Ok, how retarded am I?

[bigMoJo]

Your kidneys are alarming, the rest of the markers are "usual" and manageable.

eGFR is based off creatinine level... obviously, your is 1.66... that's extremely high. It's a good number if you're trying to pack on mass... so, that part of your plan is working.

What's your diet like? I imagine with creatinine at 1.66, you're eating a lot of protein... I estimate it's over 300 grams/day based on your weight. 300 grams of protein/day is putting a huge strain on your kidneys, along with the gear, BP, dhydration, etc. Need to ease the strain.

As far as diet, supplement with 8000mg/day of astralagus root.. it will improve blood flow to the kidneys and reduce protein in the urine (albuminurea).

TUDCA, Milk Thistle, Glutathione, NAC, Fish oil & Vit D are only going to help with liver and lipids.

Yes hydrate, start drinking a lot of water, and supplement with electolyte if still training. Find an electrolyte powder with Himalayan salt and about 1 gram of Taurine. You should be pissing every 30 mins.

Get on BP meds if you're not already, and check your BP 3 times a day until you have the right dosage/BP. High BP will strain and destroy the kidneys.

As far as tests, Cystatin C AND Albuminurea (urine albumin-creatinine ratio (uACR) test). This will give a better picture of kidney health. Then, re-test every 30 days. If within 3 months your eGFR and kidney markers havn't improved (they should), it's time.

 

[ackmack78]

NO history of BP issues. But, possible kidney damage from who knows when or why. Earliest egfr I could find was 66 in 2019. I had barely just started at a TRT clinic back then. No previous AAS/cycles.
I just started tracking BP and over this last cycle it seemed to average 130/80 at the start and has been around 140/85 last few weeks.
I think 130/80 has been my norm as far as I can remember.
Is that too high?

140/85 is pushing it mostly the 140 is a concern. It's not horrible for an isolated event but not something you want to have that high over the long term months or years.

130/80 is better, I would recommend speaking to your DR about bp meds.

 

[YatesIsBased]

it's time.

Yikes!
I just purchased a whole lot of astralagus root and will be hydrating my ass off. I'll be adding the uACR test as well.
Thank you for the advice.
Jic - anyone got a lead on ug kidneys?

 

[Snurfdabble]

bigMoJo is pretty spot-on. One thing to remember about creatinine is that it's a very labile marker and one reading out of range means absolutely nothing.

You're trying to diagnose kidney problems without having done a simple urine test. Come on, man. Go to your primary care physician. Your issues are bread and butter of a PCP.

 

[Bigoldguy]

Yikes!
I just purchased a whole lot of astralagus root and will be hydrating my ass off. I'll be adding the uACR test as well.
Thank you for the advice.
Jic - anyone got a lead on ug kidneys?

This is just opinion from and old dude (61) but I think at this point Id drop to trt and give my body a chance to recover. You have a goal of 35lbs of lean muscle in a short time frame...it looks to me thet youre trying to turn a marathon into a sprint. All you organs have got a lot of mileage on them and wont recover near as quickly from a bad hit. Last thing you need is to end up having to do dialysis, even for just a short term. Go to trt, look over your plan for growth and tweak as needed.

Hydrating is good but keep in mind that just because youre making a lot of urine doesnt mean the kidneys are filtering, it just means they are dumping fluid.

Bigmojo hit it on the head...get the BP under control. 140 isnt horrendous but hypertension is one of the big kidney killers. At 55 I think they like to see a egfr of about 90-95.

 

[malfeasance]

You do not say how tall you are.

This is why I stopped adding weight for competitive bodybuilding purposes and dropped about 30 pounds, when I was still younger than you. Blood pressure and cardiovascular concerns.

As to your eGFR, it would certainly get my attention, but I would not panic yet.

eGFR should be adjusted for muscle mass. It isn't. This was the thinking behind having a different, adjusted value for black males, until they decided a few years ago that it was racist or some BS. It wasn't, and there was science to back it up. It had nothing to do with race but with average differences in muscle mass - any doctor should have been informed enough to adjust for a black male without much muscle or a while male with a lot of muscle.

eGFR was falsely reduced by -5·9 ± 1·4 mls/min per 10 kg lean mass. Adipose mass and percentage fat had no effect on error. Muscle-associated error varied with each eGFR formula and influenced all CKD stages.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(20)30406-5/fulltext

 

[malfeasance]

Low muscle mass may cause considerable overestimation of single measurements of eGFRCr. Muscle wasting may cause spurious overestimation of repeatedly measured eGFRCr. Implementing muscle mass‐independent markers for estimating renal function, like cystatin C as superior alternative to creatinine, is crucial to accurately assess renal function in settings of low muscle mass or muscle wasting. This would also eliminate the negative consequences of current race‐based approaches.

Muscle mass and estimates of renal function: a longitudinal cohort study - PMC

Creatinine is the most widely used test to estimate the glomerular filtration rate (GFR), but muscle mass as key determinant of creatinine next to renal function may confound such estimates. We explored effects of 24‐h height‐indexed creatinine ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[malfeasance]

Participants with a normal eGFR had lower handgrip strength than those with a mildly reduced eGFR (−9.5%, P < 0.001) and those with a moderately–severely reduced eGFR (−6.3%, P = 0.033) with mean strengths of 23.4, 25.8 and 24.9 kg, respectively. Participants with a normal eGFR had a smaller calf circumference than those with a mildly reduced eGFR (35.5 versus 36.5 cm, P = 0.006)

https://academic.oup.com/ageing/article/47/2/269/4683826

 

[YatesIsBased]

bigMoJo is pretty spot-on. One thing to remember about creatinine is that it's a very labile marker and one reading out of range means absolutely nothing.

You're trying to diagnose kidney problems without having done a simple urine test. Come on, man. Go to your primary care physician. Your issues are bread and butter of a PCP.

Oh, come on. A little astragalus root and some Gatorade and be back on the Tren train in no time. Jk.

I agree. BigMoJo and others have been spot on. I appreciate the wealth of knowledge and everyone's willingness to offer some help.

I plan on seeing my GP. This just came up and I don't need him seeing my Test at 4k. I'm off the gear and prioritizing my health at this point. I'll get my own bloodwork done at the end of the month and then see the GP.

BTW - My long-term goal is 265/10%. I was just hoping to reach 250 on this cycle, just because I've never been that big.

Appreciate you.

 

[YatesIsBased]

Muscle mass and estimates of renal function: a longitudinal cohort study - PMC

Creatinine is the most widely used test to estimate the glomerular filtration rate (GFR), but muscle mass as key determinant of creatinine next to renal function may confound such estimates. We explored effects of 24‐h height‐indexed creatinine ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Hello sir. Working right now but will check out these links asap. Thank you for sending these.

 

[Bigoldguy]

You do not say how tall you are.

This is why I stopped adding weight for competitive bodybuilding purposes and dropped about 30 pounds, when I was still younger than you. Blood pressure and cardiovascular concerns.

As to your eGFR, it would certainly get my attention, but I would not panic yet.

eGFR should be adjusted for muscle mass. It isn't. This was the thinking behind having a different, adjusted value for black males, until they decided a few years ago that it was racist or some BS. It wasn't, and there was science to back it up. It had nothing to do with race but with average differences in muscle mass - any doctor should have been informed enough to adjust for a black male without much muscle or a while male with a lot of muscle.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(20)30406-5/fulltext

Yep, but at 55 the egfr is still almost 50pts low...thats concerning. Still, if its an AKI, it has a good chance of recovering once whatever is hammering them is removed. The 1.6 creatinine didnt bug me as much since just working out hard the day before can elevate that one.

NO history of BP issues. But, possible kidney damage from who knows when or why. Earliest egfr I could find was 66 in 2019. I had barely just started at a TRT clinic back then. No previous AAS/cycles.
I just started tracking BP and over this last cycle it seemed to average 130/80 at the start and has been around 140/85 last few weeks.
I think 130/80 has been my norm as far as I can remember.
Is that too high?

Thats a lil high, I think at 55 they like to see less than 125 systolic and less than 80 diastolic. If you dont want to jump on BP meds, try beet powder in the morning. Dropped mine about 10 points systolic. It might work, it might not.

 

[Steve0691]

Oh, come on. A little astragalus root and some Gatorade and be back on the Tren train in no time. Jk.

I agree. BigMoJo and others have been spot on. I appreciate the wealth of knowledge and everyone's willingness to offer some help.

I plan on seeing my GP. This just came up and I don't need him seeing my Test at 4k. I'm off the gear and prioritizing my health at this point. I'll get my own bloodwork done at the end of the month and then see the GP.

BTW - My long-term goal is 265/10%. I was just hoping to reach 250 on this cycle, just because I've never been that big.

Appreciate you.

How tall are you? 265 at a REAL10% is no joke. Dont take it as discouragement because i believe people can make their own choices but first assumption without seeing pics id have to assume youre bodyfat is underestimated, which most ppl(myself included) tend to do. If your closer to the 18-20% range at 230 then youre looking at adding 50lbs of muscle tissue. Thats gonna take some serious time, effort and pushing things

 

[YatesIsBased]

You do not say how tall you are.

This is why I stopped adding weight for competitive bodybuilding purposes and dropped about 30 pounds, when I was still younger than you. Blood pressure and cardiovascular concerns.

As to your eGFR, it would certainly get my attention, but I would not panic yet.

eGFR should be adjusted for muscle mass. It isn't. This was the thinking behind having a different, adjusted value for black males, until they decided a few years ago that it was racist or some BS. It wasn't, and there was science to back it up. It had nothing to do with race but with average differences in muscle mass - any doctor should have been informed enough to adjust for a black male without much muscle or a while male with a lot of muscle.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(20)30406-5/fulltext

I'm 6' 1".
30lb drop? You must have been a beast. Nice.
Thank you. Trying not to panic, but it's certainly got my attention!

 

[YatesIsBased]

How tall are you? 265 at a REAL10% is no joke. Dont take it as discouragement because i believe people can make their own choices but first assumption without seeing pics id have to assume youre bodyfat is underestimated, which most ppl(myself included) tend to do. If your closer to the 18-20% range at 230 then youre looking at adding 50lbs of muscle tissue. Thats gonna take some serious time, effort and pushing things

I'm 6-1.
Yup, 265 and 10% is probably not realistic at my age. Maybe more of a dream than a goal. Honestly, I have no idea how to judge my bodyfat. It probably is underestimated. Not sure I fully understand what 10% is really like either, but it sounded like a worthy goal!
I've thought of posting a photo for critique, but I've got some identifiable tattoos and the internet is forever.
I'm not trying to compete as a bodybuilder but I like the look and I'm addicted to the gym.
Maybe 250 and 13% is more realistic. Depending on the kidneys, it may all be over anyway. Back to 200 and 20% lol.
Appreciate your candor.

 

[Grey Spartan]

Looks like your egfr wasnt great beforehand, the cycle just made it worse. Is your blood pressure under control? That's the biggest risk to the kidneys. Not sure what is common for other 55 year olds around here maybe they can chime in but at 40 I'm pushing a 105 egfr on cycle even when pushing 2g of gear.

I would just trt for now and with those numbers pull a cystatin c which is more reliable and I think hydration doesn't matter with that test. In the future if you cycle again probably stay away from anything that raises bp or puts a lot of water on you quickly which then raises bp so maybe no deca or anadrol and keep your e2 in range so you don't hold water.

My egfr has been in the 90s or high 80s @ 55+, while on gear. My BP was 125/75. I'm trying and experiment with Telmaheal 80mg. My current BP is 116/68 and I have labs next week. The goal is to see if any kidney functions change with the lower BP. Not sure if 5 weeks will change anything.

 

[Bigoldguy]

My egfr has been in the 90s or high 80s @ 55+, while on gear. My BP was 125/75. I'm trying and experiment with Telmaheal 80mg. My current BP is 116/68 and I have labs next week. The goal is to see if any kidney functions change with the lower BP. Not sure if 5 weeks will change anything.

90s for kidney function is in the normal range at 55. Im 61 and my function is 84 (normal for 60 plus).

It doesnt sound like your BP was high enough to damage the kidneys, more age related. At 55 you BP was considered normal.

 

[malfeasance]

30lb drop? You must have been a beast.

Not really. I am 6 feet tall. I was in the 250s, and now I am down in the 220s. I competed (weigh in) at 207, and I was shooting for, hopefully competing at a stage weight of more like 220 in the year when I realized things were not going in the proper direction. I mean, my weight was going in the proper direction, but so was my blood pressure, incrementally, a little bit with each pound gained, so one day I just quit. Done.

I miss being bigger, but not enough to be buried early for it. I still have little kids at home.

 

[YatesIsBased]

Muscle mass and estimates of renal function: a longitudinal cohort study - PMC

Creatinine is the most widely used test to estimate the glomerular filtration rate (GFR), but muscle mass as key determinant of creatinine next to renal function may confound such estimates. We explored effects of 24‐h height‐indexed creatinine ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Yup, I'm hoping that my above average muscle mass, high protein intake, strenuous gym work and dehydration have skewed my egfr by 50 points. lol. Fingers crossed. We will see.
I'm going to take a break and do everything suggested to help and we'll see what the blood work, including Cystatin-C and uACR says at the end of the month. I'll be back to post the results, good or bad.

 

[malfeasance]

Not sure how reliable eGFR is, anyway. Just being honest.

2016, mine was 80. Had I been black, they would have said it was 93.

2019, 70. Oh, no! If I was black it would have been 80, but, hey, this is still a downward trend, right? Well, also, I was three years of training and cycles bigger.

2020 Lean up for competition. During prep two tests (not for eGRF purposes)
1st - 77 (89 if black)
So, wait, it went back up? I thought kidneys only go down? LOL
2nd 75 (87 if black)

2021 68 (oh, no! Worst yet.). 79 if black. I must be dying or at least about to go on dialysis, right?

Then, later, and not much later, it is 78 (90 if black). LOL. See what I mean????

Last year it was 72, and they do not give black numbers anymore. It is "in range" as is everything else, including my creatinine, so I am not worried about this at all.

 

[YatesIsBased]

Not really. I am 6 feet tall. I was in the 250s, and now I am down in the 220s. I competed (weigh in) at 207, and I was shooting for, hopefully competing at a stage weight of more like 220 in the year when I realized things were not going in the proper direction. I mean, my weight was going in the proper direction, but so was my blood pressure, incrementally, a little bit with each pound gained, so one day I just quit. Done.

I miss being bigger, but not enough to be buried early for it. I still have little kids at home.

That's awesome. Much respect for prioritizing your health and family. My kids are almost out of high school and it would be nice to be around for grandkids.
I'm grateful to have found this site and gentlemen like yourself to talk to.