m at 530mg/week total exposure which would be a healthy blast for a newby. Feels like 330mg though since 200 is the normal forever cruise.

Appreciate the water insight! My wedding ring is getting loose these past months and lower calves aren’t showing sock lines so I think I’m doing well with the water. Feel wise I could probably tolerate a bunch more GH but I think I’m optimized for cutting and recovery and I’ll go down to a lower dose with trt after the cut.

It’s really interesting being on a dialed cut- having my cals macros water training and recovery basically the same every week allows me to really see water noise on the scale, regular progress & occasional sudden little events of fat mobilization in the mirror & with tailors tape. And of course the effects of different compounds.

I need a lot of patience but feel really well equipped to reach my goals. Even outside of gear there are so many diet and training levers to pull and see what happens, and I’m anticipating effects will be clearer and more magnified once I’m lean.

Thanks for the thoughtful and detailed response.

 

[Billbo98]

I’ll just tell you that E2 and diet heavily influence water weight. That said if your chunky and we’re even chunkier than you are now before your dealing with a whole other animal. When your really chunky and slim down you still have those fat cells and when they’re emptied from fat loss phases they still exist and can easily fill with water when overfeeding of carbs and fluid and salt intake promote glycogen storage etc. Low dose deca by itself shouldn’t be causing water retention. Now if your on 200-300mg + 200-300mg T + GH then yeah your orob gonna hold excess water no matter what especially if you were heavier than you are now before at some point. Ex fat guys have a hard fucking time with water man lol

 

[Billbo98]

Yes sir- I’m calling it a mild cutting stack- if 200t is legit replacement then my + is 100T 150mast 80deca. (And gh). Can’t stay here forever but it’s working nicely and no drama. I’m a large human and not inexperienced but still very aware that I’m at 530mg/week total exposure which would be a healthy blast for a newby. Feels like 330mg though since 200 is the normal forever cruise.

Appreciate the water insight! My wedding ring is getting loose these past months and lower calves aren’t showing sock lines so I think I’m doing well with the water. Feel wise I could probably tolerate a bunch more GH but I think I’m optimized for cutting and recovery and I’ll go down to a lower dose with trt after the cut.

It’s really interesting being on a dialed cut- having my cals macros water training and recovery basically the same every week allows me to really see water noise on the scale, regular progress & occasional sudden little events of fat mobilization in the mirror & with tailors tape. And of course the effects of different compounds.

I need a lot of patience but feel really well equipped to reach my goals. Even outside of gear there are so many diet and training levers to pull and see what happens, and I’m anticipating effects will be clearer and more magnified once I’m lean.

Thanks for the thoughtful and detailed response.

TRT is simply whatever hormones or combo of them puts you in physiological ranges I.e. normal ranges if your 1000+ total T Let’s not kid ourselves that isnt TRT. Dave Crossland talks about this often on Think Big Podcasts DNS. That said I would say your amount is a very mild cycle looks like a total mg of 330?

 

[Mfras]

TRT is simply whatever hormones or combo of them puts you in physiological ranges I.e. normal ranges if your 1000+ total T Let’s not kid ourselves that isnt TRT. Dave Crossland talks about this often on Think Big Podcasts DNS. That said I would say your amount is a very mild cycle looks like a total mg of 330?

This is a stale post bourne of curiosity back then. The deca mast & extra test came out a while back and no water left with them, or if the deca brought water it was not a lot and left slowly and quietly. Last dexa reported +3lbs fat free mass up to 213 and lower fat- steady linear trends on both. And the increased tissue is not outside the dexa margin of error but does line up with mild strength increases and slow progressive overload. So I’d say that in a cut while trying to leverage some recomp and training comfort the little stack/cycle was a win, especially since I dropped it before the mild damage started to outweigh the plateaued additional gains as it became the new normal over a few months.

Currently down to 245lbs which based on 212 FFM is solidly 14% fat, and finishing the cut on 160mg/week trt split tues/fri. Looking to hit low 11% in the mid/high 230s and consolidate. Bloods scheduled for the end of the month but more to check on e2 with no AI now that I’m leaner, and z-score on my established GH dose.

I like Dave he’s a funny curmudgeon. He has personally tried all the bad ideas for us and (barely) lived to tell all about it. His semantics are always entertaining especially the “crack on, do what you want and take responsibility for it, but it’s not bloody TRT at 350mg”

 

[Billbo98]

This is a stale post bourne of curiosity back then. The deca mast & extra test came out a while back and no water left with them, or if the deca brought water it was not a lot and left slowly and quietly. Last dexa reported +3lbs fat free mass up to 213 and lower fat- steady linear trends on both. And the increased tissue is not outside the dexa margin of error but does line up with mild strength increases and slow progressive overload. So I’d say that in a cut while trying to leverage some recomp and training comfort the little stack/cycle was a win, especially since I dropped it before the mild damage started to outweigh the plateaued additional gains as it became the new normal over a few months.

Currently down to 245lbs which based on 212 FFM is solidly 14% fat, and finishing the cut on 160mg/week trt split tues/fri. Looking to hit low 11% in the mid/high 230s and consolidate. Bloods scheduled for the end of the month but more to check on e2 with no AI now that I’m leaner, and z-score on my established GH dose.

I like Dave he’s a funny curmudgeon. He has personally tried all the bad ideas for us and (barely) lived to tell all about it. His semantics are always entertaining especially the “crack on, do what you want and take responsibility for it, but it’s not bloody TRT at 350mg”

Hahaha exactly!

 

[toddy3o2]

@Mfras Congrats on the progress so far! I know you said your joints are toast, but have you experienced any relief in pain from the Deca? I’m thinking of adding it myself.

 

[Mfras]

@Mfras Congrats on the progress so far! I know you said your joints are toast, but have you experienced any relief in pain from the Deca? I’m thinking of adding it myself.

Thanks! I’m officially normal dude lean now and healthy but still look like shit because I have some extra skin. Nothing too crazy thankfully but I won’t be on the cover of men’s health magazine any time soon and 9% would look way worse than my planned high 11% consolidation.

My right knee may or may not still have cruciate ligaments and clicks every time I spin a bike pedal but when I push the treadmill past 6mph my joints talk before my wind gives out so I’m happy doing LISS. Got smashed up pretty good crashing motorcycles.

I did 80 deca/week and it didn’t really mess with bloodwork or e2, didn’t give me any noticable strength, but it did give a minor but noticable amount of smoothness on the treadmill, compound lifts, and had to have helped with some favorable environment for tendon and muscle growth. All positives really.

 

[toddy3o2]

Thanks! I’m officially normal dude lean now and healthy but still look like shit because I have some extra skin. Nothing too crazy thankfully but I won’t be on the cover of men’s health magazine any time soon and 9% would look way worse than my planned high 11% consolidation.

My right knee may or may not still have cruciate ligaments and clicks every time I spin a bike pedal but when I push the treadmill past 6mph my joints talk before my wind gives out so I’m happy doing LISS. Got smashed up pretty good crashing motorcycles.

I did 80 deca/week and it didn’t really mess with bloodwork or e2, didn’t give me any noticable strength, but it did give a minor but noticable amount of smoothness on the treadmill, compound lifts, and had to have helped with some favorable environment for tendon and muscle growth. All positives really.

Love to hear it. Thanks for sharing, Bro!

 

[NightBeast666]

Howdy!

First my question for the TLDR crowd, then detailed info for the harm reduction and scientist crowd to pick on me or answer better given more info:

On 80mg/week Deca (as an experiment in old fart joint comfort) would you expect to see water weight come on? How much and after how much time?

Details and background:
6’ 3” 259lbs total, 210 lean mass 47yo
Training sleep and diet are dialed in- 1950cals, 220g protein, 5 day split, walking.

Water intake is ok I usually hit .75-1.25 gal/day. Tracking lifts, dexa, bloodwork, body measurements. Recent bloods are better than ever. 25-30lbs left to cut then maintainance/true TRT health cruise planned for the summer. Lost 115lbs fat and gained 20lbs lean mass in the past 2-3 years of steady discipline, 90% just on TRT, recently went to a mild stack to hopefully continue to recomp as things get harder under 20%bf. Still mild but a little wild for me- I prioritize health but only plan on around 20ish weeks on this stack. Have experience with managing mild higher blasts, including test, mast, and NPP in the past. Not expecting miracles still just looking for 1-1.25lbs fat/week and hoping to continue to grow or at least not lose strength if possible while chasing my leanest ever.

Current stack about a month in:
Split mon weds fri:
300 test Cyp
100 mast

Split Tues Fri
80 deca (new only 2.5 weeks in)
2.5 reta

Split AM PM
4iu GH

I had like two odd days of sneakers feeling tight since I started GH but I think it was salt & water intake related- no other water sides, wedding ring still loose. Sleep like a baby.

I’ve experienced like 10lbs water on and offboarding NPP but have no deca experience and this is such a low dose (but hopefully high enough to notice joint improvement if not much else?) and from what I’ve read deca takes forever before you notice anything even at true cycle dosages? Same with on cycle water retention?

So now that I wrote a boring novel about myself in case details would be helpful to way smarter and more experienced folks. I’d love to hear anybody’s experience with water weight on different doses of deca. Obviously we’re all different but it can be helpful to hear about other people’s results, and I’m curious plus searching didn’t turn up anything on this specific topic.

Thanks!

Deca would have more severe of an impact on water retention in your case, given that NPP did. For me even at 350 Deca, 500 Test, I don't experience much water retention. It might be because I am on a very low sodium diet usually while running nor-19s. Levels of water retention varies even from cycle to cycle. There is nothing to worry about though, because even with otc diuretic supplements, you can take care of the excess water. Drink green tea in copious amounts (3 cups a day) and you'd be pissing away water like a horse.

The muscle building effects of deca is visible even 4 weeks into a cycle. I don't understand who those monsters are, who need to wait a long time to see results. Maybe they aren't eating well. Maybe their workout sucks.

Stop overthinking and just jab that needle in your arse. Not much bad would happen given your tiny dosages and even then, if anything bad happens, you will most probably get the situation in control.

On the taking deca/npp for joint-pain relief, I am not so hopeful of it being a long term solution. Get the issue checked with a doctor and see if stuff like stem call therapy/non-opiod meds could help. You'll most probably be able to get insurance for it.

All the best.

And for the love of everything good, stop calling yourself an old fart. Nowadays we have men 20 year olds looking like 70, with the temparament of post-menopausal women.

 

[Mfras]

Deca would have more severe of an impact on water retention in your case, given that NPP did. For me even at 350 Deca, 500 Test, I don't experience much water retention. It might be because I am on a very low sodium diet usually while running nor-19s. Levels of water retention varies even from cycle to cycle. There is nothing to worry about though, because even with otc diuretic supplements, you can take care of the excess water. Drink green tea in copious amounts (3 cups a day) and you'd be pissing away water like a horse.

The muscle building effects of deca is visible even 4 weeks into a cycle. I don't understand who those monsters are, who need to wait a long time to see results. Maybe they aren't eating well. Maybe their workout sucks.

Stop overthinking and just jab that needle in your arse. Not much bad would happen given your tiny dosages and even then, if anything bad happens, you will most probably get the situation in control.

On the taking deca/npp for joint-pain relief, I am not so hopeful of it being a long term solution. Get the issue checked with a doctor and see if stuff like stem call therapy/non-opiod meds could help. You'll most probably be able to get insurance for it.

All the best.

And for the love of everything good, stop calling yourself an old fart. Nowadays we have men 20 year olds looking like 70, with the temparament of post-menopausal women.

Hey there my satanic brother in iron- this is an old post and I was already on this small cycle/high cruise when it was posted. It was mild but also felt great and accomplished the goal of getting a little extra recomp as I went from like 17% to 15% fat. Didn’t notice any water at all.

Been back on low TRT for a bit and still seeing slow gains- lifts still slowly gaining reps as I get into the 13% range and only 6-10lbs to go.

I’m closer to 50 than 45 but still waiting for my grownup card to come in the mail!

 

[bananafeet]

To answer your question bro I've noticed that nandralone tends to increase water retention below the skin.

HGH seems to increase it in the ankle joint itself of inside the wrists.

Each part of the body is a compartment and the fluid exchange can be influenced by steroids. This is why stanazolol is used for hereditary angiodema at a low dose of around 2mg.




Source: Goodman & Gilman’s Manual of Pharmacology and Therapeutics

Nandralone is testosterone missing the 19th carbon..this makes it a progestin and gives it some progestogenic effects:
1. Raising prolactin (by lowering dopamine)
2. Increasing beta endorphins (rat study, progestogenic effects)
3. Counteracting some of estrogens effects, and adding to others