More food on cycle = more growth?

I wanted to ask people with more experience is it better to “overeat” and go with a large surplus of say 1000cal or go slower at a basic 500cal surplus while on a large cycle or say 2.5g +HGH and slin? My results often seem to be a lot more drastic when I push the food and get my body fat higher compared to when I “lean bulk” and only add a few bf % by the end of my bulk. Last time I got fat (25%) at the end of my cycle, when I cut to 12% my arms were almost an entire inch bigger at the end of the 24 week cycle compared to only a .3 inch increase when I was in a smaller surplus last cycle. I see older pictures of Nick Walker when he was still accumulating his size and he got pretty chubby peak bulk. Just curious what more experienced users think of this. Thanks guys!
 
I've got no experience outside of giving myself NAFLD while trying to "fatmaxx" when I had hypogonadism.

I'm on TRT and do the odd cycle now. Yes the extra food works because it uses other pathways to illicit growth (insulin, protien signalling, igf1). However it seems to work until it doesn't and then it's all side effects....

I lost 30+kg recently and I can say yes fatmaxxing did actually help me put on size. But I'd have been better to go on TRT/steroids instead. Not worth it for the metabolic side effects.

So I'd exercise caution abusing a single pathway.

Interested to see what other people have to say.
 
I've got no experience outside of giving myself NAFLD while trying to "fatmaxx" when I had hypogonadism.

I'm on TRT and do the odd cycle now. Yes the extra food works because it uses other pathways to illicit growth (insulin, protien signalling, igf1). However it seems to work until it doesn't and then it's all side effects....

I lost 30+kg recently and I can say yes fatmaxxing did actually help me put on size. But I'd have been better to go on TRT/steroids instead. Not worth it for the metabolic side effects.

So I'd exercise caution abusing a single pathway.

Interested to see what other people have to say.
I feel you there I trained 4 years naturally with low test and made shit progress. Always wondered why I made such less progress than my friends when I put everything into it. Hopped on and my progress has skyrocketed beyond what I thought possible. I’ll be running HGH and slin. I was actually having a conversation with a few bodybuilders on here who actually recommended slin for me even at my size (170lbs 11% at 5’8 ran 2 cycles). They were trying to explain to me that I should be utilizing all pathways of growth instead of only upping AAS if I truly want to push to open size. I was always under the impression that slin was for already massive guys
 
Yes sure it will definitely do that. I'm not keen to go beyond what I'm doing now:

125mg test E
350mg Decca
400mg mast E
2 iu HGH

I think adding insulin would make it too complicated for me. But that's up to you. I think insulin makes sense if you need help when eating massive amounts of food (carbs).
 
Yes and yes, this new school thought of dieting like you’re still cutting but having a goal of growing has been taken too far lately. I could have a guy eat a sufficient and minimum amount of protein for muscular growth (say 150-200 grams/day) and load him up on pbj sandwiches all day, and another guy eating 300+ grams/day protein and “just eat more of the clean foods” and I’ll tell you right now that the dude scarfing down pbj sandwiches will be much larger and stronger! I don’t know why ppl refuse to believe that calories are king when it comes to growth
 
Yes and yes, this new school thought of dieting like you’re still cutting but having a goal of growing has been taken too far lately. I could have a guy eat a sufficient and minimum amount of protein for muscular growth (say 150-200 grams/day) and load him up on pbj sandwiches all day, and another guy eating 300+ grams/day protein and “just eat more of the clean foods” and I’ll tell you right now that the dude scarfing down pbj sandwiches will be much larger and stronger! I don’t know why ppl refuse to believe that calories are king when it comes to growth
I fell into this trap my second cycle. I was running 750 test 600 deca. I got really strong. RDL went from 315 for 6 to 425 2x4. Barbell row went from repping 225 for 10 to 275 for 8. Anyways, I was not happy one bit with the size I gained because I followed everybody’s advice and listened to everybody telling me “the body can only grow at a certain rate so why eat more than 500 surplus?” Complete and total bullshit. My first cycle I went from 175lbs 18% to 215lbs 27%. Cut down and looked like a new human being. Peak bulk I was over an inch on my legs. .7 inch gain on my arms. My second cycle ended from 175lbs 14% to 205 20%. 16 weeks. After the water and glycogen dropped I was extremely disappointed with how little mass I gained. I am currently now 169lbs at 10% 5’8. I stalled at 200lbs for well over 6 weeks despite adding 500cal each week. When I finally did gain weight I believe it was mostly fat. I naturally have a very slow metabolism and it baffles me how much food I had to push to get past 200lbs (5200cal). It also doesn’t help I got very sick on week 16 and had to go to the ER for unrelated issues and basically lost 10lbs in a few days. Peak bulk vs now I look insanely smaller now so quite possibly me getting sick and not being able to maintain 205lbs for long caused me to lose some tissue. Who knows. Anyways, next cycle I’m doing 1.25g test, 900eq, 600 tren 8-10iu HGH +lantus and novolin r. I’ll be starting my bulk at 4000cal I’m not fucking around with anything under 4k cal even at 169lbs. Last cycle showed me how much I have to eat
 
It's funny the skinny kids at the gym who ask me how to get big. I tell them "you need to eat more, a LOT more".

They assure me they're eating as much as they can, sometimes 4000+ calories.

Me personally, I top out at 235lbs without SERIOUS effort. I've never hit 240. I notice my highest quality growth happens earlier in the cycle. I admit I'm quite inexperienced and still figuring out what works for me. My strength results are best when I stick to the plan. Eat a ton of food and lift heavy, not worrying about getting fat. I never get super fat no matter what.
 
It's funny the skinny kids at the gym who ask me how to get big. I tell them "you need to eat more, a LOT more".

They assure me they're eating as much as they can, sometimes 4000+ calories.

Me personally, I top out at 235lbs without SERIOUS effort. I've never hit 240. I notice my highest quality growth happens earlier in the cycle. I admit I'm quite inexperienced and still figuring out what works for me. My strength results are best when I stick to the plan. Eat a ton of food and lift heavy, not worrying about getting fat. I never get super fat no matter what.
I’ll be utilizing HGH for the first time so hoping that will mitigate some of the fat gain but I agree. First cycle I ate 6 large meals of ground beef and rice everyday. Huge surplus. Gained more muscle in 24 weeks than I had ever thought humanly possible. Completely transformed my physique. I’ll be doing that again for this large cycle I have coming up. 4k seems to be a starting point for me at 5’8 169lbs lol. No clue why I have to consume so much compared to others on a bulk. There’s no way in hell im running 2.7g gear + HGH and slin for a third cycle and only eating a 500 surplus. I want to end up at 230lbs minimum by the end of the 24 week cycle and preferably keep bodyfat to 20% max
 
Never any need for a 1000cal surplus. Ever.

If you’re adding more fat than muscle your offseason is fucked. Why lay in fat just to strip 2x as much away as you gained?

Eat X cals. Track scale and mirror. When growth stalls, add 250-500 cals depending on condition and size. Rinse and repeat.
 
I’ll be utilizing HGH for the first time so hoping that will mitigate some of the fat gain but I agree. First cycle I ate 6 large meals of ground beef and rice everyday. Huge surplus. Gained more muscle in 24 weeks than I had ever thought humanly possible. Completely transformed my physique. I’ll be doing that again for this large cycle I have coming up. 4k seems to be a starting point for me at 5’8 169lbs lol. No clue why I have to consume so much compared to others on a bulk. There’s no way in hell im running 2.7g gear + HGH and slin for a third cycle and only eating a 500 surplus. I want to end up at 230lbs minimum by the end of the 24 week cycle and preferably keep bodyfat to 20% max
This ain’t it, chief
 
I got fat (25%)

That's too fat. Why do that to yourself?

I followed everybody’s advice and listened to everybody telling me “the body can only grow at a certain rate so why eat more than 500 surplus?” Complete and total bullshit. My first cycle I went from 175lbs 18% to 215lbs 27%. Cut down and looked like a new human being. Peak bulk I was over an inch on my legs. .7 inch gain on my arms. My second cycle ended from 175lbs 14% to 205 20%. 16 weeks. After the water and glycogen dropped I was extremely disappointed with how little mass I gained.

Subsequent cycles are never like the first one. Welcome to bodybuilding. That first cycle will always be your best.

Sorry to tell you, but you will know soon enough, after more cycles. Never again will you have that "new human being." Everything after is adding a little more mass and a little more each time.

I am currently now 169lbs at 10% 5’8.
A decent body fat percentage to start if you are accurate in your assessment. Maybe try not to go over 14 -15% - that means you are taking in plenty of excess calories, since you added nine pounds of pure fat in addition to water and muscle.

I stalled at 200lbs for well over 6 weeks despite adding 500cal each week.

Here is a little secret. If your weight stalls for two weeks, then you are at maintenance calories for that weight. It does not matter that you added 500 calories. If you add 500 calories when you weight 200 pounds, and two weeks later you weight 200 pounds, then your additional 500 calories brought you up to maintenance level.

When I finally did gain weight I believe it was mostly fat.

Yeah. You'll gain something over maintenance. Muscle, fat, and it might be fat, but the scale has to move up if you are over maintenance. If you do not gain weight you are at maintenance.

I naturally have a very slow metabolism and it baffles me how much food I had to push to get past 200lbs (5200cal).

Welcome to bodybuilding. Remember what I said about never again having your first cycle? That cycle is over and done. It was great, wasn't it? Now get it out of your head and focus on the future. You add small amounts. And they get smaller as you get bigger each subsequent cycle. And, sorry to inform you, you have to eat more as you get bigger. That is just a fact of life. I was pretty miserable on what I had to eat to get over 250 pounds. I did not like it one bit, but I ate what was necessary to keep the scale moving, just as when cutting I had to make the proper downward adjustment to keep cutting.

It also doesn’t help I got very sick on week 16 and had to go to the ER for unrelated issues and basically lost 10lbs in a few days.

Don't compare a cycle that got screwed up by an illness. Things happen. That probably won't happen next time.

Anyways, next cycle I’m doing 1.25g test, 900eq, 600 tren 8-10iu HGH +lantus and novolin r. I’ll be starting my bulk at 4000cal I’m not fucking around with anything under 4k cal even at 169lbs. Last cycle showed me how much I have to eat

Wow. All that gear at 169 pounds? 600mg of tren?

I’ll be utilizing HGH for the first time so hoping that will mitigate some of the fat gain but I agree. First cycle I ate 6 large meals of ground beef and rice everyday. Huge surplus. Gained more muscle in 24 weeks than I had ever thought humanly possible. Completely transformed my physique. I’ll be doing that again for this large cycle I have coming up. 4k seems to be a starting point for me at 5’8 169lbs lol. No clue why I have to consume so much compared to others on a bulk. There’s no way in hell im running 2.7g gear + HGH and slin for a third cycle and only eating a 500 surplus. I want to end up at 230lbs minimum by the end of the 24 week cycle and preferably keep bodyfat to 20% max

169 pounds up to 230 pounds???

Why?

I think maybe now I know the issue. You have unrealistic expectations of what one solitary cycle should add to your frame. 61 pounds should be years of training, not one go for broke cycle.

You are really adding a bunch of fat and water. If you add 7-10 pounds of actual lean tissue, that is, stage weight, single digit body fat, from one cycle to another, that is about what to expect now on your third or fourth (sorry, I lost track) cycle. Third and fourth cycles do not add 61 pounds - and if you do it is a bunch of swelling from water and fat and what a horrible way to go through life. Then you have to cut, cut, cut, wow, and cut some more to see that seven pounds of muscle you gained, hey, I just cut 54 pounds. No, thanks.

Please consider readjusting your goal for one cycle, and maybe getting help with your diet (sincere advice here - I am not a coach, so I have nothing to gain from telling you to consider getting one), six meals of ground beef is not a healthy way to go about this.

I wish you luck, but please maybe look at some of the logs on here in the bodybuilding section, especially @Mac11wildcat 's log, where he shares all sorts of detail about his diet and about his gear use - and it is nothing like what you are doing. There is a lot to be learned there reading the 100 pages or so. There are some other bodybuilders here, too, who are successful amateurs running logs. It might be worth seeing how they eat and their gear use. None of them are trying to gain 61 pounds in one cycle.

Please take some time to read and learn from their examples. You may find it worth your while in the end.
 
That's too fat. Why do that to yourself?



Subsequent cycles are never like the first one. Welcome to bodybuilding. That first cycle will always be your best.

Sorry to tell you, but you will know soon enough, after more cycles. Never again will you have that "new human being." Everything after is adding a little more mass and a little more each time.


A decent body fat percentage to start if you are accurate in your assessment. Maybe try not to go over 14 -15% - that means you are taking in plenty of excess calories, since you added nine pounds of pure fat in addition to water and muscle.



Here is a little secret. If your weight stalls for two weeks, then you are at maintenance calories for that weight. It does not matter that you added 500 calories. If you add 500 calories when you weight 200 pounds, and two weeks later you weight 200 pounds, then your additional 500 calories brought you up to maintenance level.



Yeah. You'll gain something over maintenance. Muscle, fat, and it might be fat, but the scale has to move up if you are over maintenance. If you do not gain weight you are at maintenance.



Welcome to bodybuilding. Remember what I said about never again having your first cycle? That cycle is over and done. It was great, wasn't it? Now get it out of your head and focus on the future. You add small amounts. And they get smaller as you get bigger each subsequent cycle. And, sorry to inform you, you have to eat more as you get bigger. That is just a fact of life. I was pretty miserable on what I had to eat to get over 250 pounds. I did not like it one bit, but I ate what was necessary to keep the scale moving, just as when cutting I had to make the proper downward adjustment to keep cutting.



Don't compare a cycle that got screwed up by an illness. Things happen. That probably won't happen next time.



Wow. All that gear at 169 pounds? 600mg of tren?



169 pounds up to 230 pounds???

Why?

I think maybe now I know the issue. You have unrealistic expectations of what one solitary cycle should add to your frame. 61 pounds should be years of training, not one go for broke cycle.

You are really adding a bunch of fat and water. If you add 7-10 pounds of actual lean tissue, that is, stage weight, single digit body fat, from one cycle to another, that is about what to expect now on your third or fourth (sorry, I lost track) cycle. Third and fourth cycles do not add 61 pounds - and if you do it is a bunch of swelling from water and fat and what a horrible way to go through life. Then you have to cut, cut, cut, wow, and cut some more to see that seven pounds of muscle you gained, hey, I just cut 54 pounds. No, thanks.

Please consider readjusting your goal for one cycle, and maybe getting help with your diet (sincere advice here - I am not a coach, so I have nothing to gain from telling you to consider getting one), six meals of ground beef is not a healthy way to go about this.

I wish you luck, but please maybe look at some of the logs on here in the bodybuilding section, especially @Mac11wildcat 's log, where he shares all sorts of detail about his diet and about his gear use - and it is nothing like what you are doing. There is a lot to be learned there reading the 100 pages or so. There are some other bodybuilders here, too, who are successful amateurs running logs. It might be worth seeing how they eat and their gear use. None of them are trying to gain 61 pounds in one cycle.

Please take some time to read and learn from their examples. You may find it worth your while in the end.
That's too fat. Why do that to yourself?



Subsequent cycles are never like the first one. Welcome to bodybuilding. That first cycle will always be your best.

Sorry to tell you, but you will know soon enough, after more cycles. Never again will you have that "new human being." Everything after is adding a little more mass and a little more each time.


A decent body fat percentage to start if you are accurate in your assessment. Maybe try not to go over 14 -15% - that means you are taking in plenty of excess calories, since you added nine pounds of pure fat in addition to water and muscle.



Here is a little secret. If your weight stalls for two weeks, then you are at maintenance calories for that weight. It does not matter that you added 500 calories. If you add 500 calories when you weight 200 pounds, and two weeks later you weight 200 pounds, then your additional 500 calories brought you up to maintenance level.



Yeah. You'll gain something over maintenance. Muscle, fat, and it might be fat, but the scale has to move up if you are over maintenance. If you do not gain weight you are at maintenance.



Welcome to bodybuilding. Remember what I said about never again having your first cycle? That cycle is over and done. It was great, wasn't it? Now get it out of your head and focus on the future. You add small amounts. And they get smaller as you get bigger each subsequent cycle. And, sorry to inform you, you have to eat more as you get bigger. That is just a fact of life. I was pretty miserable on what I had to eat to get over 250 pounds. I did not like it one bit, but I ate what was necessary to keep the scale moving, just as when cutting I had to make the proper downward adjustment to keep cutting.



Don't compare a cycle that got screwed up by an illness. Things happen. That probably won't happen next time.



Wow. All that gear at 169 pounds? 600mg of tren?



169 pounds up to 230 pounds???

Why?

I think maybe now I know the issue. You have unrealistic expectations of what one solitary cycle should add to your frame. 61 pounds should be years of training, not one go for broke cycle.

You are really adding a bunch of fat and water. If you add 7-10 pounds of actual lean tissue, that is, stage weight, single digit body fat, from one cycle to another, that is about what to expect now on your third or fourth (sorry, I lost track) cycle. Third and fourth cycles do not add 61 pounds - and if you do it is a bunch of swelling from water and fat and what a horrible way to go through life. Then you have to cut, cut, cut, wow, and cut some more to see that seven pounds of muscle you gained, hey, I just cut 54 pounds. No, thanks.

Please consider readjusting your goal for one cycle, and maybe getting help with your diet (sincere advice here - I am not a coach, so I have nothing to gain from telling you to consider getting one), six meals of ground beef is not a healthy way to go about this.

I wish you luck, but please maybe look at some of the logs on here in the bodybuilding section, especially @Mac11wildcat 's log, where he shares all sorts of detail about his diet and about his gear use - and it is nothing like what you are doing. There is a lot to be learned there reading the 100 pages or so. There are some other bodybuilders here, too, who are successful amateurs running logs. It might be worth seeing how they eat and their gear use. None of them are trying to gain 61 pounds in one cycle.

Please take some time to read and learn from their examples. You may find it worth your while in the end.
I just wanted to say that in April 2021 I was 167 lbs. A couple weeks ago I was 237. I've literally gained 70 lbs. I'm an old man, almost 48. I'd like to be a lean 225 perhaps, not sure. Dexa scans show solid improvement over time.
 
I just wanted to say that in April 2021 I was 167 lbs. A couple weeks ago I was 237. I've literally gained 70 lbs. I'm an old man, almost 48. I'd like to be a lean 225 perhaps, not sure. Dexa scans show solid improvement over time.
Then I caution you even more at your age not to pack on that sort of water and fat and take such extreme steroid dosages.

I have been your age. You will not be happy you did it that way when you are my age.

It's your life, do what you want, but I hope you listen some, for your own sake.
 

All sorts of good logs here, and you can see the better bodybuilders and their results, and see what they do for food and gear and make your own choices, but perhaps they will be better informed choices.
 
I just wanted to say that in April 2021 I was 167 lbs. A couple weeks ago I was 237. I've literally gained 70 lbs. I'm an old man, almost 48. I'd like to be a lean 225 perhaps, not sure. Dexa scans show solid improvement over time.
So you want to drop down to 230? Or 225?

I am so confused now.

Sorry if I misunderstood what you posted about your bodyweight, but you literally wrote, "I am currently now 169lbs at 10% 5’8." That was why I said 10% is a decent starting point for a cycle.
 
Yes and yes, this new school thought of dieting like you’re still cutting but having a goal of growing has been taken too far lately. I could have a guy eat a sufficient and minimum amount of protein for muscular growth (say 150-200 grams/day) and load him up on pbj sandwiches all day, and another guy eating 300+ grams/day protein and “just eat more of the clean foods” and I’ll tell you right now that the dude scarfing down pbj sandwiches will be much larger and stronger! I don’t know why ppl refuse to believe that calories are king when it comes to growth
What up Jon Doe!!!!!! Good to see ya still popping in here! I hope all is well brother!

-EBK
 
That's too fat. Why do that to yourself?



Subsequent cycles are never like the first one. Welcome to bodybuilding. That first cycle will always be your best.

Sorry to tell you, but you will know soon enough, after more cycles. Never again will you have that "new human being." Everything after is adding a little more mass and a little more each time.


A decent body fat percentage to start if you are accurate in your assessment. Maybe try not to go over 14 -15% - that means you are taking in plenty of excess calories, since you added nine pounds of pure fat in addition to water and muscle.



Here is a little secret. If your weight stalls for two weeks, then you are at maintenance calories for that weight. It does not matter that you added 500 calories. If you add 500 calories when you weight 200 pounds, and two weeks later you weight 200 pounds, then your additional 500 calories brought you up to maintenance level.



Yeah. You'll gain something over maintenance. Muscle, fat, and it might be fat, but the scale has to move up if you are over maintenance. If you do not gain weight you are at maintenance.



Welcome to bodybuilding. Remember what I said about never again having your first cycle? That cycle is over and done. It was great, wasn't it? Now get it out of your head and focus on the future. You add small amounts. And they get smaller as you get bigger each subsequent cycle. And, sorry to inform you, you have to eat more as you get bigger. That is just a fact of life. I was pretty miserable on what I had to eat to get over 250 pounds. I did not like it one bit, but I ate what was necessary to keep the scale moving, just as when cutting I had to make the proper downward adjustment to keep cutting.



Don't compare a cycle that got screwed up by an illness. Things happen. That probably won't happen next time.



Wow. All that gear at 169 pounds? 600mg of tren?



169 pounds up to 230 pounds???

Why?

I think maybe now I know the issue. You have unrealistic expectations of what one solitary cycle should add to your frame. 61 pounds should be years of training, not one go for broke cycle.

You are really adding a bunch of fat and water. If you add 7-10 pounds of actual lean tissue, that is, stage weight, single digit body fat, from one cycle to another, that is about what to expect now on your third or fourth (sorry, I lost track) cycle. Third and fourth cycles do not add 61 pounds - and if you do it is a bunch of swelling from water and fat and what a horrible way to go through life. Then you have to cut, cut, cut, wow, and cut some more to see that seven pounds of muscle you gained, hey, I just cut 54 pounds. No, thanks.

Please consider readjusting your goal for one cycle, and maybe getting help with your diet (sincere advice here - I am not a coach, so I have nothing to gain from telling you to consider getting one), six meals of ground beef is not a healthy way to go about this.

I wish you luck, but please maybe look at some of the logs on here in the bodybuilding section, especially @Mac11wildcat 's log, where he shares all sorts of detail about his diet and about his gear use - and it is nothing like what you are doing. There is a lot to be learned there reading the 100 pages or so. There are some other bodybuilders here, too, who are successful amateurs running logs. It might be worth seeing how they eat and their gear use. None of them are trying to gain 61 pounds in one cycle.

Please take some time to read and learn from their examples. You may find it worth your while in the end.
Thanks for that write up I genuinely appreciate that. Even if wanting to push to open size is it still better to gradually increase gear each cycle and not go so high in dose so soon? I see so much different advice everywhere. Reason I say 60lbs is because I see half the guys on Reddit saying they gained 40-60lbs each cycle, some gain 30lbs. It’s always a crazy amount. Lots of different things people have said. For example Nassar El Sonbaty stated his first cycle was 1.5g of AAS and each cycle after that was 2g, 3g, 4g, even stating he’s went up to 10g as well as stating he used 15iu HGH daily throughout his pro career. Obviously he died young so not an amazing example but that just gives me a relative idea of what some guys do to reach open size. Same with Rich piana, not a good example in the slightest just giving examples of people I know to be truthful about what they do. I seem to have a pretty good response to gear nothing incredible. Realistically I know I’m going to have to push the dose eventually for each my goal, it’s just a matter of knowing when to push. Also I think you’re confusing another guys response with mine lol. Last question for ya do you think the illness at the very end of my last cycle caused a major loss in my gains? I was amazed how much I shrunk even after the water dropped
 
Well, reddit can be full of BS.

You can see the logs of bodybuilders here in real time, not made up after the fact. They tell you what they are eating, injecting, and how they are working out and what the scale says today.

There is an IFBB pro in the logs, and you can follow his journey fro the bottom of the amateurs, complete with failures and his dream delayed, in real time as it happens. I guarantee he is not adding 40-60 pounds each cycle. And he is not using the amounts of steroids you are proposing to use now, and he is chasing a Mr. Olympia qualification. We are truly blessed to have him here, rather than him disappearing and asking the owner to take down probably the most valuable thread the site has ever had.

I would urge you to make an effort to sift the wheat from the chaff.

We have some high quality logs here - I am not ashamed to admit I stole lots of information from Mac11wildcat's log to modify my own diet and gear use - resulting in some minor success in bodybuilding as a result (local show win overall at an age older than you are now)

Go and read them.

Consider a coach, as well. That is 10,000 times better than a reddit thread.

Apologies if I confused somebody else's response for yours. I did not jumble things up intentionally.
 

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