MALDI-TOF-MS/HPLC-UV-VIS rHGH results

Oh I don't know if a "low responder" is necessarily causative in this instance bc we are not talking about a metabolic process such as the physiologic production and secretion of IGF.

ALL Pharm studies I'm aware of show the peak GH is between 2-3 hours (closer to 3) and the correlation to the dose used although poor, bc it can be much higher, should reveal at least a doubling or tripling of baseline value.

However Bucky's level barely matched his dose in IUs, now that means the most likely cause is either an under dosed product or one of poor quality in my book.

Regs
Jim

More ignornace!!! Serum GH is dependent on individual characteristics on how that person absorbs the injection. Just like whether the injection is done subq or IM, there are other variables that effect the rate of absorption and this the serum score(do the injection subq and you will score completely different). What really matters in is IGF-1 test as that will show the biological activity once it is absorbed; and I have posted his IGF-1 numbers already showing despite a low serum he has a good IGF-1. Why do you keep focusing on his serums and ignoring his IGF-1 levels when you have written MANY MANY times about how meaningless serums are? You are starting to sound like CBS; just looking for excuses and diversions to avoid answering questions. I am still waiting for this mysterious Humatrope lab report to be posted!!
 
Although that package insert doesn't mention it the 192 AA GH sequence also resulted in a higher incidence of MS side effects and in some patients a REDUCTION if IGF levels was noted as anti-GH antibodies were detected.

So what? Well the point is the QUALITY of the GH one is using definitely makes a difference, duh Jim :)

To that end look at the MW of some of the generics tested, they are NOT within the MS margin of error which means the sequence, number or ratio of AA is NOT correct.

THAT ALSO means depending upon what alterations were made and their magnitude IGF levels could very well still increase, followed by a decline thereafter bc of anti-GH
auto-antibody production.

It's also important to know in these subtle alterations could also result GH levels to climb just like Somatrem did.

What does ALL THIS MEAN. You fellas who are running generic GH could be rolling some pretty large dice IMO,
 
What does ALL THIS MEAN. You fellas who are running generic GH could be rolling some pretty large dice IMO,
Jim,

I have a very serious up respiratory track infection. I feel much slower than usual. Why, in your best patient laymen terms, do you feel people are rolling the dice with Generics hgh? What are the risks and reasons. Please.

This is the point of this site in my mind. Creating the healthiest, optimal use of aas and other related drugs.
Thanks
 
192aa HGH(Somatrem/Protropin) uses inclusion body technology which is outdated and the purification process is labor intensive making it more expensive than the current process that involves protein secretion technology. Therefore nobody is using 192aa GH. To think otherwise is ludicrous and either someone is completely ignorant to real world GH production or they are grasping at straws.
 
Why, in your best patient laymen terms, do you feel people are rolling the dice with Generics hgh? What are the risks and reasons. Please.

The risk with using untested biologics is an immunogenic reaction. It's already happened with Eprex, a generic eythropoietin, when patients developed pure red cell aplasia and anti-erythropoietin antibodies. The risk of developing immunogenicity, no matter how slight, is the reason I won't use generic GH products.

Nephrol Dial Transplant. 2003 Nov;18 Suppl 8:viii37-41.
Pure red cell aplasia and anti-erythropoietin antibodies in patients treated with epoetin.

Casadevall N1.

Abstract
Recombinant human erythropoietin (epoetin) was first used for the treatment of renal anaemia in 1986. During the first 10 years of its use, epoetin-induced antibodies were a rare complication and only three cases of patients with epoetin-induced antibodies associated with pure red cell aplasia (PRCA) were published. Since 1998, however, there has been a significant increase in the number of patients developing severe anaemia during the course of epoetin treatment due to neutralizing antibodies. Patients with PRCA present with an absolute resistance to epoetin therapy and then rapidly develop severe anaemia with a very low reticulocyte count (<10 000/mm(3)). Consequently, patients become dependent on blood transfusions to maintain an acceptable level of haemoglobin. By December 2002, approximately 142 patients worldwide had been diagnosed with antibody-positive PRCA after receiving epoetin. The vast majority of these patients had been treated with the Eprex/Erypo brand of epoetin alfa, but there were also some cases in which patients had been receiving epoetin beta (NeoRecormon). To date, there have been no cases of antibody-mediated PRCA reported with the sole use of darbepoetin alfa (Aranesp). All patients with epoetin-induced anti-erythropoietin antibodies had received the drug subcutaneously (s.c.), and almost all had chronic kidney disease-related anaemia. To our knowledge, no patient treated exclusively by intravenous (i.v.) administration has developed anti-erythropoietin antibodies. The increase in reported cases coincides with the removal of human serum albumin from the ex-US formulation of epoetin alfa, in order to comply with new regulations from the European regulatory authorities. It has been proposed that the new formulation is less stable, allowing aggregates of erythropoietin molecules to form, which increases the probability of antibody formation. Treatment with epoetin must be discontinued if PRCA is suspected. Patients do not respond to an increase in dose. Furthermore, patients must not be switched to another form of erythropoietic therapy as the antibodies cross-react with all erythropoietic therapies available. In around 70% of cases, immunosuppressive regimens are effective in eliminating the antibodies; cessation of epoetin therapy without concomitant immunosuppression is rarely effective. Kidney transplantation seems to provide an immediate and effective cure.



Arch Immunol Ther Exp (Warsz). 2012 Oct;60(5):331-44.
Immunogenicity to biologics: mechanisms, prediction and reduction.
Sethu S1, Govindappa K, Alhaidari M, Pirmohamed M, Park K, Sathish J.

Abstract
Currently, there is a significant rise in the development and clinical use of a unique class of pharmaceuticals termed as Biopharmaceuticals or Biologics, in the management of a range of disease conditions with, remarkable therapeutic benefits. However, there is an equally growing concern regarding development of adverse effects like immunogenicity in the form of anti-drug antibodies (ADA) production and hypersensitivity. Immunogenicity to biologics represents a significant hurdle in the continuing therapy of patients in a number of disease settings. Efforts focussed on the identification of factors that contribute towards the onset of immunogenic response to biologics have led to reductions in the incidence of immunogenicity. An in-depth understanding of the cellular and molecular mechanism underpinning immunogenic responses will likely improve the safety profile of biologics. This review addresses the mechanistic basis of ADA generation to biologics, with emphasis on the role of antigen processing and presentation in this process. The article also addresses the potential contribution of complement system in augmenting or modulating this response. Identifying specific factors that influences processing and presentation of biologic-derived antigens in different genotype and disease background may offer additional options for intervention in the immunogenic process and consequently, the management of immunogenicity to biologics.


Ther Clin Risk Manag. 2011;7:489-93. doi: 10.2147/TCRM.S27495. Epub 2011 Dec 7.
Emerging patient safety issues under health care reform: follow-on biologics and immunogenicity.
Liang BA1, Mackey T.

Abstract
US health care reform includes an abbreviated pathway for follow-on biologics, also known as biosimilars, in an effort to speed up access to these complex therapeutics. However, a key patient safety challenge emerges from such an abbreviated pathway: immunogenicity reactions. Yet immunogenicity is notoriously difficult to predict, and even cooperative approaches in licensing between companies have resulted in patient safety concerns, injury, and death. Because approval pathways for follow-on forms do not involve cooperative disclosure of methods and manufacturing processes by innovator companies and follow-on manufacturers, the potential for expanded immunogenicity must be taken into account from a risk management and patient safety perspective. The US Institute of Safe Medication Practices (ISMP) has principles of medication safety that have been applied in the past to high-risk drugs. We propose adapting ISMP principles to follow-on biologic forms and creating systems approaches to warn, rapidly identify, and alert providers regarding this emerging patient safety risk. This type of system can be built upon and provide lessons learned as these new drug forms are developed and marketed more broadly.
 
The risk with using untested biologics is an immunogenic reaction. It's already happened with Eprex, a generic eythropoietin, when patients developed pure red cell aplasia and anti-erythropoietin antibodies. The risk of developing immunogenicity, no matter how slight, is the reason I won't use generic GH products.

Nephrol Dial Transplant. 2003 Nov;18 Suppl 8:viii37-41.
Pure red cell aplasia and anti-erythropoietin antibodies in patients treated with epoetin.

Casadevall N1.

Abstract
Recombinant human erythropoietin (epoetin) was first used for the treatment of renal anaemia in 1986. During the first 10 years of its use, epoetin-induced antibodies were a rare complication and only three cases of patients with epoetin-induced antibodies associated with pure red cell aplasia (PRCA) were published. Since 1998, however, there has been a significant increase in the number of patients developing severe anaemia during the course of epoetin treatment due to neutralizing antibodies. Patients with PRCA present with an absolute resistance to epoetin therapy and then rapidly develop severe anaemia with a very low reticulocyte count (<10 000/mm(3)). Consequently, patients become dependent on blood transfusions to maintain an acceptable level of haemoglobin. By December 2002, approximately 142 patients worldwide had been diagnosed with antibody-positive PRCA after receiving epoetin. The vast majority of these patients had been treated with the Eprex/Erypo brand of epoetin alfa, but there were also some cases in which patients had been receiving epoetin beta (NeoRecormon). To date, there have been no cases of antibody-mediated PRCA reported with the sole use of darbepoetin alfa (Aranesp). All patients with epoetin-induced anti-erythropoietin antibodies had received the drug subcutaneously (s.c.), and almost all had chronic kidney disease-related anaemia. To our knowledge, no patient treated exclusively by intravenous (i.v.) administration has developed anti-erythropoietin antibodies. The increase in reported cases coincides with the removal of human serum albumin from the ex-US formulation of epoetin alfa, in order to comply with new regulations from the European regulatory authorities. It has been proposed that the new formulation is less stable, allowing aggregates of erythropoietin molecules to form, which increases the probability of antibody formation. Treatment with epoetin must be discontinued if PRCA is suspected. Patients do not respond to an increase in dose. Furthermore, patients must not be switched to another form of erythropoietic therapy as the antibodies cross-react with all erythropoietic therapies available. In around 70% of cases, immunosuppressive regimens are effective in eliminating the antibodies; cessation of epoetin therapy without concomitant immunosuppression is rarely effective. Kidney transplantation seems to provide an immediate and effective cure.



Arch Immunol Ther Exp (Warsz). 2012 Oct;60(5):331-44.
Immunogenicity to biologics: mechanisms, prediction and reduction.
Sethu S1, Govindappa K, Alhaidari M, Pirmohamed M, Park K, Sathish J.

Abstract
Currently, there is a significant rise in the development and clinical use of a unique class of pharmaceuticals termed as Biopharmaceuticals or Biologics, in the management of a range of disease conditions with, remarkable therapeutic benefits. However, there is an equally growing concern regarding development of adverse effects like immunogenicity in the form of anti-drug antibodies (ADA) production and hypersensitivity. Immunogenicity to biologics represents a significant hurdle in the continuing therapy of patients in a number of disease settings. Efforts focussed on the identification of factors that contribute towards the onset of immunogenic response to biologics have led to reductions in the incidence of immunogenicity. An in-depth understanding of the cellular and molecular mechanism underpinning immunogenic responses will likely improve the safety profile of biologics. This review addresses the mechanistic basis of ADA generation to biologics, with emphasis on the role of antigen processing and presentation in this process. The article also addresses the potential contribution of complement system in augmenting or modulating this response. Identifying specific factors that influences processing and presentation of biologic-derived antigens in different genotype and disease background may offer additional options for intervention in the immunogenic process and consequently, the management of immunogenicity to biologics.


Ther Clin Risk Manag. 2011;7:489-93. doi: 10.2147/TCRM.S27495. Epub 2011 Dec 7.
Emerging patient safety issues under health care reform: follow-on biologics and immunogenicity.
Liang BA1, Mackey T.

Abstract
US health care reform includes an abbreviated pathway for follow-on biologics, also known as biosimilars, in an effort to speed up access to these complex therapeutics. However, a key patient safety challenge emerges from such an abbreviated pathway: immunogenicity reactions. Yet immunogenicity is notoriously difficult to predict, and even cooperative approaches in licensing between companies have resulted in patient safety concerns, injury, and death. Because approval pathways for follow-on forms do not involve cooperative disclosure of methods and manufacturing processes by innovator companies and follow-on manufacturers, the potential for expanded immunogenicity must be taken into account from a risk management and patient safety perspective. The US Institute of Safe Medication Practices (ISMP) has principles of medication safety that have been applied in the past to high-risk drugs. We propose adapting ISMP principles to follow-on biologic forms and creating systems approaches to warn, rapidly identify, and alert providers regarding this emerging patient safety risk. This type of system can be built upon and provide lessons learned as these new drug forms are developed and marketed more broadly.

Ease up on the weed, it will help with the paranoia. Also you may want to avoid pharm GH too, as it is well documented that there is a small percentage of the population that develops antibodies to it as well.
 
It seems like this circle jerk is getting no where. I was hoping some Top Dog Experts would chime in, but it seems they do not want to enter this affair.
 
It seems like this circle jerk is getting no where. I was hoping some Top Dog Experts would chime in, but it seems they do not want to enter this affair.

Perhaps you could invite 6-Fingers(I know the name is kinda wierd) from PM over here to answer some questions. Anyone that has seen his posts will agree that guy seems extremely knowledgable and from an inside position. In other words his information is first hand and not hearsay. I would invite him myself, but I would probably be accused of being a shill and trying to drum up business for him.
 
Ease up on the weed, it will help with the paranoia. Also you may want to avoid pharm GH too, as it is well documented that there is a small percentage of the population that develops antibodies to it as well.

Another useless post from Muscle Head. If you have evidence showing the risk of immunogenicity with follow-on biologics isn't a serious health concern, post it. Otherwise, you're wasting bandwidth by expounding upon that which you know little.
 
Yaayyy CBS You just proved what we have been saying all along. Gh serum levels are an individual case by case basis and can't be used to show concentration of the actual GH. Thank you for proving my point.

He's obviously a low responder and I don't believe peak time is at 2:30 hour mark(maybe for him). It's always been 3 hours for the majority.

IGF-1 levels are what we need.

mands

I seen A study that included a graph that said peak HGH levels IM were@ 3 and sq was a little longer 3.5. So I always had that thought in mind and tested at that time.
I had a string of what i considered low scores and 1st thought was short HGH.
I decided to test the 3 hour mark to do so i was going to do my norm. protocol and have 3 draws the same day 2:30 , 3:00, and 3:30. the lab was late I came in @ 2:45, 3:15, and 3:45 or close to. My best score was 2:45 and lower from there. So next time out i narrowed the range a s i didnt think peak could be to much lower than 2:45.
I went off 2:15, 2:30, and 2:45 best was 2:30 I repeated this a few times and this is how I come to that peak time. a few times it came in a little earlier but the most part 2:30 or a little b/4.
I dont think I am in the minority and a few points here and there probably dont make much difference to most but I needed it answered.

Peace
 
Or maybe he's looking for someone with more knowledge than he on the subject to expound on what appears to be a stalemate of sorts.
exactly. I said experts.


And laying out the facts scientifically, not helter skelter.
 
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Condescension, you say? Only when it's justified. What you refer to as "copy/paste" is called supporting your assertions/arguments with EVIDENCE. Perhaps if you had read the evidence, you wouldn't be asking for someone to spoon feed you.



Res ipsa loquitur.
Spoon fed. Exactly! By Internet warriors that do not have the proper education to lay out facts in any kind of sensible way. Haphazard assertions mean nothing. Facts mean everything if presented properly. Both sides of this discussion has demonstrated nothing but a convoluted shell game.

Once again self appointed Einstein, what is your fucking educational background outside of high school! If you do not have the proper qualifications, then you're just another talking head supporting his ego and doing NOTHING to further the discussion.
 
Spoon fed. Exactly! By Internet warriors that do not have the proper education to lay out facts in any kind of sensible way. Haphazard assertions mean nothing. Facts mean everything if presented properly. Both sides of this discussion has demonstrated nothing but a convoluted shell game.

Once again self appointed Einstein, what is your fucking educational background outside of high school! If you do not have the proper qualifications, then you're just another talking head supporting his ego and doing NOTHING to further the discussion.

I don't believe that anything I have said is convoluted or anything other than what I truly believe and have learned. However, I hardly consider myself an expert and know that there are others that are much more knowledgeable than me. So, unlike CBS and Jim, I welcome any experts that want to help clarify everything and get everyone on the same page.
 
Spoon fed. Exactly! By Internet warriors that do not have the proper education to lay out facts in any kind of sensible way. Haphazard assertions mean nothing. Facts mean everything if presented properly. Both sides of this discussion has demonstrated nothing but a convoluted shell game.

Once again self appointed Einstein, what is your fucking educational background outside of high school! If you do not have the proper qualifications, then you're just another talking head supporting his ego and doing NOTHING to further the discussion.

Listen numbnuts, you started this by asking "in your best patient laymen terms, do you feel people are rolling the dice with Generics hgh? What are the risks and reasons. Please."

I answered your fucking question by telling you the risks - immunogenicity. And I provided citations (which obviously went over your head) to back it up.

You responded with some inane comment about circle jerks, and then begged for an "expert" to tell you what to think.

Was my reply condescending? Of course it was. That's what your idiotic reply deserved.

As far as my educational background goes, it's none of your fucking business. I've never used or relied on my education to support an argument, and I've never let anyone else use theirs. That's an appeal to authority and I'm not interested in logical fallacies.

You talk about experts and facts. You don't want facts, you want bro science. Begging for an "expert" to tell you what to think proved that. You wouldn't know an expert if you were staring one in the face - unless someone told you who the expert was, of course. Stick to your paranoid Police State thread with the rest of the conspiracy nuts and screwballs.

Why, in your best patient laymen terms, do you feel people are rolling the dice with Generics hgh? What are the risks and reasons. Please.

This is the point of this site in my mind. Creating the healthiest, optimal use of aas and other related drugs.
Thanks

The risk with using untested biologics is an immunogenic reaction. It's already happened with Eprex, a generic eythropoietin, when patients developed pure red cell aplasia and anti-erythropoietin antibodies.

It seems like this circle jerk is getting no where. I was hoping some Top Dog Experts would chime in, but it seems they do not want to enter this affair.

You're looking for someone to tell you what to think. There's enough information in this thread to form your own conclusions.

Do not be condescending to me you copy/paste artist. What the hell is your degree in again CBS?
 
Listen numbnuts, you started this by asking "in your best patient laymen terms, do you feel people are rolling the dice with Generics hgh? What are the risks and reasons. Please."

I answered your fucking question by telling you the risks - immunogenicity. And I provided citations (which obviously went over your head) to back it up.

You responded with some inane comment about circle jerks, and then begged for an "expert" to tell you what to think.

Was my reply condescending? Of course it was. That's what your idiotic reply deserved.

As far as my educational background goes, it's none of your fucking business. I've never used or relied on my education to support an argument, and I've never let anyone else use theirs. That's an appeal to authority and I'm not interested in logical fallacies.

You talk about experts and facts. You don't want facts, you want bro science. Begging for an "expert" to tell you what to think proved that. You wouldn't know an expert if you were staring one in the face - unless someone told you who the expert was, of course. Stick to your paranoid Police State thread with the rest of the conspiracy nuts and screwballs.

So CBS, do you consider yourself an expert on GH? I sure hope not, you have zero real world experience and you pick and choose from google which studies or examples to cut and paste without fully understanding them or looking at the whole picture(i.e. buck's data). People should be commended for being smart enough to continue searching to better understand things. Isn't that why we are here in the first place, to learn more and more about what we are putting in our body. I encourage people to seek out more information from those more qualified to provide an answer. Why would you discourage that? What are you afraid they will find out?
 
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