my liver is pissed off

[crewboss]

what's up - i have more news, still not outta the woods...


ice - yeah my doctor asked to see it again and he checked for anything unusual and he said there was nothing there. sounds like your situation is ok, although i'm not sure what lipoma is - it doesn't sound very serious, which i'm sure relieves you.

g ghost - yeah i've never thought twice about my liver before this bro, i've always taken proper precautions by keeping myself properly hydrated and using liver protection when running a 17aa, but i do enjoy a drink or 2 and i've been no stranger to chemicals known to increase liver enzymes in the past, thus my concern... i've heard the same about tylenol - most every drug is hard on the liver if taken with consistency and for a long duration. if it's necessary to take them, make sure to add some liver protection every now and again, and always stay hydrated. it's good that you don't drink much - that's a huge factor. i, on the other hand, have a hard time laying off the booze unless i'm on cycle..

so i now know more about my situation, but there are still questions... i got my blood tests back and everything was fine. my enzyme levels were very good and everything else was normal. cholesterol was very slightly elevated to 160, which is definitely nothing to worry about. everything else was right on target. so now i know that the rib is ok, and my liver is ok.

so back to my original question - WHAT THE HELL IS THE KNOT. my doctor is not sure so i made an appointment for an ultrasound on March 1. that, hopefully, will tell the whole story. somehow i know more than i did a couple weeks ago about this situation, yet at this point i'm no more comfortable about it. i'm sure it's nothing but until i know for sure i'll be wondering what the hell it is... thanks for the support, and good luck and keep me posted on your situations as well...

 

[ad234]

Apap

Anything new, crewboss? I'm interested in hearing how this plays out, both for your safety and for the general knowledge of the forum. I'm a bit of a liver freak; more specifically, liver damage is probably the one side effect of dosing I am most concerned with. (Well, other than the gyno, but I have mountains of Nolvadex to deal with that.)

Anyway, as mentioned, I am very interested in the results of your tests. I've only run orals once, but have plans to do so again soon. Last time, I dosed Winstrol and DBol for about four weeks without any noticeable problems. This time it will just be DBol for five weeks. The complicating factor is that I'm on some medicine known as Imuran that has some potential for liver damage. I don't drink other than the occasional glass of wine, and I'll stop that completely--and add milk thistle--when I start the DBol.

My biggest concern is that once or twice a week, I get bad headaches and muscle aches and usually take Tylenol to get rid of the pain. (Tylenol is the only drug I can take; the others can worsen an inflammatory condition I suffer from.) Anyway, as you all know, Tylenol is one of the most destructive drugs to the liver. I usually take two or three grams to chase the pain away. I'm worried that if I do this while on DBol, I'll lose the ol' liver.

On the other hand, I've read quite a few studies on APAP, and manufacturers have really erred on the side of caution. In other words, there is convincing evidence that one could take 10 Tylenol with three beers every once and a while and still be OK. It's long-term, sustained use of the product that can kill (and liver failure, I've heard, is one of the most agonizing ways to die).

So, I guess the question becomes: should I stay away from Tylenol altogether while on DBol, or is once or twice a week going to be OK? I don't want to divert this thread from crewboss' original concerns, but thought this might be a good place to raise some general questions as well.

Thanks,

GG

Ideally you could drop the tylenol altogether, but that is easy for me to say. Maybe try to go with the as little as possible to get by instead of hitting the multiple gram range. Hope this helps, it's long-term/sustained stress on the liver which is worse than occasional "shocks" the liver. So you are better off taking your tylenol 1 or twice a week in high doses as opposed to taking low doses for a sustained period of time. When I was taking accutaine, the guy doing my liver work says it is the stress and how hard you work the liver which causes the enzymes to go up and inflammation to occur. When you take something for long periods of time you never give the liver time to "rest"/clear itself out as opposed to geting shocked once and awhile and then having time to recouperate. So the dball stressing your liver everyday is your real concern, if it is going to ruin your workout schedule and defeat the purpose of taking dball to abstain from the tylenol a couple of times a week, IMO take it because although its going to stress your liver, your liver is already being stressed by the dball. Do all you can as far as liver protectants (I posted above a list of the more effective/proven liver aids) and the most important thing is to make sure that once you are off the dball is when you give your liver significant time to recouperate and rest. So post dball is when I would make sure you have taken everything that might effect the liver out of your body. You've chosen to do dball so you have to take into acount the liver stress as part of the deal, just make sure post dball you give ample time to let your liver rest. The liver is pretty resilient and rengenerative IF given the opportunity to rest. Even severe alcoholics have their liver return to normal if they abstain long enough. Hope this helps...

 

[gyno_ghost]

Ideally you could drop the tylenol altogether, but that is easy for me to say. Maybe try to go with the as little as possible to get by instead of hitting the multiple gram range. Hope this helps, it's long-term/sustained stress on the liver which is worse than occasional "shocks" the liver. So you are better off taking your tylenol 1 or twice a week in high doses as opposed to taking low doses for a sustained period of time. When I was taking accutaine, the guy doing my liver work says it is the stress and how hard you work the liver which causes the enzymes to go up and inflammation to occur. When you take something for long periods of time you never give the liver time to "rest"/clear itself out as opposed to geting shocked once and awhile and then having time to recouperate. So the dball stressing your liver everyday is your real concern, if it is going to ruin your workout schedule and defeat the purpose of taking dball to abstain from the tylenol a couple of times a week, IMO take it because although its going to stress your liver, your liver is already being stressed by the dball. Do all you can as far as liver protectants (I posted above a list of the more effective/proven liver aids) and the most important thing is to make sure that once you are off the dball is when you give your liver significant time to recouperate and rest. So post dball is when I would make sure you have taken everything that might effect the liver out of your body. You've chosen to do dball so you have to take into acount the liver stress as part of the deal, just make sure post dball you give ample time to let your liver rest. The liver is pretty resilient and rengenerative IF given the opportunity to rest. Even severe alcoholics have their liver return to normal if they abstain long enough. Hope this helps...

Thanks, ad234, for your well thought-out reply. Your remarks are very much in line with what has been on my mind as I prepare for my cycle. As you mentioned, prolonged use of liver-toxic chemicals can be far more damaging than the occasional "shock" to this vital organ. As mentioned, I presently venture into the high range of Tylenol use only twice per week, and I think I could probably cut that in half while on Dbol. I will be running the Dbol for only five weeks at a relatively low dosage of 30 mg per day, and with alcohol out of the question, the once-weekly shock to my system should not, in my opinion, do me in.

After my five weeks of 17-aa usage are over, I'll have a long break for my values to return to normal. I also have the advantage of undergoing liver tests periodically to monitor the aforementioned Imuran levels, so if anything were wrong, at least I would know about it before it reached the point of no return. On your advice, I'll be incorporating ALA and milk thistle into my plans as well. I've used milk thistle before but was always skeptical of its efficacy. Seeing how everyone here at the forum swears by it, though, I think I'd be foolish not to include it each day.

Thanks again for your reply.

GG

 

[gyno_ghost]

so back to my original question - WHAT THE HELL IS THE KNOT. my doctor is not sure so i made an appointment for an ultrasound on March 1. that, hopefully, will tell the whole story. somehow i know more than i did a couple weeks ago about this situation, yet at this point i'm no more comfortable about it. i'm sure it's nothing but until i know for sure i'll be wondering what the hell it is... thanks for the support, and good luck and keep me posted on your situations as well...

Strange. A friend of mine dislocated a rib and had a knot similar to yours. I think it was the result of scar tissue or some other reaction to the displaced rib. You mentioned, however, that you'd already had this possibility investigated, with negative results, so I am just as stumped as you are. Please do keep us posted with the latest.

Thanks,

GG