My Blood Test Results On Testosterone base In DMSO

[T&H]

Dang, wish I knew someone selling this. Would be a nice break from pinning with similar results.

 

[Temp account5]

Dang, wish I knew someone selling this. Would be a nice break from pinning with similar results.

Dmso is on amazon pretty sure u just mix the powder with it each application

 

[OnTheRize]

Doctors do this because they are decades behind. Google: estrogen prostate pubmed and you should find that E is the main problem with cancer and these studies go back 3 decades. Oddly, my Urologist mentioned this last year. But until medical instructions are altered, doctors must treat this way.

As for 5-ARI's, they do reduce prostate size and PSA but actually hide cancers until they are aggressive and far more dangerous. [ There are threads on this forum both regarding finasteride and the prostate ]

There is even a study showing that SHBG causes prostate problems when elevated through direct action (not its binding to hormones). Curiously, high SHBG will reduce DHT the most, then T some, then E2 a little bit so that the most active hormones shift toward E2.

Great bit of information, thank you. I'll be looking into the studies that support E and DHT's seemingly contrary relationships with prostate issues.

We do seem to find out decades later that our former medical practices had taken an incorrect or off center approach to treating medical issues and this is sometimes due to a lack of implementing the current knowledge we have into the foundation we know and are familiar with...yes, medical practice often lags ass behind academia. However, IMO this is usually linked to some sort of financial gain or loss...I.E. new antibiotics not being developed due to cost of research vs profit by pharmaceutical companies, which have evolved to bear the burden and benefit of both in our society...or...as when the same industry develops a new drug to be patented for the treatment of an outstanding medical condition that could just as easily be treated with a natural, unpatentable, or already cheaply developed compound.
Economics can also be attributed to the a driving force behind advancing the implementation of less expensive medical practices where a extremely large medical debts are affecting our national healthcare system...or more practically...affecting large financial medical institutions such as insurance companies whose profit margins must be satisfied keep our healthcare systems from collapsing in the economic medical ecosystem we've created.
All of that being said...I can understand why academia, research, and medically unestablished, but effective treatments, are not implemented well into, or integrated for, the use of life saving medical treatments which would only serve to benefit smaller portions of the population with said life threatening issues.
What I don't understand is why we would not immediately utilize already firm medical research and it's resulting data to treat a cancer which is the second most common in all men and approximately the fourth most common in all people. Not only is it a very common type of cancer, it is one that is a major financial burden treatment wise with a fairly high mortality rate with respect to other common forms of cancer. In an economic environment of medicine, no one is profiting here. The exact opposite appears to be true...we are placing a burden on the financial institution of medical healthcare and it's financial benefactors.
Where the treatment of most other life threatening illnesses benefits some financial entity or prevents greater financial loss to those entities as a whole.

...I just realized I'm ranting brother...sorry about that...just spent 45 minutes on a tirade...might as well post it.

I am very interested in what you're stating regarding estrogens and their relationship to prostate cancer and I am eager to look into these studies.

I'm impressed if you actually read all this @Old

Dang, wish I knew someone selling this. Would be a nice break from pinning with similar results.

DMSO is not a regulated chemical in any way and should be easy to obtain. I haven't looked in awhile but I suspect Ebay would sell it in medical grade form (99%+ purity). If you can't easily find it online, then look up Unitednuclear...that chemical company has a lot of cool shit and is run by non other than Bob Lazar (the area 51 guy). I used to order from Unitednuclear a lot. Very quality products and completely legal.
@Goingstronger may be onto something with using DMSO and raws. I will be looking into possibly using it in the future pending my research on it's safety regarding the impurities in manufactured, fresh off the boat raw AAS compounds.

Cheers

 

[Deleted member 59947]

Interesting...didn't know this and am definitely not going to argue it but are there any studies to support the idea that DHT doesn't promote BPH and LUTS? I'd like to research it.
It's particularly interesting because doctors still prescribe 5-ARI's as the first line of defense to treat BPH. Why would Finasteride and Dutasteride still be prescribed to men with BPH? These medications are also thought to aid in reducing present prostate cancers by one third via reducing the amount of DHT present in the bloodstream by about 25-55%

What are your thoughts?

Check this out

DHT May Treat Prostate Cancer, Estrogen (E2) Strongly Promotes It

and

Drostanolone (a DHT Isomer) May Treat Prostate Cancer

 

[OnTheRize]

Check this out

DHT May Treat Prostate Cancer, Estrogen (E2) Strongly Promotes It

and

Drostanolone (a DHT Isomer) May Treat Prostate Cancer

Interesting posts. Both you and @Old have me looking up PubMed articles to research this. Appreciate the leads.

Oh...BTW, I recently found out that some compounding pharmacies are using DMSO mixed in with their T-creams to make more condensed absorbable versions for TRT...well...Empower and APS were doing this at one point for specific doctors...dunno if this practice is still being utilized though. Thought you might want to know.

 

[Old]

Great bit of information, thank you. I'll be looking into the studies that support E and DHT's seemingly contrary relationships with prostate issues.

We do seem to find out decades later that our former medical practices had taken an incorrect or off center approach to treating medical issues and this is sometimes due to a lack of implementing the current knowledge we have into the foundation we know and are familiar with...yes, medical practice often lags ass behind academia. However, IMO this is usually linked to some sort of financial gain or loss...I.E. new antibiotics not being developed due to cost of research vs profit by pharmaceutical companies, which have evolved to bear the burden and benefit of both in our society...or...as when the same industry develops a new drug to be patented for the treatment of an outstanding medical condition that could just as easily be treated with a natural, unpatentable, or already cheaply developed compound.
Economics can also be attributed to the a driving force behind advancing the implementation of less expensive medical practices where a extremely large medical debts are affecting our national healthcare system...or more practically...affecting large financial medical institutions such as insurance companies whose profit margins must be satisfied keep our healthcare systems from collapsing in the economic medical ecosystem we've created.
All of that being said...I can understand why academia, research, and medically unestablished, but effective treatments, are not implemented well into, or integrated for, the use of life saving medical treatments which would only serve to benefit smaller portions of the population with said life threatening issues.
What I don't understand is why we would not immediately utilize already firm medical research and it's resulting data to treat a cancer which is the second most common in all men and approximately the fourth most common in all people. Not only is it a very common type of cancer, it is one that is a major financial burden treatment wise with a fairly high mortality rate with respect to other common forms of cancer. In an economic environment of medicine, no one is profiting here. The exact opposite appears to be true...we are placing a burden on the financial institution of medical healthcare and it's financial benefactors.
Where the treatment of most other life threatening illnesses benefits some financial entity or prevents greater financial loss to those entities as a whole.

...I just realized I'm ranting brother...sorry about that...just spent 45 minutes on a tirade...might as well post it.

I am very interested in what you're stating regarding estrogens and their relationship to prostate cancer and I am eager to look into these studies.

I'm impressed if you actually read all this @Old



DMSO is not a regulated chemical in any way and should be easy to obtain. I haven't looked in awhile but I suspect Ebay would sell it in medical grade form (99%+ purity). If you can't easily find it online, then look up Unitednuclear...that chemical company has a lot of cool shit and is run by non other than Bob Lazar (the area 51 guy). I used to order from Unitednuclear a lot. Very quality products and completely legal.
@Goingstronger may be onto something with using DMSO and raws. I will be looking into possibly using it in the future pending my research on it's safety regarding the impurities in manufactured, fresh off the boat raw AAS compounds.

Cheers

You may enjoy this study to put DHT, E2 and the prostate in perspective: A role for dihydrotestosterone treatment in older men?

• 114 healthy, eugonadal men who received 2 years of either DHT treatment with a transdermal, pharmacologic dose of 70 mg DHT gel daily, or matching placebo gel.
• There were no serious adverse events and a high retention rate for such a long study (71% completed all study procedures).
  
• As expected, the DHT-treated group had a 10-fold increase in serum DHT levels, well above the normal range of circulating DHT
  
• The extremely high serum levels of DHT achieved in this study lead to significant gonadotropin suppression, thereby reducing circulating testosterone levels to nearly castrate levels and reducing circulating estradiol levels by 90%.
  
• In summary, this is an important, well-designed study evaluating the effect of high doses of exogenous DHT in normal men, demonstrating that supraphysiologic levels of DHT neither inhibit nor promote prostate growth in men.

 

[Sworder]

You may enjoy this study to put DHT, E2 and the prostate in perspective: A role for dihydrotestosterone treatment in older men?

Is that a study? Did you read the whole thing?

 

[Old]

Is that a study? Did you read the whole thing?

Yes, I read the whole thing. If you want the actual study, see reference #3 [ Long-term effects of dihydrotestosterone treatment on prostate growth in healthy, middle-aged men without prostate disease: a randomized, placebo-c... - PubMed - NCBI ]. I, however, am not going to pay for the copy. If you have one, or find it elsewhere, please post it. Thank you

Edit: Here is a copy (PDF) Long-Term Effects of Dihydrotestosterone Treatment on Prostate Growth in Healthy, Middle-Aged Men Without Prostate Disease A Randomized, Placebo-Controlled Trial

 

[Sworder]

Yes, I read the whole thing. If you want the actual study, see reference #3 [ Long-term effects of dihydrotestosterone treatment on prostate growth in healthy, middle-aged men without prostate disease: a randomized, placebo-c... - PubMed - NCBI ]. I, however, am not going to pay for the copy. If you have one, or find it elsewhere, please post it. Thank you

Edit: Here is a copy (PDF) Long-Term Effects of Dihydrotestosterone Treatment on Prostate Growth in Healthy, Middle-Aged Men Without Prostate Disease A Randomized, Placebo-Controlled Trial

Well let's talk about it!!!

"Protocol-specific discontinuations due to DHT were asymptomatic increased hematocrit (n = 8), which resolved after stopping treatment, and increased prostate-specific antigen levels (n = 3; none with prostate cancer) in the DHT group. No serious adverse effects due to DHT occurred."

So they gave a bunch of guys DHT for 2 years and they set up certain rules if this and that happen to discontinue use. So three people got an increase in PSA which is the most important biomarker for PCa?

But the purpose of the study is to show that DHT is neither good or bad for "prostate growth?"

So I have to ask myself, who cares about prostate growth anyway?

They shutdown the HPTA with the supraphysiological DHT so that will exclude any possible hormonal interactions that may occur. But the study design itself, eh, yeah... I guess DHT is the superior androgen and we should all switch to DHT for our HRT to avoid PCa? Don't think so.

Anyway, that's my opinion what was your take away @Old?
Or maybe you just thought it was interesting.

 

[Old]

T will also potentially raise HCT and/or PSA, so those who discontinued are in line with those who quit TRT.

As for PSA being the 'most important biomarker for PCa': the occurrence of advanced PCa's with finasteride which lowered PSA to a false sense of security suggests this isn't such a good marker.

The purpose of the study was to "To test the hypothesis that dihydrotestosterone (DHT), a nonamplifiable and nonaromatizable pure androgen, reduces late-life prostate growth in middle-aged men". The hypotheses failed - it did not reduce prostate growth. But neither did it increase it.

My take?

• DHT has been vilified, yet it is a critical hormone. This study was only 2 years but others done were only several weeks - which borders on pointless. At any rate, DHT seems no more a devil than T. Mens' prostates didn't balloon. OnTheRize was wondering why Goingstronger wants more DHT and why docs prescribe finasteride for BPH - the understanding that DHT is problematic.
• Initially was taken by the high dose of DHT but with a little thought it makes sense.
• The demonstration that the HPT is shut down with androgens alone, not just E2 - this point is often missed by forum members.
• Lack of vascular complications surprised some since it has long been thought that E2 is needed for vascular health - thus post-menopausal women having more arterioloscleroses. [ That assumption is over reduced since Fe is well known to be a problem and bleeding women have lower Fe. Stop bleeding and Fe rises, etc ... ] [ As another side, they find DHT prevents foam cells from forming (an important part of making plaque) - that study was rabbits forced to eat eggs ... but hey, rabbits forced to eat eggs was the start of the whole 'cholesterol hypothesis'. ]
• Low E2 negatively affected bones. Not a surprise but many men think only androgens are needed and that high androgens make osteoporosis a non-concern.
• Thanks to your motivating me to find the full study: one sees that DHT isn't particularly good for bodybuilders to gain mass. Some assume so because DHT has significantly stronger affinity and efficacy with ARs. Take 10+ times normal T and one would likely see better strength and body mass changes. (though the study wasn't about exercising).

In many ways this could be regarded as trivia. But I like data and studies that at least attempt some sort of duration. The authors of the study took more parameters than just PSA (many studies waste opportunity by looking myopically at their goal.)

 

[Sworder]

T will also potentially raise HCT and/or PSA, so those who discontinued are in line with those who quit TRT.

As for PSA being the 'most important biomarker for PCa': the occurrence of advanced PCa's with finasteride which lowered PSA to a false sense of security suggests this isn't such a good marker.

The purpose of the study was to "To test the hypothesis that dihydrotestosterone (DHT), a nonamplifiable and nonaromatizable pure androgen, reduces late-life prostate growth in middle-aged men". The hypotheses failed - it did not reduce prostate growth. But neither did it increase it.

My take?

• DHT has been vilified, yet it is a critical hormone. This study was only 2 years but others done were only several weeks - which borders on pointless. At any rate, DHT seems no more a devil than T. Mens' prostates didn't balloon. OnTheRize was wondering why Goingstronger wants more DHT and why docs prescribe finasteride for BPH - the understanding that DHT is problematic.
• Initially was taken by the high dose of DHT but with a little thought it makes sense.
• The demonstration that the HPT is shut down with androgens alone, not just E2 - this point is often missed by forum members.
• Lack of vascular complications surprised some since it has long been thought that E2 is needed for vascular health - thus post-menopausal women having more arterioloscleroses. [ That assumption is over reduced since Fe is well known to be a problem and bleeding women have lower Fe. Stop bleeding and Fe rises, etc ... ] [ As another side, they find DHT prevents foam cells from forming (an important part of making plaque) - that study was rabbits forced to eat eggs ... but hey, rabbits forced to eat eggs was the start of the whole 'cholesterol hypothesis'. ]
• Low E2 negatively affected bones. Not a surprise but many men think only androgens are needed and that high androgens make osteoporosis a non-concern.
• Thanks to your motivating me to find the full study: one sees that DHT isn't particularly good for bodybuilders to gain mass. Some assume so because DHT has significantly stronger affinity and efficacy with ARs. Take 10+ times normal T and one would likely see better strength and body mass changes. (though the study wasn't about exercising).

In many ways this could be regarded as trivia. But I like data and studies that at least attempt some sort of duration. The authors of the study took more parameters than just PSA (many studies waste opportunity by looking myopically at their goal.)

Thanks for taking the time to respond!

Yes, DHT is horrible for bodybuilders as there are tons of 3a-HSD enzymes in skeletal muscle. That enzymes breaks down DHT and keeps it from becoming active, that's why the other "DHT derivative" AAS were developed to circumvent this problem.

I think it is very foolish to take DHT as an attempt to reduce SHBG. These hormones have so many functions in our body and just because we have an "intended purpose" doesn't mean that is going to be the only thing that happens.

I wasn't talking about if PSA was a good marker or not, it is the biomarker used for early PCa detection. Cancer is so complicated...

You have some other points there too that I don't have much to respond to. Yeah, e2 is more suppressive than androgens on a mg:mg basis.

Cheers.
Thanks again for your insight.

 

[Old]

Thanks for taking the time to respond!

Yes, DHT is horrible for bodybuilders as there are tons of 3a-HSD enzymes in skeletal muscle. That enzymes breaks down DHT and keeps it from becoming active, that's why the other "DHT derivative" AAS were developed to circumvent this problem.

I think it is very foolish to take DHT as an attempt to reduce SHBG. These hormones have so many functions in our body and just because we have an "intended purpose" doesn't mean that is going to be the only thing that happens.

I wasn't talking about if PSA was a good marker or not, it is the biomarker used for early PCa detection. Cancer is so complicated...

You have some other points there too that I don't have much to respond to. Yeah, e2 is more suppressive than androgens on a mg:mg basis.

Cheers.
Thanks again for your insight.

Yea, threw in a few extra for thought, lol. Everything is complicated.

With that study, the DHT dose crashed T and thus E2. So with practically no E2, HPT was shut down.

I would like to try DHT but it seems impossible to find, no doubt due to bodybuilders having little interest. Mainly companies selling DHT cream for penis enlargement - a scam for adults and kids shouldn't go there. My interest is in CNS effects.

 

[OnTheRize]

You may enjoy this study to put DHT, E2 and the prostate in perspective: A role for dihydrotestosterone treatment in older men?

Good read, very interesting Old.

[ Long-term effects of dihydrotestosterone treatment on prostate growth in healthy, middle-aged men without prostate disease: a randomized, placebo-c... - PubMed - NCBI ]. I, however, am not going to pay for the copy. If you have one, or find it elsewhere, please post it. Thank you

Appreciate you posting the study. If you have any information you would like to share that would require purchasing, please reference it anyway and I can look it up. I'm not currently in school this year so I don't have a portal key to look up archived academic publications but I have access to the online archives from my university campus nearby. Any studies you reference, I can find, with the exception of many university specific published archives...PubMed is still a goldmine.

Yea, threw in a few extra for thought, lol. Everything is complicated.

With that study, the DHT dose crashed T and thus E2. So with practically no E2, HPT was shut down.

I would like to try DHT but it seems impossible to find, no doubt due to bodybuilders having little interest. Mainly companies selling DHT cream for penis enlargement - a scam for adults and kids shouldn't go there. My interest is in CNS effects.

Additional studies don't hurt. I'll wind up reading them regardless.

It may be a bit of a long shot but you could ask "The Pharmacist" here if he can provide Andractim gel. He's in Europe and is, to the best of my knowledge, a legitimate pharmacist. Andractim and it's generic equivalent is not listed on his thread but a lot of things he provides are not. Depending on what country he's in, he may have it on hand...worth a shot IMO

 

[Deleted member 59947]

Good read, very interesting Old.

Appreciate you posting the study. If you have any information you would like to share that would require purchasing, please reference it anyway and I can look it up. I'm not currently in school this year so I don't have a portal key to look up archived academic publications but I have access to the online archives from my university campus nearby. Any studies you reference, I can find, with the exception of many university specific published archives...PubMed is still a goldmine.

Additional studies don't hurt. I'll wind up reading them regardless.

It may be a bit of a long shot but you could ask "The Pharmacist" here if he can provide Andractim gel. He's in Europe and is, to the best of my knowledge, a legitimate pharmacist. Andractim and it's generic equivalent is not listed on his thread but a lot of things he provides are not. Depending on what country he's in, he may have it on hand...worth a shot IMO

I've tried Andractim, 3 tubes total.
Low, medium, and very high dose to compare effects.
Very unimpressed by the stuff.
Even at high doses (a third of a tube in a day) I didn't feel much but low e2 sides.
Libido was meh

 

[OnTheRize]

I've tried Andractim, 3 tubes total.
Low, medium, and very high dose to compare effects.
Very unimpressed by the stuff.
Even at high doses (a third of a tube in a day) I didn't feel much but low e2 sides.
Libido was meh

I've never looked into DHT gel myself. Didn't see any reason why anyone would do so until I read some of the studies you guys posted about DHT and prostate issues possibly being unrelated.

Still curious though...what benefits do you find from increased DHT levels personally? Libido, lower SHBG, better health markers, what exactly does it benefit in you?

I know @Old was curious about trying DHT cream though so I thought I'd mention Andractim from Europe. Did you get any bloods drawn on Andractim to see if it actually raised your DHT?

 

[Deleted member 59947]

Anyone has tried mixing test prop in DMSO?
That shit crystalises at 100mg/ml, I wonder if at lower concentrations it doesn't.

 

[alsameesh]

Anyone has tried mixing test prop in DMSO?
That shit crystalises at 100mg/ml, I wonder if at lower concentrations it doesn't.

The only other ester I have had success with is acetate.

How long do you store your test+DMSO solutions for? Do you mix up large batches at once, or more like 1 week supply at a time? Have you encountered any reason to worry about shelf life of the test once dissolved in DMSO?

Also where do your source your DMSO from? Amazon?

 

[KingDHT]

The only other ester I have had success with is acetate.

How long do you store your test+DMSO solutions for? Do you mix up large batches at once, or more like 1 week supply at a time? Have you encountered any reason to worry about shelf life of the test once dissolved in DMSO?

Also where do your source your DMSO from? Amazon?

You tried topical testosterone acetate in dmso?

 

[Deleted member 59947]

The only other ester I have had success with is acetate.

How long do you store your test+DMSO solutions for? Do you mix up large batches at once, or more like 1 week supply at a time? Have you encountered any reason to worry about shelf life of the test once dissolved in DMSO?

Also where do your source your DMSO from? Amazon?

That's the one I use, very high purity:

DMSO De Qualité Pharmaceutique

Diméthylsulfoxyde (DMSO) de qualité pharmaceutique supérieure selon la Pharmacopée européenne (Ph. Eur.) ✓ Composé organique soufré

www.sunday.fr

DMSO would eventually slightly oxidise when put repeatedly in contact with air, but that would take a long time.
Adding small amounts of benzyl alcohol would solve that.

What concentration did you reach with test ace in DMSO without crystalization?

 

[alsameesh]

That's the one I use, very high purity........



...What concentration did you reach with test ace in DMSO without crystalization?

Thanks for sharing, are you in France or having that shipped?

With Acetate, I actually wasnt using testosterone. Trestolone Acetate dissolves just fine up to 50 mg/mL. It probably goes even higher but trest is potent enough to not need it.
I also tried Boldenone Acetate. That I remember staying gritty and incompletely dissolved when attempting 100 mg / mL.

Are you trying to get a time-release effect for your transdermals with ester usage, or is it just easier to get test ace in your situation? With daily application, I think base works just fine in that regard. Heres a paper I found:

Pharmacokinetics of testosterone cream applied to scrotal skin - PubMed

Scrotal skin is thin and has high steroid permeability, but the pharmacokinetics of testosterone via the scrotal skin route has not been studied in detail. The aim of this study was to define the pharmacokinetics of testosterone delivered via the scrotal skin route. The study was a...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Test levels were found to peak in 2 hours, but maintained at "physiological levels" for 16 hours. So, maybe one application in the morning, one in the early mid day 6 hours later, would be best.