New protocol from doctor...need thoughts

CubbieBlue

New Member
10+ Year Member
Ok so I am a 23 year old guy who has had a ton of anxiety, fatigue, brain fog for the past 3 years. Blood tests showed low T, subclinical hypothyroidism, with nodules. After some bad docs I have a new primary care physician who while not really knowledgable about HRT, he receives HRT from an anti-aging doc in the area who is! He refers me to him.

This guy looks at my tests and suggests:
An MRI to see if I have any pituitary issues...we have it scheduled for this coming Wednesday.

Also has me doing an salivary test for my cortisol, which will take a few weeks to get the results back.

In the meantime wants to start treatment with:

Says t3/t4 ratio is screwed up, switches me from synthroid to armour. Having trouble tolerating the armour dose right now, however, so I need to touch base with him on that.

Says estradiol is slightly high, puts me on .5 mg of arimidex M/W/F

Says you can do either test or HcG, but recommends HcG for fertility. I agree.
Has me on 2,000 IU's of HcG self injected SubQ 2 x per week.

I am 3 days in and feel pretty crappy, due to the overdose of armour me thinks. Otherwise I am optomistic but a little scared.

What does everyone think with this regimen?

Thanks everyone.
 
There are so many absurd and ridiculous treatments mentioned in your post. I really do not know where to begin. For starters, I can almost guarantee you do not need an MRI. This is the most common and at times devastating mistake of physicians. Are you having visual problems? severe headaches? elevated prolactin?

What are your labs? For brevity, LH, FSH, Prolactin, T (total), E2, and TSH.

Is fertility a concern? Are you infertile?

In my opinion, you are being mistreated (possibly more).
 
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There are so many absurd and ridiculous treatments mentioned in your post. I really do not know where to begin. For starters, I can almost guarantee you do not need an MRI. This is the most common and at times devastating mistake of physicians. Are you having visual problems? severe headaches? elevated prolactin?

What are your labs? For brevity, LH, FSH, Prolactin, T (total), E2, and TSH.

Is fertility a concern? Are you infertile?

In my opinion, you are being mistreated (possibly more).

Why would an MRI be devastating?

No visual problems, and a normal prolactin. Both him and my PCP agree a normal prolactin w/ my below normal FSH cannot rule out an adenoma or anything similar.

I do not have my labs handy but normal LH, Low FSH (1.1), T Total around 300, e2 at 25.

Here are my labs on 75 mcg of Synthroid.
TSH: 1.06 (.04-4.0)
Total T4: 9.84 (4.5 - 12.5 ug/dl)
Free T4: 1.99 (.9-1.9 ng/dl)
Free T3. 3.04 ( 1.5-4.1 pg/ml)
TPO Ab <10.0 (<35 IU/mi)
IGF I 302 ng/ml (116-358)

Without any synthroid my TSH is anywhere from 3.00 to 5.00, but my endo was originally subscribing the synthroid for control of my thyroid nodules. However, with the synthroid my fatigue dimished, and my freezing cold hands and feet warmed up substantially. I am negative for auto-immune thyroid antibodies.

At this point I must agree with the hypopituitary hypothesis that they seem to be pursuing.

Fertility is not an issue now, but I don't want to be infertile, as I don't have any kids yet and one day may want some.

Please elaborate with your point, I am very interested in hearing what you have to say.
 
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Are they going to do a needle biopsy on the thyroid nodules? They wont affect the function but sometimes are cancer. Mine were and I needed a complete thyroidectomy. Also how much armour did he start you with? I was on synthroid only as well but the Dr reduced it and added Cytomel. The Cytomel has been an adjustment due to over stimulation and a raise in blod pressure for a few days after upping the dose. What side effects are you having from the Armour?
 
I have not had a biopsy. It is a multi-nodular goiter, very small. I asked my original endo about a biopsy and he said no need. Perhaps I will ask my new PCP what he thinks.

Yeah, same side effects. Over stimulation. I took less today and the side effects were less severe.
 
Ok so I am a 23 year old guy who has had a ton of anxiety, fatigue, brain fog for the past 3 years. Blood tests showed low T, subclinical hypothyroidism, with nodules. After some bad docs I have a new primary care physician who while not really knowledgable about HRT, he receives HRT from an anti-aging doc in the area who is! He refers me to him.

This guy looks at my tests and suggests:
An MRI to see if I have any pituitary issues...we have it scheduled for this coming Wednesday.

Also has me doing an salivary test for my cortisol, which will take a few weeks to get the results back.

In the meantime wants to start treatment with:

Says t3/t4 ratio is screwed up, switches me from synthroid to armour. Having trouble tolerating the armour dose right now, however, so I need to touch base with him on that.

Says estradiol is slightly high, puts me on .5 mg of arimidex M/W/F

Says you can do either test or HcG, but recommends HcG for fertility. I agree.
Has me on 2,000 IU's of HcG self injected SubQ 2 x per week.

I am 3 days in and feel pretty crappy, due to the overdose of armour me thinks. Otherwise I am optomistic but a little scared.

What does everyone think with this regimen?

Thanks everyone.
Most likely the armour is putting stress to your adenals which causing you to crash.
23 years old does not use hcg first off the bad but rather clomid to see if you are primary or secondary.
Your Dr is not trained properly in HRt and is putting you into a dangerous position IMO
IF you are in the northeast of the USA please feel free to contact me to make an appointment to get proper care because this guy has not a clue of what he is doing.

first of all Anti aging clinic should be a red flag to begin with and run as fast as you can.
 
I'll tell you whats devastating.... It would be devastating if BC/BS knew any more than they already do and realized he is just getting another unit over to the hospital to make his quota for kickback:eek:. [:o)] And we wonder why medical costs are so high....;)

Seriously, Seems to me he is just being cautious that there are no physical brain abnormalities considering there are already some found on the thryroid. Or is he simply looking at the thyroid to determine the extent of physical abnormality with growths already evident in physical exam? Is he scanning both?

On your current protocol. Can someone please tell me what is wrong with the numbers? I would like to understand the thyroid better... Regarding that protocol. How long have you been on it? If it does have your numbers in line, has it been long enough to expect a change in T hopefully resulting?

Also, normal LH and Low FSH??? Shouldn't you be on HMG and not HCG. Perhaps he is waiting to see how one thing stimulates another in treatment sequence?...?



Why would an MRI be devastating?

No visual problems, and a normal prolactin. Both him and my PCP agree a normal prolactin w/ my below normal FSH cannot rule out an adenoma or anything similar.

I do not have my labs handy but normal LH, Low FSH (1.1), T Total around 300, e2 at 25.

Here are my labs on 75 mcg of Synthroid.
TSH: 1.06 (.04-4.0)
Total T4: 9.84 (4.5 - 12.5 ug/dl)
Free T4: 1.99 (.9-1.9 ng/dl)
Free T3. 3.04 ( 1.5-4.1 pg/ml)
TPO Ab <10.0 (<35 IU/mi)
IGF I 302 ng/ml (116-358)

Without any synthroid my TSH is anywhere from 3.00 to 5.00, but my endo was originally subscribing the synthroid for control of my thyroid nodules. However, with the synthroid my fatigue dimished, and my freezing cold hands and feet warmed up substantially. I am negative for auto-immune thyroid antibodies.

At this point I must agree with the hypopituitary hypothesis that they seem to be pursuing.

Fertility is not an issue now, but I don't want to be infertile, as I don't have any kids yet and one day may want some.

Please elaborate with your point, I am very interested in hearing what you have to say.
 
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Why would an MRI be devastating?

No visual problems, and a normal prolactin. Both him and my PCP agree a normal prolactin w/ my below normal FSH cannot rule out an adenoma or anything similar.

I do not have my labs handy but normal LH, Low FSH (1.1), T Total around 300, e2 at 25.

Here are my labs on 75 mcg of Synthroid.
TSH: 1.06 (.04-4.0)
Total T4: 9.84 (4.5 - 12.5 ug/dl)
Free T4: 1.99 (.9-1.9 ng/dl)
Free T3. 3.04 ( 1.5-4.1 pg/ml)
TPO Ab <10.0 (<35 IU/mi)
IGF I 302 ng/ml (116-358)

Without any synthroid my TSH is anywhere from 3.00 to 5.00, but my endo was originally subscribing the synthroid for control of my thyroid nodules. However, with the synthroid my fatigue dimished, and my freezing cold hands and feet warmed up substantially. I am negative for auto-immune thyroid antibodies.

At this point I must agree with the hypopituitary hypothesis that they seem to be pursuing.

Fertility is not an issue now, but I don't want to be infertile, as I don't have any kids yet and one day may want some.

Please elaborate with your point, I am very interested in hearing what you have to say.

TSH is still too high on thyroid meds ..means that your adrenals are over worked and most likely your rt3 are being elevated as well especailly from t4 only meds.
 
Well it is not really an "anti-aging" clinic. More of an HRT clinic. Dude sees a lot of men and women with similar problems.

He IS treating with the arimidex as well btw.

Why do you think this treatment would be dangerous HAN?
 
Also, it seemed like this treatment plan was short term, to see how I reacted to it. I see him again New Years Day.

He is going to call me back later today. What types of questions should I ask him?
 
MRI & Hypogonadism

Is there a danger to having a MRI to rule out a pituitary tumour when found to have hypogonadotropic hypogonadism? Would you like to have unnecessary brain surgery or put on a drug for no reason? In almost every clinical situation, there is absolutely no need for a MRI. The indication for a MRI is clear. In hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, a MRI is performed only under the clinical context where there are central mass symptoms (visual disturbance, headaches, etc.) and an elevated prolactin.

The frequency of pituitary tumors in the general population and hypogonadotropic hypogonadism is the same. Confirmation and corroboration of this fact is in a study of hypogonadal men with impotence and a variety of endocrine patterns investigating the usefulness of MRI of the brain. The conclusion stated, "Magnetic resonant imaging or computed tomography imaging was available and reviewed in all patients with secondary [hypogonadotropic] hypogonadism. Ten [percent] of these patients had hypothalamic-pituitary imaging abnormalities. The prevalence of pituitary tumors within our population was not significantly elevated compared to the previous general population studies.” Significantly, none of the men with low LH with low TT or FT (hypogonadotropic hypogonadism) had an adenoma or pituitary/hypothalamic mass. [EL Rhoden et al., The value of pituitary magnetic resonance imaging in men with hypogonadism, 170 J Urol 795 (2003).] Therefore, a factor other than hypogonadotropic hypogonadism is necessary to discern a population at risk for hypothalamic-pituitary mass lesions.

Magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) of the hypothalamic-pituitary region did not show any tumors in patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism in the study by S. Bajaj et al., Magnetic Resonance Imaging of the Brain in Idiopathic Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism, Clinical Radiology (1993) 48, 122-124.

The study by Citron, J.T., Ettinger, B., Rubinoff, H., Ettinger, V.M., Minkoff, J., Hom, F., et al. (1996). Prevalence of hypothalamic-pituitary imaging abnormalities in impotent men with secondary hypogonadism. J Urol, 155(2), 529-533 states, “extensive evaluation of all men with secondary hypogonadism is unwarranted because the yield of hypothalamic or pituitary imaging abnormalities identified by this precaution (MRI) is low.”

Multiple, peer-reviewed studies showing there is no diagnostic benefit or need to perform magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) studies to check for a pituitary tumor with an abnormal low testosterone coupled with a low or normal LH, hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, absent any central mass effects with a normal prolactin. Similarly, published medical literature has shown that the use of hypothalamic-pituitary imaging in the evaluation of impotence in elderly men, in the absence of clinical characteristics of other hormonal loss or sella compression symptoms is unnecessary. The standard of care is not to perform an MRI in hypogonadotropic hypogonadism absent central mass symptoms or an elevated prolactin level.

The majority of patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism secondary to tumors have multiple pituitary hormone deficiencies in addition to gonadotropin deficiency. In adults, prolactin-secreting pituitary tumors are the most common tumors causing hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. In a study of 656 patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism an MRI was performed to screen for hypothalamic pituitary pathology only in patients (Total=18) with an elevated prolactin. The male individuals with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism with a normal prolactin did not undergo magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) studies to check for tumors or other pathology. [AT Guay AT et al., Characterization of Patients in a Medical Endocrine-Based Center for Male Sexual Dysfunction, 5 Endocr Pract 314 (1999).]

For a test to be appropriate, it must discriminate between a normal individual and a diseased individual. A diagnostic test must demonstrate the test is accurate at identifying the disease in affected patients from those in normal individuals. The test should not subject the patient to additional risk of harm; and medical literature should support use of the test if less invasive or expensive tests are not able to provide the physician with the same diagnostic information. This is an absolute for a test to be diagnostic and of any therapeutic value. Otherwise, unnecessary testing or treatments, including surgery, will occur in individuals with pathology of no import to their health.

Diagnostic test is a test used in the clinical environment on individuals with clinical signs or other clinical information consistent with the presence of the condition. The presence of disease has been recognized and the disease of interest is one of the differential diagnoses. This fact raises the expected prevalence (the clinician's estimate of the probability that the individual has the disease based on what the clinician knows to that point) prior to performing the test and thus changes the test performance considerably compared to the situation when the same test is used as a screening test (the probability that a randomly selected individual has the disease is the prevalence of the disease in that population). Affected individuals are more likely to have more prominent disease manifestations in the clinical setting, meaning that the spectrum of disease is generally more severe for in a diagnostic than in a screening setting.

The cascade effect is a process that proceeds in a stepwise fashion from an initiating event to a seemingly inevitable conclusion. With regard to medical technology, the term refers to a chain of events initiated by an unnecessary test, an unexpected result, or patient or physician anxiety, which results in an ill-advised tests or treatments that may cause avoidable adverse effects and/or morbidity. Common triggers of the cascade effect include failing to understand the likelihood of false-positive results, errors in data interpretation, overestimating benefits or underestimating risks, and low tolerance of ambiguity.

Examples of the cascade effect include discovery of endocrine incidentalomas on the head and body. Published medical literature states, "n patients with an incidental asymptomatic pituitary microadenoma, a single PRL test may be the most cost-effective management strategy" that determines further medical care. [JT King et al., Management of incidental pituitary microadenomas: a cost-effectiveness analysis, 82 J Clin Endocrinol Metab 3625 (1997).]
 
Re: MRI & Hypogonadism

Understood your point about the cascade effect. I am going to go ahead and do the MRI, with an eye on false positives and whatnot. I am hoping it will relieve some anxiety towards the issue.

I was interested however in your views on armour.
 
A few quick comments: Too many posts speak about manipulating / treating hormones as if this was an easy and simple task. It is not. A good rule of thumb is do not mess with good numbers. Also, I won't get into it here, but some of these issues are overhyped with no real scientific literature for support, particularly adrenal. That should get some going.

regarding the armour thyroid use, I am against its use. I went full circle on treatment of hypothyroidism. I used armour and T4/T3 until finally coming back to T4 period. I am familiar with all of the literature on these topics. Again, there is a dearth of good studies and really none to demonstrate confidence.

If you were doing well on synthroid, why change? This should have raised a red flag. A caveat - be sure to obtain the T4 (synthroid) from the exact same manufacturer each time. Any change can result in significant issues. One of the problems of armour thyroid is the drug is inconsistent in the ratio of T4;T3 for each batch. Also, the FDA has recalled this drug many times for this reason. But, going back, if it worked well, there is no cause for change.
 
From your prior post: "No visual problems, and a normal prolactin. Both him and my PCP agree a normal prolactin w/ my below normal FSH cannot rule out an adenoma or anything similar."

They are wrong! They do not know what they are doing! I can guarantee that if you challenge them to supply literature support, they won't. I do not recommend this course since most docs are ego challenged.

Here is a critical question: If the MRI did show an adenoma, what would they do????? Have you thought of that? This is dangerous since your docs are fools. But, hey it is your brain, not mine. Hopefully the MRI is negative (10% of all people have adenomas). And if positive, hopefully, they do nothing in which case why do the freaking MRI.
 
Ok so I am a 23 year old guy who has had a ton of anxiety, fatigue, brain fog for the past 3 years. Blood tests showed low T, subclinical hypothyroidism, with nodules. After some bad docs I have a new primary care physician who while not really knowledgable about HRT, he receives HRT from an anti-aging doc in the area who is! He refers me to him.

This guy looks at my tests and suggests:
An MRI to see if I have any pituitary issues...we have it scheduled for this coming Wednesday.

Also has me doing an salivary test for my cortisol, which will take a few weeks to get the results back.

In the meantime wants to start treatment with:

Says t3/t4 ratio is screwed up, switches me from synthroid to armour. Having trouble tolerating the armour dose right now, however, so I need to touch base with him on that.

Says estradiol is slightly high, puts me on .5 mg of arimidex M/W/F

Says you can do either test or HcG, but recommends HcG for fertility. I agree.
Has me on 2,000 IU's of HcG self injected SubQ 2 x per week.

I am 3 days in and feel pretty crappy, due to the overdose of armour me thinks. Otherwise I am optomistic but a little scared.

What does everyone think with this regimen?

Thanks everyone.

So, what meds are you currently taking? From your posts, I agree with the T4, nit the armour thyroid. What is the TSH prior to treatment.

The hCG treatment is absurd and without any support. It is a theoretical mumbo jumbo. As you can read, I think these guys are leading you down a road to ill-health. I will predict that you will not be under their care long.
 
Ok so I am a 23 year old guy who has had a ton of anxiety, fatigue, brain fog for the past 3 years. Blood tests showed low T, subclinical hypothyroidism, with nodules. After some bad docs I have a new primary care physician who while not really knowledgable about HRT, he receives HRT from an anti-aging doc in the area who is! He refers me to him.

This guy looks at my tests and suggests:
An MRI to see if I have any pituitary issues...we have it scheduled for this coming Wednesday.

Also has me doing an salivary test for my cortisol, which will take a few weeks to get the results back.

In the meantime wants to start treatment with:

Says t3/t4 ratio is screwed up, switches me from synthroid to armour. Having trouble tolerating the armour dose right now, however, so I need to touch base with him on that.

Says estradiol is slightly high, puts me on .5 mg of arimidex M/W/F

Says you can do either test or HcG, but recommends HcG for fertility. I agree.
Has me on 2,000 IU's of HcG self injected SubQ 2 x per week.

I am 3 days in and feel pretty crappy, due to the overdose of armour me thinks. Otherwise I am optomistic but a little scared.

What does everyone think with this regimen?

Thanks everyone.

So, what meds are you currently taking? From your posts, I agree with the T4, not the armour thyroid. What is the TSH prior to treatment.

The hCG treatment is absurd and without any support. It is a theoretical mumbo jumbo. For now, do not begin any TRT.

As you can read, I think these guys are leading you down a road to ill-health. I will predict that you will not be under their care long.
 
hCG can work well if the person is secondary... does for me.

Work well for what? infertility? secondary hypogonadism? If secondary hypogonadism, what type? There are many causes of secondary hypogonadism. Do you mean adult onset idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism? or functional HH? or . . . ?
 
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