Need feedback on this routine PLEASE

[OnTheRize]

I need some feedback on this upper body hypertrophy routine:

Background
Almost 40. Been training off and on for about 14 years. Spent the last year and a half conditioning myself in the gym after fully recovering from full labrum tear and partial thickness tear in my supraspinatus. I've had herniations in the disks between L1-L2 and L5-S1 from age 20 so no cleans, deadlifts or squat type movements for me except goblet squats etc, which I work into legs throughout the week. Tried to Incorporate bent over barbell/dumbbell rows, heavy shrugs, hip extensions and bulgarian deads into a previous workouts, all reinjured my back so they're all out for now.

Basics
39yrs old, 6'2, 191LBS, 12%BF and I'm off cycle for the next 3 months or so.

This is my current Push/Pull workout for hypertrophy of my upper body (chest has always been my weak point. Dips kill my elbows). Your thoughts?
All feedback is appreciated. Thank you in advance.

MONDAY:
Chest
•Standing Face Pulls/Overhead rope raises 50LBS 3×10
•Wide Grip Push ups 1×10 1×8 1×8
•Flat Bench Press 155LBS 1×9 1×5 145LBS 1×8 1×5 Rest Pause 3 more reps
•Incline Bar Press 110LBS 1×9 1×5 105LBS 1×7 1×6
•Chest Dumbbell Pullovers 70LBS 2×10 65LBS 1×10
•Machine Flys 135LBS 2×10 120LBS 1×10 Drop set burn out to failure at 90LBS

Triceps
•Standing Tricep Pullover 60LBS 1×10 55LBS 2×10
•Tricep Cable Pushdown 80LBS 1×10 1×9 75LBS 1×8
•Dumbbell Skull Crushers 50LBS 2×10 1×8
•Tricep kickbacks 10LBS 2×10 1×12

TUESDAY:
Back
•Cable Lat Pushdown 60LBS 1×10 100LBS 1×10 110LBS 2×10
•Wide Grip Pull Ups 1×10 1×6 1×4
•Vertical Hammer Row (machine) 100LBS 3×10
•Seated Cable Row (tight form) 135/120/105LBS 135LBS 2×10 120LBS 2×10 105LBS 1×Failure
•Chin up 1×10 1×6 1×Failure + eccentric hold at end of last rep

Biceps
•Barbell Cheat Curl (slow eccentric release) 60LBS 1×10 50LBS 1×10
•Supinated Alt Dumbbell curl 20LBS 3×10
•Dumbbell Side Curl 25LBS 1×10 20LBS 2×10
•Hammer D-bell 20LBS 3×10

WEDNESDAY
Shoulders Only
•Overhead Cable Rope Raises 40LBS 2×15
•Barbell Shoulder Press 75LBS 1×10 1×9 55LBS 1×10
•Overhead Dumbell Press 60LBS 2×10 70LBS 1×8
•External Rotator Cable Pull 15LBS 3×10
•Single Arm Lateral Raise
25LBS Cheat raises 1×10
20LBS Controlled raises 1×10
15LBS 1&1/2 rep Raises 1×failure
•Face Pulls 80LBS 2×10 90LBS 1×10
•Reverse Fly Machine (hold at end of each rep) 75LBS 2×10 90LBS 1×10
•Front raise 20LBS 2×10 15LBS 1×10

THURSDAY
Chest
•Face Pulls/Overhead Rope Raises 40LBS 2×10 50LBS 1×10
•Wide Grip Push ups 1×10 1×8 1×8
•Flat Bench Press 135LBS 1×10 155LBS 1×7 145LBS 1×8 1×6
•Decline Bench Press 135LBS 1×10 1×8 1×failure
•Chest Pullovers 70LBS 2×10 65LBS 1×10
•Machine Fly Machine 135/120LBS 135LBS 1×10 1×8 120LBS 1×8 Drop set burn out to failure at 90LBS

Triceps
•Single Dumbbell Skullcrusher 55LBS 1×10 1×10 1×7
•Tricep Cable Pushdown (V-bar) 85LBS 3×10
•Supinated Tricep Cable Pushdown (EZ-bar) 65LBS 1×10 60LBS 2×10
•Tricep kickbacks 10LBS 3×10 or failure

FRIDAY
Back
•Cable Lat Pushdown 50LBS 1×10 100LBS 1×10 110LBS 1×10 120LBS 1×7
•Vertical Hammer Row (machine) 110LBS 1×10 1×9 90LBS 1×10
•Chest Support T-Bar Row 90LBS 2×10 1×6
•High Cable Row (Wide Grip Long Bar) ?LBS ?Sets
•Leaning Lat Cable Pulldown (Supinated Grip) 120LBS 2×10 1×failure Drop set burn out to failure at 95LBS

Biceps
•Standing bar curl 50LBS 3×10
•Incline D-bell curl 20LBS 2×10 1×failure
•One arm preacher curl 20LBS 1×10 1×8 15LBS 1×10
•Pronated D-bell curl 20LBS 2×10 1×failure

As before, feedback is appreciated. Thank you again.

 

[LeoTC]

Seems like a lot of redundant movement, but I have a fairly straightforward training philosophy. I would be a bit concerned with tendonitis becoming an issue though.

I think you'd be better served finding row variations that you're able to do. Not comfortably, but without causing injury.

Being unable to DL/Squat shouldn't preclude leg work all together either.

Have you tried Squat alternatives like the Landmine Hack Squat / Sumo Squat or DB Bulgarian Split Squats?

You can even mimic a Pit Shark with a LM and blocks.

None of these are loaded nearly as heavy as a BB Squat and still provide massive massive benefit.

Also a distinct lack of core work, which I'd personally make a priority given your back issues.

Just my immediate thoughts.

 

[Sworder]

Do whatever exercises give you the best contact, people try to complicate things. Like incline bench press doesn't make your upper chest grow, the muscles don't grow like that.

 

[OnTheRize]

Do whatever exercises give you the best contact, people try to complicate things. Like incline bench press doesn't make your upper chest grow, the muscles don't grow like that.

Agreed, but for example, wouldn't incline engage more anterior delt than flat bench? I can definitely push more on a flat than an incline.
I've always been a hard gainer but I've achieved some significant size over time considering my struggle.
Really trying to balance out my muscle groupings via lifts that target primary muscles and hit secondary muscles fairly lightly throughout the week as others recover.

 

[OnTheRize]

Seems like a lot of redundant movement, but I have a fairly straightforward training philosophy. I would be a bit concerned with tendonitis becoming an issue though.

I think you'd be better served finding row variations that you're able to do. Not comfortably, but without causing injury.

Being unable to DL/Squat shouldn't preclude leg work all together either.

Have you tried Squat alternatives like the Landmine Hack Squat / Sumo Squat or DB Bulgarian Split Squats?

You can even mimic a Pit Shark with a LM and blocks.

None of these are loaded nearly as heavy as a BB Squat and still provide massive massive benefit.

Also a distinct lack of core work, which I'd personally make a priority given your back issues.

Just my immediate thoughts.

Awesome feedback and I appreciate the quick and thorough reply! If you wouldn't mind taking a few minutes and answering a couple questions, I'd be grateful.

In what patterns do you see tendonitis becoming an issue? It has been an issue but what do you believe would be contributing the most? My elbows sometimes kill me on push days so I'm currently taking 2 consecutive deload weeks.

Free weight rows have kept my back in purgatory after reinjuring it a couple months ago so I'm sticking to 2 cable variants in a fixed upper body position at the moment and using a chest supported T-bar row. Can you advise me on any others that do not require me to be standing and bent at the hips? I will reincorporate high boy and bent over B-bell rows once my back is in the clear.

All deads are out indefinitely for me but I do incorporate legs throughout the week. The workout listed is just upper body hypertrophy. With an bum back it's hard to do kinetic chain work but I do Goblet, Bulgarian splits and Landmine Squats throughout the week with other leg exercises.

I really do need more core work thrown into my workout but I'm scratching my head trying to see what could be of use while my back fully recovers from this last injury. My sciatic pain is finally gone and I don't want to encourage it to come back by agitating my lumbar.

Thoughts?

 

[Sworder]

Agreed, but for example, wouldn't incline engage more anterior delt than flat bench? I can definitely push more on a flat than an incline.
I've always been a hard gainer but I've achieved some significant size over time considering my struggle.
Really trying to balance out my muscle groupings via lifts that target primary muscles and hit secondary muscles fairly lightly throughout the week as others recover.

"Wouldn't incline engage more anterior delt than flat?"
Engaging "anterior delt" would lead to more deltoid growth vs flat or what are you trying to get at? Why would you do incline vs flat?

What do you mean you are a hard gainer?

You have too much going on for me buddy. Good luck in the gym, btw a tip for tendinitis swap all barbell exercises to dumbells, any fixed position for both hands is gonna be brutal. Do hammer curls instead of reg.

 

[OnTheRize]

"Wouldn't incline engage more anterior delt than flat?"
Engaging "anterior delt" would lead to more deltoid growth vs flat or what are you trying to get at? Why would you do incline vs flat?

What do you mean you are a hard gainer?

You have too much going on for me buddy. Good luck in the gym, btw a tip for tendinitis swap all barbell exercises to dumbells, any fixed position for both hands is gonna be brutal. Do hammer curls instead of reg.

I swap incline and flat bench out. Incline naturally hits different muscles than flat, hence it can be more difficult. Benching incline activates the front head of the deltoid muscle more than flat bench and gives better secondary contractions to the delts. I only have one shoulder day built into my routine and focus on the middle and rear deltoids on those days because the front deltoid is frequently contracted in many pressing movements anyway.

A "Hard Gainer"
Some guys can pick up a weight and do a few reps a week and they'll blow up like balloons. Others (think naturally skinny skeletal guys) will work their asses off for years to achieve a less than admirable physique. In part it's just the cards we're delt by genetics; i.e. fat parents usually make fat kids. I've had to work my ass off to get a physique that some guys naturally get doing very little. I'm all about the work regardless of the build I naturally have.

Appreciate the suggestion on the tendonitis, though I get more pain from pushing movements like skullcrushers and D-bell presses.

You replied to the initial post so I appreciate the fact that you would try to contribute to helping others on the forum.
There are plenty of people I can't help. Genetically overweight people need to see nutritional specialists and maybe focus on a more specific cardio/HIIT training and I'm not the guy to hand out advice for that kind of stuff. What works for me won't work for them.
A quarterback won't usually ever become a linebacker and vice versa in pro football...just the way it is. I'm not a pro...never have and never will have the genetics to be an IFBB pro or world champion power lifter but I'm looking for advice from someone who know's in depth more about bodybuilding so I can get closer to my personal goal.

 

[Sworder]

I swap incline and flat bench out. Incline naturally hits different muscles than flat, hence it can be more difficult. Benching incline activates the front head of the deltoid muscle more than flat bench and gives better secondary contractions to the delts. I only have one shoulder day built into my routine and focus on the middle and rear deltoids on those days because the front deltoid is frequently contracted in many pressing movements anyway.

If you think you are working different muscles groups while doing incline then you are sorely mistaken. You can't tell the difference between somebody whom does incline and one who doesn't.

A "Hard Gainer"
Some guys can pick up a weight and do a few reps a week and they'll blow up like balloons. Others (think naturally skinny skeletal guys) will work their asses off for years to achieve a less than admirable physique. In part it's just the cards we're delt by genetics; i.e. fat parents usually make fat kids. I've had to work my ass off to get a physique that some guys naturally get doing very little. I'm all about the work regardless of the build I naturally have.

Hardgainer is a really bad term for something that doesn't exist in the way people talk about it. Genetics while talking about body building refers to the following: metabolic rate, sex hormone levels and conversion ratios, and capacity for muscle growth. If you are a "hardgainer" you should be referring to requiring more calories than others. When you say that you have to work your ass off to achieve the same things another person has to. Maybe you grow muscle slower than everybody else however it shouldn't be that large of a difference. More often than not people don't really understand how calories work and they start talking about hard gainers, meso/ecto morphs and all that Bullsh!t.

Appreciate the suggestion on the tendonitis, though I get more pain from pushing movements like skullcrushers and D-bell presses.

I had tendonitis for a while it was a real bitch, I don't know how severe yours is or your experience with tendonitis but I will say that you need to rest the tendons and any pain will grow to stronger and stronger pain

Genetically overweight people need to see nutritional specialists and maybe focus on a more specific cardio/HIIT training and I'm not the guy to hand out advice for that kind of stuff. What works for me won't work for them.

You can't genetically be overweight, weight comes from calories. Every person needs to make a decision to eat more than they are burning and that is how people get fat Every single time. Medications and stuff can lead to an increase in hunger but medications can't pack on fat alone. I think you are confused with some of the excuses the general public gets to justify why they are fat asses.

Bodybuilding rule #1
You will grow muscle if you stimulate growth in the gym and eat more calories than you burn whilst including protein(and AAS.)

This is true for everybody, hardgainer or not. When somebody says hardgainer I just think about somebody that needs to eat more than his neighbor. Obviously we have conflicting views, if you want to continue to discuss them we can. If not, you are entitled to your opinions.

Cheers

 

[Test_Subject]

Honestly, I'd just start with a basic prewritten program. You have a lot going on here and a lot of the movements are redundant.

Rather than doing a million variations for each muscle group, just pick two or so and hit them hard. Doing a million movements necessitates going lighter on each movement and just robs you of gains. For example, if you have enough tricep strength left after hitting two bench variations to do multiple sets of four different tricep exercises, you aren't hitting your bench near hard enough.

 

[LeoTC]

If you think you are working different muscles groups while doing incline then you are sorely mistaken. You can't tell the difference between somebody whom does incline and one who doesn't.


Hardgainer is a really bad term for something that doesn't exist in the way people talk about it. Genetics while talking about body building refers to the following: metabolic rate, sex hormone levels and conversion ratios, and capacity for muscle growth. If you are a "hardgainer" you should be referring to requiring more calories than others. When you say that you have to work your ass off to achieve the same things another person has to. Maybe you grow muscle slower than everybody else however it shouldn't be that large of a difference. More often than not people don't really understand how calories work and they start talking about hard gainers, meso/ecto morphs and all that Bullsh!t.

I had tendonitis for a while it was a real bitch, I don't know how severe yours is or your experience with tendonitis but I will say that you need to rest the tendons and any pain will grow to stronger and stronger pain


You can't genetically be overweight, weight comes from calories. Every person needs to make a decision to eat more than they are burning and that is how people get fat Every single time. Medications and stuff can lead to an increase in hunger but medications can't pack on fat alone. I think you are confused with some of the excuses the general public gets to justify why they are fat asses.

Bodybuilding rule #1
You will grow muscle if you stimulate growth in the gym and eat more calories than you burn whilst including protein(and AAS.)

This is true for everybody, hardgainer or not. When somebody says hardgainer I just think about somebody that needs to eat more than his neighbor. Obviously we have conflicting views, if you want to continue to discuss them we can. If not, you are entitled to your opinions.

Cheers

Nailed it all right here.

 

[LeoTC]

Awesome feedback and I appreciate the quick and thorough reply! If you wouldn't mind taking a few minutes and answering a couple questions, I'd be grateful.

In what patterns do you see tendonitis becoming an issue? It has been an issue but what do you believe would be contributing the most? My elbows sometimes kill me on push days so I'm currently taking 2 consecutive deload weeks.

Free weight rows have kept my back in purgatory after reinjuring it a couple months ago so I'm sticking to 2 cable variants in a fixed upper body position at the moment and using a chest supported T-bar row. Can you advise me on any others that do not require me to be standing and bent at the hips? I will reincorporate high boy and bent over B-bell rows once my back is in the clear.

All deads are out indefinitely for me but I do incorporate legs throughout the week. The workout listed is just upper body hypertrophy. With an bum back it's hard to do kinetic chain work but I do Goblet, Bulgarian splits and Landmine Squats throughout the week with other leg exercises.

I really do need more core work thrown into my workout but I'm scratching my head trying to see what could be of use while my back fully recovers from this last injury. My sciatic pain is finally gone and I don't want to encourage it to come back by agitating my lumbar.

Thoughts?

The redundant biceps and triceps movements will murder your elbows / tendons.

Move more weight on your primary and assistance movements, cut down the accessories and think them through a bit more.

For example...

On Chest / Tri:

W/U: Band Face Pull/Overhead Press

Primary: Flat Bench
Core: Hanging Toe to Bar

W/U: BFP/OHP w/ 10lb DB's

Assistance: CG Bench
Core: Band Step-outs

Acc: Incline DB Press / Incline Cable Fly
Acc: Decline DB Press / Decline Cable Fly

Acc: Incline DB Overhead Ext
Acc: Pronated SB Cable Pulldown

Finisher: Band Pulldown

Focus on intensity with the barbell movements, that's why we do them. You're always going to be able to move more weight.

Cut out the redundant movement patterns and stick with accessories that do the same. Zero reason to do a million different movements at sub-submaximal weight.

 

[OnTheRize]

If you think you are working different muscles groups while doing incline then you are sorely mistaken. You can't tell the difference between somebody whom does incline and one who doesn't.


Hardgainer is a really bad term for something that doesn't exist in the way people talk about it. Genetics while talking about body building refers to the following: metabolic rate, sex hormone levels and conversion ratios, and capacity for muscle growth. If you are a "hardgainer" you should be referring to requiring more calories than others. When you say that you have to work your ass off to achieve the same things another person has to. Maybe you grow muscle slower than everybody else however it shouldn't be that large of a difference. More often than not people don't really understand how calories work and they start talking about hard gainers, meso/ecto morphs and all that Bullsh!t.

I had tendonitis for a while it was a real bitch, I don't know how severe yours is or your experience with tendonitis but I will say that you need to rest the tendons and any pain will grow to stronger and stronger pain


You can't genetically be overweight, weight comes from calories. Every person needs to make a decision to eat more than they are burning and that is how people get fat Every single time. Medications and stuff can lead to an increase in hunger but medications can't pack on fat alone. I think you are confused with some of the excuses the general public gets to justify why they are fat asses.

Bodybuilding rule #1
You will grow muscle if you stimulate growth in the gym and eat more calories than you burn whilst including protein(and AAS.)

This is true for everybody, hardgainer or not. When somebody says hardgainer I just think about somebody that needs to eat more than his neighbor. Obviously we have conflicting views, if you want to continue to discuss them we can. If not, you are entitled to your opinions.

Cheers

Well...I hold a bachelor's in human biology with a focus in genetics, have access through my school to any major academic study concerning medical literature, and I have a particular interest in studying genetic heredity and anomalies in particular.

So there's discussions about how things work in the gym, which I'm open to, would like to discuss, and could learn something from guys like yourself (it's why I'm here)...but then...
Then there's hard science vs bro science concerning actual genetics which I'll produce if you would like to learn something from academic medical jjournalsif you've got a couple hours of reading time. Telling me there are little to no differences in an individuals metabolic heredity, muscular skeletal structure, or predisposition to nutrient and stimulus response genetically is like you telling me a 5'1 man would be 7'3 if he just tried harder when he was younger.
You can take a man with a genetically superior metabolic rate, sex hormone levels and conversion ratios; put him on a densely nutritional caloric surplus with abundant protein consumption; give him any workout program in the world + any AAS stack you can dream up and he'll never surpass the average man in strength if he has more than 3 alterations at the q23-28 locus of chromosome 17. Now there are 35 variations of this single example with the most severe causing Pompe disease.
...and "yes" you can be genetically fat without a lot of unique gene sequences anomalies. It's not responsible for a "fat" Western civilization but about 1.3% of Caucasians will never achieve less than 25% body fat regardless of their nutritional intake, least they starve themselves of essential nutrients.

Now I'd no more take you to the mat on thos with hard science concerning genetic potentials with human physiology than I would get into an argument with 5th generation Virginia tobacco grower who swears smoking is safe.
I can tell this man about telomeres, mitochondrial dysfunction, neurotransporter functions, acetylcholine, tobacco's relationship to nightshade molecules like scopolamine and atropine, how semi metallic salts bind with known poisons like arsenic during tobacco's curing process...but it wouldn't change a thing for this type of man because he has a dog in the fight, he has his ego, and he's going to have his opinion...and he's entitled to it. Who am I to come along and snatch away the beliefs he's held onto for fear of being wrong?
Why would I bother to produce medical literature from well established journals? To get in a pissing contest with a gentleman That man doesn't want to learn anything...his ego is titanium and his mind is made up.
...on the other hand, if he wasn't afraid to have his beliefs challenged, I could educate him...but what are the odds he could be misinformed with all the attributes he truly does have? The man is hard working and knows how to work the land with knowledge and experience I couldn't possibly begin to imagine. He knows something I don't but he clearly believes that smoking is completely safe. He may be a very intelligent and wealthy man but he's ill informed.

Yes, people use genetics as a cop out for not getting in shape often and to bad for them, but genetics has a lot more to do with bodybuilding than you give it credit for.
Brother, you and I could never be and will never be Yates or Colman no matter what we eat, what AAS stack we take, or how hard we train...and we both know it. We could leave it at that or if you got a lot of time to read I could pound you with medical literature that you'll probably never read.
The vast majority of our strength curves are not suffering from genetic extremes like Tarui disease or benefitting from conditions like acromegaly but genetic components have a lot more to do with what we can individually achieve as our upper limits.

Genetically disadvantaged people might blame it and cry "I can't because...people that are ripped have no life and are egotistical". Genetically gifted people might dismiss it and claim "naw bruhv, that shits all me!...Fat asses could learn from me bruh. 24/7 365 I f***k b****es year round!"
Both these claims are bullshit...no one f***k b****es year round

Really though...how come your incline presses don't match you flat bench Same thing right?

 

[johntt44]

Well...I hold a bachelor's in human biology with a focus in genetics, have access through my school to any major academic study concerning medical literature, and I have a particular interest in studying genetic heredity and anomalies in particular.

So there's discussions about how things work in the gym, which I'm open to, would like to discuss, and could learn something from guys like yourself (it's why I'm here)...but then...
Then there's hard science vs bro science concerning actual genetics which I'll produce if you would like to learn something from academic medical jjournalsif you've got a couple hours of reading time. Telling me there are little to no differences in an individuals metabolic heredity, muscular skeletal structure, or predisposition to nutrient and stimulus response genetically is like you telling me a 5'1 man would be 7'3 if he just tried harder when he was younger.
You can take a man with a genetically superior metabolic rate, sex hormone levels and conversion ratios; put him on a densely nutritional caloric surplus with abundant protein consumption; give him any workout program in the world + any AAS stack you can dream up and he'll never surpass the average man in strength if he has more than 3 alterations at the q23-28 locus of chromosome 17. Now there are 35 variations of this single example with the most severe causing Pompe disease.
...and "yes" you can be genetically fat without a lot of unique gene sequences anomalies. It's not responsible for a "fat" Western civilization but about 1.3% of Caucasians will never achieve less than 25% body fat regardless of their nutritional intake, least they starve themselves of essential nutrients.

Now I'd no more take you to the mat on thos with hard science concerning genetic potentials with human physiology than I would get into an argument with 5th generation Virginia tobacco grower who swears smoking is safe.
I can tell this man about telomeres, mitochondrial dysfunction, neurotransporter functions, acetylcholine, tobacco's relationship to nightshade molecules like scopolamine and atropine, how semi metallic salts bind with known poisons like arsenic during tobacco's curing process...but it wouldn't change a thing for this type of man because he has a dog in the fight, he has his ego, and he's going to have his opinion...and he's entitled to it. Who am I to come along and snatch away the beliefs he's held onto for fear of being wrong?
Why would I bother to produce medical literature from well established journals? To get in a pissing contest with a gentleman That man doesn't want to learn anything...his ego is titanium and his mind is made up.
...on the other hand, if he wasn't afraid to have his beliefs challenged, I could educate him...but what are the odds he could be misinformed with all the attributes he truly does have? The man is hard working and knows how to work the land with knowledge and experience I couldn't possibly begin to imagine. He knows something I don't but he clearly believes that smoking is completely safe. He may be a very intelligent and wealthy man but he's ill informed.

Yes, people use genetics as a cop out for not getting in shape often and to bad for them, but genetics has a lot more to do with bodybuilding than you give it credit for.
Brother, you and I could never be and will never be Yates or Colman no matter what we eat, what AAS stack we take, or how hard we train...and we both know it. We could leave it at that or if you got a lot of time to read I could pound you with medical literature that you'll probably never read.
The vast majority of our strength curves are not suffering from genetic extremes like Tarui disease or benefitting from conditions like acromegaly but genetic components have a lot more to do with what we can individually achieve as our upper limits.

Genetically disadvantaged people might blame it and cry "I can't because...people that are ripped have no life and are egotistical". Genetically gifted people might dismiss it and claim "naw bruhv, that shits all me!...Fat asses could learn from me bruh. 24/7 365 I f***k b****es year round!"
Both these claims are bullshit...no one f***k b****es year round

Really though...how come your incline presses don't match you flat bench Same thing right?

Incline is harder for most people because of the different leversges and longer ROM. When you flat bench with heavy weight you recruit all your muscle fibers including your upper pecs. Many people have built a great chest with just flat bench. I dont shoulder press any more really. I just do 2-3 fatigued sets after my laterals,upright rows. All the chest pressing and rowing exercises already tax my shoulders enough.

 

[johntt44]

I need some feedback on this upper body hypertrophy routine:

Background
Almost 40. Been training off and on for about 14 years. Spent the last year and a half conditioning myself in the gym after fully recovering from full labrum tear and partial thickness tear in my supraspinatus. I've had herniations in the disks between L1-L2 and L5-S1 from age 20 so no cleans, deadlifts or squat type movements for me except goblet squats etc, which I work into legs throughout the week. Tried to Incorporate bent over barbell/dumbbell rows, heavy shrugs, hip extensions and bulgarian deads into a previous workouts, all reinjured my back so they're all out for now.

Basics
39yrs old, 6'2, 191LBS, 12%BF and I'm off cycle for the next 3 months or so.

This is my current Push/Pull workout for hypertrophy of my upper body (chest has always been my weak point. Dips kill my elbows). Your thoughts?
All feedback is appreciated. Thank you in advance.

MONDAY:
Chest
•Standing Face Pulls/Overhead rope raises 50LBS 3×10
•Wide Grip Push ups 1×10 1×8 1×8
•Flat Bench Press 155LBS 1×9 1×5 145LBS 1×8 1×5 Rest Pause 3 more reps
•Incline Bar Press 110LBS 1×9 1×5 105LBS 1×7 1×6
•Chest Dumbbell Pullovers 70LBS 2×10 65LBS 1×10
•Machine Flys 135LBS 2×10 120LBS 1×10 Drop set burn out to failure at 90LBS

Triceps
•Standing Tricep Pullover 60LBS 1×10 55LBS 2×10
•Tricep Cable Pushdown 80LBS 1×10 1×9 75LBS 1×8
•Dumbbell Skull Crushers 50LBS 2×10 1×8
•Tricep kickbacks 10LBS 2×10 1×12

TUESDAY:
Back
•Cable Lat Pushdown 60LBS 1×10 100LBS 1×10 110LBS 2×10
•Wide Grip Pull Ups 1×10 1×6 1×4
•Vertical Hammer Row (machine) 100LBS 3×10
•Seated Cable Row (tight form) 135/120/105LBS 135LBS 2×10 120LBS 2×10 105LBS 1×Failure
•Chin up 1×10 1×6 1×Failure + eccentric hold at end of last rep

Biceps
•Barbell Cheat Curl (slow eccentric release) 60LBS 1×10 50LBS 1×10
•Supinated Alt Dumbbell curl 20LBS 3×10
•Dumbbell Side Curl 25LBS 1×10 20LBS 2×10
•Hammer D-bell 20LBS 3×10

WEDNESDAY
Shoulders Only
•Overhead Cable Rope Raises 40LBS 2×15
•Barbell Shoulder Press 75LBS 1×10 1×9 55LBS 1×10
•Overhead Dumbell Press 60LBS 2×10 70LBS 1×8
•External Rotator Cable Pull 15LBS 3×10
•Single Arm Lateral Raise
25LBS Cheat raises 1×10
20LBS Controlled raises 1×10
15LBS 1&1/2 rep Raises 1×failure
•Face Pulls 80LBS 2×10 90LBS 1×10
•Reverse Fly Machine (hold at end of each rep) 75LBS 2×10 90LBS 1×10
•Front raise 20LBS 2×10 15LBS 1×10

THURSDAY
Chest
•Face Pulls/Overhead Rope Raises 40LBS 2×10 50LBS 1×10
•Wide Grip Push ups 1×10 1×8 1×8
•Flat Bench Press 135LBS 1×10 155LBS 1×7 145LBS 1×8 1×6
•Decline Bench Press 135LBS 1×10 1×8 1×failure
•Chest Pullovers 70LBS 2×10 65LBS 1×10
•Machine Fly Machine 135/120LBS 135LBS 1×10 1×8 120LBS 1×8 Drop set burn out to failure at 90LBS

Triceps
•Single Dumbbell Skullcrusher 55LBS 1×10 1×10 1×7
•Tricep Cable Pushdown (V-bar) 85LBS 3×10
•Supinated Tricep Cable Pushdown (EZ-bar) 65LBS 1×10 60LBS 2×10
•Tricep kickbacks 10LBS 3×10 or failure

FRIDAY
Back
•Cable Lat Pushdown 50LBS 1×10 100LBS 1×10 110LBS 1×10 120LBS 1×7
•Vertical Hammer Row (machine) 110LBS 1×10 1×9 90LBS 1×10
•Chest Support T-Bar Row 90LBS 2×10 1×6
•High Cable Row (Wide Grip Long Bar) ?LBS ?Sets
•Leaning Lat Cable Pulldown (Supinated Grip) 120LBS 2×10 1×failure Drop set burn out to failure at 95LBS

Biceps
•Standing bar curl 50LBS 3×10
•Incline D-bell curl 20LBS 2×10 1×failure
•One arm preacher curl 20LBS 1×10 1×8 15LBS 1×10
•Pronated D-bell curl 20LBS 2×10 1×failure

As before, feedback is appreciated. Thank you again.

That's a lot of volume! Especially for someone off cycle. 35 sets for chest a week? 15-20 would serve you much better.

 

[Sworder]

Well...I hold a bachelor's in human biology with a focus in genetics, have access through my school to any major academic study concerning medical literature, and I have a particular interest in studying genetic heredity and anomalies in particular.

You have a bachelor's in human biology? That's great! I am not here for a pissing contest, I am here to learn and help others learn. I would like to hear your argument for "fat genetics." What are you saying that is based on? Are you claiming that a person can get obese via something that is not based off calories?

Telling me there are little to no differences in an individuals metabolic heredity, muscular skeletal structure, or predisposition to nutrient and stimulus response genetically is like you telling me a 5'1 man would be 7'3 if he just tried harder when he was younger.

You must have misunderstood what I said. You were making an argument stating you were a hard gainer and that you could work your ass off and get a fraction of the results of somebody else. I am saying that it is probably something basic in your diet/training/PEDs that is different and not some "hard gainer" genetic.

...and "yes" you can be genetically fat without a lot of unique gene sequences anomalies. It's not responsible for a "fat" Western civilization but about 1.3% of Caucasians will never achieve less than 25% body fat regardless of their nutritional intake, least they starve themselves of essential nutrients.

We disagree here, any human will lose BF with a calorie deficit. You are stating that 1.3% of Caucasians can't stay under 25% BF?? Where did you pull that number from? Also, do you remember learning about WW2? The jews... They didn't get food and I have seen some pics, they were less than 25% BF. Sorry for the tasteless example but it proves a point.

I can tell this man about telomeres, mitochondrial dysfunction, neurotransporter functions, acetylcholine, tobacco's relationship to nightshade molecules like scopolamine and atropine, how semi metallic salts bind with known poisons like arsenic during tobacco's curing process...but it wouldn't change a thing for this type of man because he has a dog in the fight, he has his ego, and he's going to have his opinion...and he's entitled to it. Who am I to come along and snatch away the beliefs he's held onto for fear of being wrong?
Why would I bother to produce medical literature from well established journals? To get in a pissing contest with a gentleman That man doesn't want to learn anything...his ego is titanium and his mind is made up.

When people start writing like this....

Really though...how come your incline presses don't match you flat bench Same thing right?

How come incline presses don't match you flat bench? What are you talking about? I said that incline presses hit the same muscle groups as flat bench does. And I said that there is no growth specific to incline that you won't get from flat or decline bench press. I didn't say anything about strength in those exercises.

Have a good day, if you want to discuss something I am all for a respectful debate. Be more clear if you do want to chat tho, you are all over the place.

 

[OnTheRize]

Incline is harder for most people because of the different leversges and longer ROM. When you flat bench with heavy weight you recruit all your muscle fibers including your upper pecs. Many people have built a great chest with just flat bench. I dont shoulder press any more really. I just do 2-3 fatigued sets after my laterals,upright rows. All the chest pressing and rowing exercises already tax my shoulders enough.

That's the straight up reply I was looking for brother. Thank you!

 

[OnTheRize]

I would like to hear your argument for "fat genetics." What are you saying that is based on? Are you claiming that a person can get obese via something that is not based off calories?

Yup, there are people who genetically have extremely low and extremely high metabolisms. 2 personal examples:
My father stayed under 10% body fat his whole life, ate a shit ton of awful food that whole time, and didn't really ever do much physically except when tried bodybuilding for about 8 years. My dad could never stack any real mass but then again he ate like shit, but drank weight gainer and protein shakes 2 to 3 times a day. My dad idolized Arnold during that time and bought into the idea that GNC was selling while dedicating 6 days a week to the gym...he got bigger while bodybuilding but he realized he'd never be the hulking mass his natural gym buddies ever became during that time. Regardless of what that poor man did before, during, or after the gym he couldn't pinch more than a quarter inch of fat anywhere on his body.
When I was a kid I left home in Los Angeles at 17 and lived on the street for about 2-1/2 years with a rotating group of about 10 other street kids. I knew a couple of them from my high school for "bad kids". One of these guys was a fat ass his whole life...one of his parents was fat, sister was fat, brother was fat and most his relatives were fat. Dude was super cool but he was just...fat. So being homeless with him for about a year and a half on the streets I noticed this poor guy stayed fat no matter what. The guy lost weight for sure but he just went from being obese to being fat. The rest of us were all in great shape BF wise. We all ate what we could when we could so diet was pretty much the same give or take a $1 burger here or there, we all walked over 10 miles a day, and we all smoked. This kid stayed fat no matter what. When we spared enough change or got hooked up on meals we used to tease him that "we" needed food and "he" could live off his reserves. This kids physical condition never made sense till I got older.

These are 2 examples to randomly throw out there but if you really are interested in the science behind this stuff, it's fascinating (albeit a bit long and boring), I'll PM you some relatively uncomplicated brief medical literature or recommend some academic books you can find cheap and used on any Amazon if you really want to know more about genetics and their relationship to metabolism, body composition, etc.
Honestly most of us are not on the extremes of metabolism genetically but rest closer to one end or the other. It's a numbers game. Approximately 1% lie here on the spectrum 5% lie there, 30% and so on. My father and my friend didn't have genetic disorders, they just happened to be outliers on the spectrum, but not the most extreme outliers by any means.

You must have misunderstood what I said. You were making an argument stating you were a hard gainer and that you could work your ass off and get a fraction of the results of somebody else. I am saying that it is probably something basic in your diet/training/PEDs that is different and not some "hard gainer" genetic

I may have misunderstood you, yes. I need to dial in my training program and look carefully at my upcoming cycle. I do maintain my position on the concept that genetic factors indeed play a role in body composition potential.

On a side note, In academia there is still what I believe to be an absolutely ridiculous hypothesis that "spot fat" reduction is actually a possibility. I see 2 women at my gym with enormous asses, but an otherwise good good overall slim build, wearing tights and doing glute only exercises in the "hopes" that this wil...in some magical way...burn the fat off their asses and not evenly across their entire bodies. Spot fat reduction is just in my opinion, a myth. Vast swaths of medical studies and real professional sports fitness trainers rail against the idea that we can target and localize fat burning to an isolated part of the body effectively. Only a handful of the 100+ academically published studies support "spot fat reduction"
You know those rare women who have almost completely normal builds but carry huge stores of fat tissue in their glutes? That's genetic...dunno what sets of genes cause that particular issue...buuut iiit's genetic...and no amount of glute exercise is going to shrink their glutes to the proportions of the rest of their bodies without killing off the fat stores anywhere else as well. That ass will be the last bit of fat tissue to go in their fat stores if they can loose it.

You are stating that 1.3% of Caucasians can't stay under 25% BF?? Where did you pull that number from? Also, do you remember learning about WW2? The jews... They didn't get food and I have seen some pics, they were less than 25% BF. Sorry for the tasteless example but it proves a point.

The 1.3% was statistic found in a metadata analysis of control studies for genetic obesity and the effectiveness of weight loss through physical exertion.

To be fair it was based off of studies done in the US only and compiled from over 30 independent medical university trials published in academia for obese Americans who were thought to be metabolically resistant to weight loss from various proven training methodologies.
I remembered the percentage because it applied to white Male groups with a mean age of 40 years old.
The studies were mostly divided into weight, diet, sex, race, geography and other. It's hard to gauge different ethnicities when, for example, approximately only 12% of Americans are African Americans and not all of the compiled academic papers in the analysis accounted for an even number of each predominant minority from the studies respective locations.
The aim of the studies were to expose randomly overweight (by American medical standards) subjects to the same diets and excercise routines in controlled settings and analyze the data. The data was then compared to the same or other studies using other control groups of "healthy" individuals to see what the effectiveness was across various metabolic values. One of the key values was the outcome of the meta analysis resulting in approximately 1.3% of caucasian males (the most significant sex and race in the US) across weight groups in healthy and unhealthy categorized subjects were unable to maintain a BF% of under a mean average of 25% with the conditions of a caloric deficit and standardized rigorous mechanical weight loss programs in place.

As far as WW2 goes no scientific study is required to assert the idea that if any given population if denied even meager amounts of nutrients and/or exposed to extreme physical exertion, will suffer massive health consequences and eventually succumb to death by starvation regardless of their genetic composition.
In other words, absolute starvation in a group of people held with the intention of sacrifice will all lose weight with 100% surety. Furthermore there is a 100% mortality rate under the given conditions for an extended enough period of time, no arguing that.

When people start writing like this....

Point taken.

How come incline presses don't match you flat bench? What are you talking about? I said that incline presses hit the same muscle groups as flat bench does. And I said that there is no growth specific to incline that you won't get from flat or decline bench press. I didn't say anything about strength in those exercises.

You're correct, I mistook what you were saying there. In your opinion do you believe that incline presses do not strengthen the connective and supporting muscle groups that are required to perform the movement? Wouldn't this support the idea that while flat benching targets chest in a specific manner, Incline pressing targets secondary and tertiary muscle groups specific to the press?

@johntt44 has convinced me to kill the incline press in my program with the amount of volume I'm putting on my chest but I'm wondering if that movement doesn't have a good purpose in other programs.