Lower vs higher training volume for AAS Users

[hudson98]

We know that AAS allows us to recover faster than naturals so alot of guys now days it seems like are moving towards high volume. But what about intensity? Its easier to go brutally hard on a few sets vs many, then you can recover from hitting failure better than a natural. Recently ive been doing a DC training split (not the two way or 3 way but one he posted a few years ago for advanced trainees) and im finding the rest pause sets give me DOMS I've never had before on AAS, but im still able to recover to hit weak parts a second time with max intensity.

Below is the routine posed by DoggCrapp..... What do you think is best for AAS users 6-8 hard sets a week per part (HIT style), or 15+ not to failure?



Sunday: chest 3-4 exercises (and you work one key exercise on shoulders or triceps on this day if those bodyparts are weak)

Monday: Biceps 2 exercises, Forearms 1 exercise, abs 1 exercise, rear delts 1 exercise, calves 1 exercise (and you work one exercise for back only if you have a serious weakness there)

Tuesday: hams 2 exercises quads 2-3 exercises

Wenesday: off
Thursday: shoulders 3 exercises triceps 3 exercises (and you work one exercise for chest if your chest is a weak bodypart)

Friday: Back width 2 exercises and Back thickness 2 exercises, calves 1 exercise, abs 1 exercise (and you work one exercise for biceps if thats a weak bodypart)

Saturday off.

In the above scenario if someone had weak arms (biceps and triceps sucked) his chest day and back days would look like this

first chest exercise progressive warmups to all out set rest paused
second chest exercise progressive warmups to all out set rest paused
third chest exercise progressive warmups to all out straight set
Maybe forth chest exercise progressive warmups to all out straight set
then because he has weak triceps he would bomb away on a key tricep exercise..lets say assisted dips machine for 25 reps rest paused after warmups

Monday would look like this because his back isnt weak
Biceps 2-3 exercises one or two restpaused in there with the other straight setted Forearms (some sort of reverse curl straight set)
abs one exercise
rear delts one exercise rest paused or straight setted
calves one exercise
no back because his back isnt weak

Tuesday: hams quads (2 exercises for hams one being rest paused), (3 exercises for quads..very hard to rest pause quads)

Wenesday: off


Thursday: shoulders 3 exercises triceps 3 exercises (and you work one exercise for chest if your chest is a weak bodypart)

Friday: Back width 2 exercises and Back thickness 2 exercises, calves 1 exercise, abs 1 exercise (and you work one exercise for biceps if thats a weak bodypart)

Saturday off.

 

[HB_22]

The more the better. And here and there some breaks aka deloads. After a deload I start low and ramp it up over time until I overreach once or twice and start with the deload week again.
I ramp up intensity and volume over time. Seems the best approach to me.

 

[Evom1]

High intensity low volume. Focus on 1-2 sets. DC training is phenomenal but too many people are brainwashed by bro science into thinking they need 4x8-12 on everything

Go look at write ups of how Dante transformed guys like Cedric

 

[Tmisatix]

I like moderate volume , but intensity is always the number one key factor for me. Make better changes when I stop focusing on simply going through motions rather than making less as intense as possible. Dropsets and rest/pause sets are great for this, or just getting to negative failure. You won't be doing 4-5 sets of this , though. If I am feeling a bit tired, or run down, I may focus more on pump/volume. Isolations , I go more volume though.

 

[Pantera]

Can someone please explain to me like I'm 5 years old what the fuck DC training is? I've googled it, and I've read contradicting definitions. Is it a certain training philosophy that people will make their own programming with (which explains why different people will apply it differently)? Or is it an actual program?

It seems interesting.

 

[Rido]

High intensity low volume. Focus on 1-2 sets. DC training is phenomenal but too many people are brainwashed by bro science into thinking they need 4x8-12 on everything

Go look at write ups of how Dante transformed guys like Cedric

I range from 8-16 reps per set and my set is complete if it is within 2 reps of failure.

I already have a reattached torn chest, and a bad lower back which started in my 20s. I want to risk other injuries that will haunt me until I die.

I know some people do fine with the low reps but I just don't have it in me anymore to take that risk. This isn't my life but it's something I enjoy.

I'll do low to moderate intensity at higher volume per week.

PPL 8-18 reps. 30 sets per workout. 5-6 days a week.

 

[AlwaysHungry]

High intensity DC style training Dorian Yates style Blood n guts my best gains are always on these programs. I've torn a lat I've torn a hamstring but I fucking love this training. I have created my own style hybrid DC and blood n guts.
But isn't sustainable all year long so I maybe do 10 weeks High intensity and then swap it for John Meadows programs I've also made tremendous gains on JM programs with high volume. High intensity works high volume works

 

[Evom1]

I range from 8-16 reps per set and my set is complete if it is within 2 reps of failure.

I already have a reattached torn chest, and a bad lower back which started in my 20s. I want to risk other injuries that will haunt me until I die.

I know some people do fine with the low reps but I just don't have it in me anymore to take that risk. This isn't my life but it's something I enjoy.

I'll do low to moderate intensity at higher volume per week.

PPL 8-18 reps. 30 sets per workout. 5-6 days a week.

No it absolutely is not 30 sets per workout not is it 5-6 days per week. Go research a bit from someone like JP, who I promise is more versed than nearly anyone in it

Ppl can be whatever Rep range it's about intensity NOT volume

 

[Rido]

No it absolutely is not 30 sets per workout not is it 5-6 days per week. Go research a bit from someone like JP, who I promise is more versed than nearly anyone in it

Ppl can be whatever Rep range it's about intensity NOT volume

What is not 30 sets per workout?
PPL is just a split. I am sure workout design varies from coach to coach

I meant to say I do moderate intensity. it's definitely not low. I will look into Jordan Peters for my next cycle but I will continue my regimen for my cruise too.

 

[Pineapples4Puss]

I range from 8-16 reps per set and my set is complete if it is within 2 reps of failure.

I already have a reattached torn chest, and a bad lower back which started in my 20s. I want to risk other injuries that will haunt me until I die.

I know some people do fine with the low reps but I just don't have it in me anymore to take that risk. This isn't my life but it's something I enjoy.

I'll do low to moderate intensity at higher volume per week.

PPL 8-18 reps. 30 sets per workout. 5-6 days a week.

This sounds pretty similar to how I train. Some days I bang out a 40 minute lift and can’t move after.

lowest reps I go is usually 6.

 

[Type-IIx]

Can someone please explain to me like I'm 5 years old what the fuck DC training is? I've googled it, and I've read contradicting definitions. Is it a certain training philosophy that people will make their own programming with (which explains why different people will apply it differently)? Or is it an actual program?

It seems interesting.

DC or "DOGGCRAPP" training is an aggregation of training methods, characterized in particular the use of intensifiers, specifically rest-pause, and the use of loaded stretching. The overarching principles are that progressive resistance overload and "beating the logbook" are fundamental to progression.

Dante Trudel (who had posted pseudonymously on the boards as the unfortunately named "DOGGCRAPP," before dropping the veil as he became famous) is its progenitor.

Dante promotes 3 mini-sets, failure at each point, 10-15 breaths between each point (for intensification). This is rest-pause per DC training.

Exercise selection is targeted to weak points and intuited by what works best for advanced trainees in their experience (there is no clear process for evaluating what these best exercises may be besides experience).

The above post is one of Dante's posts on DC training, specifically to illustrate program design for an advanced trainee with weak arms (tris and bis), hitting them with increased frequency.

 

[Type-IIx]

We know that AAS allows us to recover faster than naturals so alot of guys now days it seems like are moving towards high volume. But what about intensity? Its easier to go brutally hard on a few sets vs many, then you can recover from hitting failure better than a natural. Recently ive been doing a DC training split (not the two way or 3 way but one he posted a few years ago for advanced trainees) and im finding the rest pause sets give me DOMS I've never had before on AAS, but im still able to recover to hit weak parts a second time with max intensity.

Below is the routine posed by DoggCrapp..... What do you think is best for AAS users 6-8 hard sets a week per part (HIT style), or 15+ not to failure?



Sunday: chest 3-4 exercises (and you work one key exercise on shoulders or triceps on this day if those bodyparts are weak)

Monday: Biceps 2 exercises, Forearms 1 exercise, abs 1 exercise, rear delts 1 exercise, calves 1 exercise (and you work one exercise for back only if you have a serious weakness there)

Tuesday: hams 2 exercises quads 2-3 exercises

Wenesday: off
Thursday: shoulders 3 exercises triceps 3 exercises (and you work one exercise for chest if your chest is a weak bodypart)

Friday: Back width 2 exercises and Back thickness 2 exercises, calves 1 exercise, abs 1 exercise (and you work one exercise for biceps if thats a weak bodypart)

Saturday off.

In the above scenario if someone had weak arms (biceps and triceps sucked) his chest day and back days would look like this

first chest exercise progressive warmups to all out set rest paused
second chest exercise progressive warmups to all out set rest paused
third chest exercise progressive warmups to all out straight set
Maybe forth chest exercise progressive warmups to all out straight set
then because he has weak triceps he would bomb away on a key tricep exercise..lets say assisted dips machine for 25 reps rest paused after warmups

Monday would look like this because his back isnt weak
Biceps 2-3 exercises one or two restpaused in there with the other straight setted Forearms (some sort of reverse curl straight set)
abs one exercise
rear delts one exercise rest paused or straight setted
calves one exercise
no back because his back isnt weak

Tuesday: hams quads (2 exercises for hams one being rest paused), (3 exercises for quads..very hard to rest pause quads)

Wenesday: off


Thursday: shoulders 3 exercises triceps 3 exercises (and you work one exercise for chest if your chest is a weak bodypart)

Friday: Back width 2 exercises and Back thickness 2 exercises, calves 1 exercise, abs 1 exercise (and you work one exercise for biceps if thats a weak bodypart)

Saturday off.

I am ever careful to conflate DC training with HIT (the latter is more associated with Mentzer and Dorian brought his own experience, his training is an HIT variant).

Dante's (DC training) methods are more closely aligned with, e.g., Borge Fagerli's Myo-Reps and Meadows' use of muscle rounds in certain programs.

Tthough Meadows believed in increasing volume nigh-linearly throughout the cycle and working the muscle at different lengths, i.e. pump work with a short contraction first, then a compound exercise (work through mid-range), then a stretch at extreme muscle length.

In my view, progressive resistance overload is the primary driver of hypertrophy over long time-frames and should be the basis for progress (i.e., beating the logbook). I believe that Dante's methods should be used by anyone who is beyond a novice bodybuilder.

The selection and placement of DC methods in the plan depends on the overarching objectives, training phase (e.g., off-season, contest prep, etc.) and training status (i.e., advanced or greater).

These determine placement and frequency of DC-style blocks, implemented cyclically, in a well-planned training plan.

 

[hudson98]

Can someone please explain to me like I'm 5 years old what the fuck DC training is? I've googled it, and I've read contradicting definitions. Is it a certain training philosophy that people will make their own programming with (which explains why different people will apply it differently)? Or is it an actual program?

It seems interesting.

Celebrity Workouts Archives – Rebel Celebrity

Train like the world's most famous bodybuilders, actors, and celebrities - Arnold Schwarzenegger, Ronnie Coleman, Dorian Yates, Dwayne Johnson, And More!

revolutionaryprogramdesign.com

 

[hudson98]

Celebrity Workouts Archives – Rebel Celebrity

Train like the world's most famous bodybuilders, actors, and celebrities - Arnold Schwarzenegger, Ronnie Coleman, Dorian Yates, Dwayne Johnson, And More!

revolutionaryprogramdesign.com

That's the gist of it. However the original split I posted is for advanced lifters. However it could be an option for someone who wants to use DC training but not only hit the gym 3x a week and do as many total sets for legs as upper body (almost).

I just cant only hit the gym 3x a week and I cant dedicate half of that time on legs, thats basically 1.5 workout a week for upper body. But the 5 day split while it isn't the fastest way to get huge according to DC, it is at least approved by him (vs high volume routines or making our own routine).

 

[1tank1]

Depends on somatotype and goals.
No set rules.

 

[Type-IIx]

I am ever careful to conflate DC training with HIT (the latter is more associated with Mentzer and Dorian brought his own experience, his training is an HIT variant).

Dante's (DC training) methods are more closely aligned with, e.g., Borge Fagerli's Myo-Reps and Meadows' use of muscle rounds in certain programs.

Tthough Meadows believed in increasing volume nigh-linearly throughout the cycle and working the muscle at different lengths, i.e. pump work with a short contraction first, then a compound exercise (work through mid-range), then a stretch at extreme muscle length.

In my view, progressive resistance overload is the primary driver of hypertrophy over long time-frames and should be the basis for progress (i.e., beating the logbook). I believe that Dante's methods should be used by anyone who is beyond a novice bodybuilder.

The selection and placement of DC methods in the plan depends on the overarching objectives, training phase (e.g., off-season, contest prep, etc.) and training status (i.e., advanced or greater).

These determine placement and frequency of DC-style blocks, implemented cyclically, in a well-planned training plan.

It follows from this that the use of DC is never exclusive.

Depending on the tasks within a given training block, one might dedicate more workload to performing pump training (e.g., to the task of glycogen supercompensation; sarcoplasmic hypertrophy) or to performing heavy load training (e.g., to the task of increasing recruitment of higher order type IIX fibers for subsequent sarcoplasmic hypertrophy).

 

[Type-IIx]

er, heavy load training to the task of increasing recruitment... myofibrillar hypertrophy).

 

[hudson98]

It follows from this that the use of DC is never exclusive.

Depending on the tasks within a given training block, one might dedicate more workload to performing pump training (e.g., to the task of glycogen supercompensation; sarcoplasmic hypertrophy) or to performing heavy load training (e.g., to the task of increasing recruitment of higher order type IIX fibers for subsequent sarcoplasmic hypertrophy).

I think ive read that people who tend to not gain muscle easily (lets assume nutrition is on point) may be more slow twitch dominant, where those who gain size easily are more fast twitch dominant .

Do you feel this is the case? if so, would prioritizing volume over intensity be a better strategy for those who have difficulty putting on size (be it all over or a specific weak part)? Again this is we are assuming they eat right and still fall behind their peers given other factors are equal (basically those with shit genetics to pile on LBM).

 

[Joseph Plunkett]

Can I say something and this may be extremely controversial.

The best gains I’ve ever made were in the 1-3 rep range.

Absolutely smashing it and not leaving the gym until I got the a new PB.

If I didn’t get a PB I’d be mad about it all week.

This was very early in my lifting days and it could’ve just been noob gains but I gotta be honest I blew up.

Everyone gave out to me for lifting heavy with low reps but I didn’t care.

I never got any permanent injuries but I was sore as hell for days after every workout.

All I done was bench, deadlift, squat & overhead press.

I got the idea from 5/3/1 BBB I just added a little twist to it.

Anyways that’s my two cents and it’s what has worked best for me.

That’s another thing. Do what works for you….

In other words take others advice with a grain of salt, I’m not saying to ignore them but just make a fair judgment on the advice they give.

We are all different, with different techniques, styles and personalities.

This all factors in to training.

 

[Type-IIx]

I think ive read that people who tend to not gain muscle easily (lets assume nutrition is on point) may be more slow twitch dominant, where those who gain size easily are more fast twitch dominant .

Do you feel this is the case? if so, would prioritizing volume over intensity be a better strategy for those who have difficulty putting on size (be it all over or a specific weak part)? Again this is we are assuming they eat right and still fall behind their peers given other factors are equal (basically those with shit genetics to pile on LBM).

Practically, not really. Type I fibers (slow twitch) just do not have much growth potential at all, and there's no evidence of type I -> II isoform transitions, but rather transitions occur within the broad types (e.g., type IIX -> type IIA).

Heavy load training (e.g., 1 - 3 RM) augments strength mostly by neural mechanisms (e.g., increased voluntary activation) rather than (if at all) by increased fiber size.

Sufficient loads (i.e., > 60% 1RM) to induce hypertrophy rely basically on growth of type II fibers, as these are really all that grow by resistance training.

If one is a predominantly slow twitch phenotype, they're basically fucked after a certain point, regardless of volume.

Now granted, there are myriad mechanisms that contribute to hypertrophy of skeletal muscle (here I've focused perhaps myopically on myofibrilar hypertroophy) aside from resistance training. AAS contribute to hypertrophy of slow twitch fibers and fast twitch fibers in relative equal proportion.

My point is that modulation of training volume and rep ranges (i.e., %1RM) should really be dictated by recovery & training status/age, as well as the task at hand (e.g., myofibrillar versus sarcoplasmic [i.e., noncontractile elements, that type I fibers are more abundant in] hypertrophy).