Natural GH/IGF-1 and insulin sensitivity/blood sugar control

[NFRCR]

Hi!

I would like to ask opinions of other members about the relation of GH secretion/IGF-1 production and insulin sensitivity/blood sugar control.

I have two conditions that are bothering me.

1) I have low IGF-1, ~130 ng/mL. This is definitely not something I've always had. At age 19 I had IGF-1 level of 390. At age 22 I had IGF-1 level of 290. After that it has been declining. I rarely getting higher values in the range 160-180, but mostly it's around 130. I am 27 currently.

2) Poor blood sugar control. This is also something that has developed in the recent years. My fasted blood sugar used to be 86 mg/dL (4.8 mmol/L). Now it's 92-95 mg/dL (5.1 - 5.3 mmol/L). I used to eat heavy meals and after 1.5 hours my blood sugar was 86 mg/dL (4.8 mmol/L). Now after a heavy meal I might see 153 mg/dL (8.5 mmol/L) after 0.5-1h and 108 mg/dL (6.0 mmol/L) after 2-3h. I am not considered a diabetic, but I would guess these are signs of pre-diabetes. However, my HbA1c (3 months average blood sugar) has been in range.

Could there be a relationship between these two? Does low IGF-1 lead to bad blood sugar control, or does bad blood sugar control lead to low IGF-1?

I have decided to come off high-dose steroids and now just running a cruise dose of Test-E 300 mg/week which puts me at serum Testosterone 1500 ng/dL. I have observed that on this low dose the blood sugar control has slightly got better than compared to when I was on Tren as well.

Additionally I also take Exemestane 25mg EOD, E2 is within normal range (not too low, not too high). I was on Pramipexole 1.04 mg/day for many years which I am currently tapering down and will eventually discontinue to see if it has anything to do with my low IGF-1 levels.

 

[Jeffg353]

Since there's a few different symptoms involved, have u been to see a Dr?

 

[NFRCR]

Since there's a few different symptoms involved, have u been to see a Dr?

If coming off Pramipexole does not help then I will. To get the GH/IGF-1 issue investigated I think I need to come off Test too I think. I can imagine the endocrinologist will test for various hormones.

 

[Jeffg353]

If coming off Pramipexole does not help then I will. To get the GH/IGF-1 issue investigated I think I need to come off Test too I think. I can imagine the endocrinologist will test for various hormones.

If u come off completely ur going to be shut down myb just run TRT level dose. However I believe test is supposed to increase igf-1 production

 

[NFRCR]

Yeah, I could use a very low dose. However, I do not have a prescription for Test. If LH and FSH get tested as part of the hormone panel I will have some explaining to do why I am taking exogenous Test. No doc wants to even treat someone who is taking steroids without a prescription.

It's a complicated situation.

 

[gobigorgohome1218]

Hi!

I would like to ask opinions of other members about the relation of GH secretion/IGF-1 production and insulin sensitivity/blood sugar control.

I have two conditions that are bothering me.

1) I have low IGF-1, ~130 ng/mL. This is definitely not something I've always had. At age 19 I had IGF-1 level of 390. At age 22 I had IGF-1 level of 290. After that it has been declining. I rarely getting higher values in the range 160-180, but mostly it's around 130. I am 27 currently.

2) Poor blood sugar control. This is also something that has developed in the recent years. My fasted blood sugar used to be 86 mg/dL (4.8 mmol/L). Now it's 92-95 mg/dL (5.1 - 5.3 mmol/L). I used to eat heavy meals and after 1.5 hours my blood sugar was 86 mg/dL (4.8 mmol/L). Now after a heavy meal I might see 153 mg/dL (8.5 mmol/L) after 0.5-1h and 108 mg/dL (6.0 mmol/L) after 2-3h. I am not considered a diabetic, but I would guess these are signs of pre-diabetes. However, my HbA1c (3 months average blood sugar) has been in range.

Could there be a relationship between these two? Does low IGF-1 lead to bad blood sugar control, or does bad blood sugar control lead to low IGF-1?

I have decided to come off high-dose steroids and now just running a cruise dose of Test-E 300 mg/week which puts me at serum Testosterone 1500 ng/dL. I have observed that on this low dose the blood sugar control has slightly got better than compared to when I was on Tren as well.

Additionally I also take Exemestane 25mg EOD, E2 is within normal range (not too low, not too high). I was on Pramipexole 1.04 mg/day for many years which I am currently tapering down and will eventually discontinue to see if it has anything to do with my low IGF-1 levels.

IGF-1 certainly does have an effect. IGF-1 enhanced insulin sensitivity, lowers Gh, facilitates fatty acid utilization. Either way given the various gear your on most endocrinologist would require you to stop everything, get your T in TRT ranges and then start the work up. Not knowing your composition, lifestyle, fam hx, etc makes this discussion more acedemic than helpful I'm afraid. Completely agree with Jeffg353.....you should see someone. P.S. Testosterone does elevate IGF-1. Another reason this is quite complex given the information you've provided.

 

[fodsod]

You may want to try adding MK677 to boost your IGF levels. I've seen mine go up +70 even while running HGH for 5 months at 5uis ED with MK677 at 30mgs taken at night. Timing isn't relevant because it works over a 24 hour period unlike dosing HGH which is in and out quickly. It's relatively cheap, easy to get and works for most people as long as it's legit. It will not give you HGH level results but it's a great alternative that does work. I've post blood work previously to support my experience.

On your blood sugar you can try Berberine at 1000-1500mgs per day. Google it. Studies show it's just as effective as Metformin (used for diabetics to control blood sugar) but doesn't have a lot of the nasty side effects. Add some Milk Thistle with it at about 100mgs per dose to help absorption.

This is a inexpensive route to address your issues that you can run for months at a time.

 

[gobigorgohome1218]

You may want to try adding MK677 to boost your IGF levels. I've seen mine go up +70 even while running HGH for 5 months at 5uis ED with MK677 at 30mgs taken at night. Timing isn't relevant because it works over a 24 hour period unlike dosing HGH which is in and out quickly. It's relatively cheap, easy to get and works for most people as long as it's legit. It will not give you HGH level results but it's a great alternative that does work. I've post blood work previously to support my experience.

On your blood sugar you can try Berberine at 1000-1500mgs per day. Google it. Studies show it's just as effective as Metformin (used for diabetics to control blood sugar) but doesn't have a lot of the nasty side effects. Add some Milk Thistle with it at about 100mgs per dose to help absorption.

This is a inexpensive route to address your issues that you can run for months at a time.

I hope I get a similar response to Mk677...waiting for mine to come in. Will start at 25mg every pm. Makes a lot of sense to utilize as much native GH as you possibly can!

 

[NFRCR]

You may want to try adding MK677 to boost your IGF levels. I've seen mine go up +70 even while running HGH for 5 months at 5uis ED with MK677 at 30mgs taken at night. Timing isn't relevant because it works over a 24 hour period unlike dosing HGH which is in and out quickly. It's relatively cheap, easy to get and works for most people as long as it's legit. It will not give you HGH level results but it's a great alternative that does work. I've post blood work previously to support my experience.

On your blood sugar you can try Berberine at 1000-1500mgs per day. Google it. Studies show it's just as effective as Metformin (used for diabetics to control blood sugar) but doesn't have a lot of the nasty side effects. Add some Milk Thistle with it at about 100mgs per dose to help absorption.

This is a inexpensive route to address your issues that you can run for months at a time.

Thank you for the the advice.

I actually have some MK-677 in hand, just haven't put it to use yet. I will also test serum GH when on MK-677. When does it usually peak after taking the dose?

Are there any other supplements besides Berberine that would be close to or on bar with Metformin or is Berberine the best? Just thinking if it makes sense to stack any supplements that contribute to better blood sugar control.

Regarding Milk Thistle, it has been shown to decrease IGF-1 production in liver in response to GH. I probably don't want to use it before my next blood test at least. I want a nice IGF-1 number to feel better about this whole thing.

 

[fodsod]

Thank you for the the advice.

I actually have some MK-677 in hand, just haven't put it to use yet. I will also test serum GH when on MK-677. When does it usually peak after taking the dose?

Are there any other supplements besides Berberine that would be close to or on bar with Metformin or is Berberine the best? Just thinking if it makes sense to stack any supplements that contribute to better blood sugar control.

Regarding Milk Thistle, it has been shown to decrease IGF-1 production in liver in response to GH. I probably don't want to use it before my next blood test at least. I want a nice IGF-1 number to feel better about this whole thing.

MK677 works over 24 hours creating small pulses over that time frame. There is no "optimal release point" to time it for testing like doing a GH serum test. You'll most likely see little to no changes in serum GH levels anyway as it takes a massive 10iu dose of actual exogenous GH to create a noticeable spike. The spikes from MK677 won't produce anything remotely close to that type of reaction. IGF level monitoring is your best bet to see progress.

Berbarine is the only OTC supplement out there that has been studied in human trials and proven to be as effective as Metformin. So everything else is a hit or miss. If you're concerned then just use the Metformin.

FYI, 300 mg daily of Milk Thistle isn't going to affect your IGF levels much if at all. But not using it with Berbarine will definitely make the Berbarine not work as well. Berbarine isn't absorbed very well on it's own.

You could just go with Metformin 1000-1500 mgs daily and real GH at 4-6 ius ED. That would solve your issues.

 

[Jeffg353]

Check this article out

ConsumerLab.com - independent tests and reviews of vitamin, mineral, and herbal supplements

 

[Thaistick]

Pramipexole is supposed to raise growth hormone and therefore igf1 levels. I doubt stopping it will help with what you are trying to achieve.

 

[NFRCR]

Pramipexole is supposed to raise growth hormone and therefore igf1 levels. I doubt stopping it will help with what you are trying to achieve.

The thing is DA agonists is complicated. Dopamine and its agonists result in increased secretion of GHRH (signals GH secretion) and decreased secretion of Somatostatin (signals GH suppression) in hypothalamus. In pituitary it results in decreased secretion of GH in response to GHRH. The effect in pituitary manifests itself under certain conditions only, it is thought it happens if dopamine receptors get sensitized. For example in more than 50% of acromegalics all DA agonists result in decreased GH secretion.

The only study showing Pramipexole resulting in increased GH secretion in healthy individuals was done using a single one-time dose. I have yet to see abnormally high IGF-1 levels in blood test results for people who take Pramipexole daily for Prolactin suppression on cycle. Yes, there are people who say they think they feel the GH effects of Pramipexole because of sleepiness but have no bloodwork to back those claims up.

I hypothesize that consecutive Pramipexole dosing will have effects in both hypothalamus (increase) and pituitary (decrease) - therefore the sum effect will be decreased GH secretion. This would especially be the case with the extended-release version of Pramipexole that I have - it causes stable levels instead of peaks which are needed for GH pulsing.

To back up the above, Cabergoline, which has a long half-life results in decreased GH secretion even in healthy individuals. There is also evidence of low IGF-1 levels in almost anyone who has taken Caber for Prolactin suppression.

It is difficult to predict what will come out of this. I will at least try. I don't want to depend on Pramipexole for the rest of my life, especially if I don't need it. However, the withdrawal symptoms are not nice.

 

[NFRCR]

MK677 works over 24 hours creating small pulses over that time frame. There is no "optimal release point" to time it for testing like doing a GH serum test. You'll most likely see little to no changes in serum GH levels anyway as it takes a massive 10iu dose of actual exogenous GH to create a noticeable spike. The spikes from MK677 won't produce anything remotely close to that type of reaction. IGF level monitoring is your best bet to see progress.

Berbarine is the only OTC supplement out there that has been studied in human trials and proven to be as effective as Metformin. So everything else is a hit or miss. If you're concerned then just use the Metformin.

FYI, 300 mg daily of Milk Thistle isn't going to affect your IGF levels much if at all. But not using it with Berbarine will definitely make the Berbarine not work as well. Berbarine isn't absorbed very well on it's own.

You could just go with Metformin 1000-1500 mgs daily and real GH at 4-6 ius ED. That would solve your issues.

I will give Berberine a try first. I have in fact tried Metformin. I have a family member who is diabetic. I asked for one blister to try it out for 10 days on 850 mg/day. It definitely worked in terms of blood glucose measurements throughout the day.

 

[fodsod]

I will give Berberine a try first. I have in fact tried Metformin. I have a family member who is diabetic. I asked for one blister to try it out for 10 days on 850 mg/day. It definitely worked in terms of blood glucose measurements throughout the day.

Good luck on it. Keep us posted with blood work and what you see/feel. Your situation is interesting from several angles and I'd like to see how you respond to the additions.