MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
On HCG 25yrs old, Concerned!
- Thread starter riped
- Start date
=====================================================1cc said:
VERY GOOD QUESTION.
The reason being is that the study referenced, Coviello AD et al., (2005), Low-dose human chorionic gonadotropin maintains intratesticular testosterone in normal men with testosterone-induced gonadotropin suppression, J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005 May;90(5):2595-602, will give some insight to the current hCG regimen that some of the forum members currently use with their TRT!!!
I believe there is a misinterpretation for their comment, in subjects that had complete T suppression.
The participants in this study were treated with T enanthate (TE), 200 mg im weekly, for rapid gonadotropin suppression in conjunction with a variable dose of hCG, delivered sc every other day for 3 wk: 0 (saline placebo), 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG. The placebo group served as the control group.
So, what we have are male subjects with elevated T levels due to exogenous T enanthate. Their endogenous production of T is completely suppressed (theoretically) as are their gonadotropins. ITT is suppressed due to the inhibition of gonadotropins from the exogenous T enanthate.
The hCG is administered to normal male subjects with elevated T levels. This is similar to TRT.
NOTE: THIS RESEARCH SETTING IS ENTIRELY AND COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AND DISTINCT FROM A HYPOGONADISM CONTEXT.
They found that each dose of hCG (125, 250, and 500 IU) returned the ITT concentration to normal. The data set being measured was not serum T, it was ITT. This should alert one to the stupidity of the research design. This was a waste of resources, in my opinion. The one saving grace for the study is that it will be instructive to those using low dose hCG with their TRT. The very simple reason is that in a normal male with a normal serum T their ITT will be normal. All this study did was take a normal male and replace his T with exogenous T and than give hCG which replaced his LH. Duh
The hCG dose has absolutely no relation to an individual with hypogonadism; no relation to anabolic steroid induced hypogonadism; no relation to spermatogenesis; no relation to
It does tell us something about hCG therapy while on TRT. I mentioned above that if one is going to use hCG while on TRT they should have something to observe, measure, and document. Why? If you are taking a drug, any drug, and do not have a dataset to monitor the effect of the drug you need to seriously think about what you are doing. I would ask them when did you decide to relinquish the control of your body?
It would be of interest to look at the data on serum T changes with each hCG dose . The subjects are on T enanthate so this is very similar to those on hCG with TRT. The finding is that the dose of hCG 125 IU every other day had NO effect on the serum T. The two higher doses did raise the serum T levels above normal. There is no individual data (always a cause for suspicion when reviewing literature) and there are no significance levels. Visual inspection of the graph, however, shows that the serum T level was not significantly different from control until day 21. If I was administering hCG less frequently than every other day and had no dataset to monitor I would be concerned.
Peace
Mike
I agree Dr. Scally that the study after all, is merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition. Keep in mind the goal of this is, "Greater understanding of the effect of hCG on ITT will facilitate the design of future studies of the intratesticular hormonal microenvironment in relation to spermatogenesis with a focus on the ability to achieve uniform azoospermia for the ultimate goal of developing a successful male contraceptive."
I think studies that show HH patients dosed from 1000 IU to 1500 IU causing the biphasic response in testosterone production, or even taking more than that produces is proof of LH-desentization, I believe.
Most TRT patients on this board gets by just fine with 250 IU's. Probably the AAS bros (which are more like HH patients) would need more, but I have never heard taking more than 500 IU's at a time is of more benefit.
Dustin
I think studies that show HH patients dosed from 1000 IU to 1500 IU causing the biphasic response in testosterone production, or even taking more than that produces is proof of LH-desentization, I believe.
Most TRT patients on this board gets by just fine with 250 IU's. Probably the AAS bros (which are more like HH patients) would need more, but I have never heard taking more than 500 IU's at a time is of more benefit.
Dustin
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asih.net said:
One can deduce that the dosage of HCG required to maintain ITT, would be equivalent to the amount of LH that the body produces. Replacing deficient LH is the best that one can hope to accomplish. Taking more HCG than is required to replenish deficient LH would be unnatural to the body and would cause accelerated increases in estrogen and progesterone with a declining increase in testosterone. There is only so much T that the testes can produce via HCG stimulation, and thereafter any deficient T would be best replenished exogenously. The correct dosage of HCG on an individual basis can be determined by monitoring the effect on estrogen and progesterone levels. At 150iu HCG my progesterone level was at 125% (1.53 0.28-1.22).Once I reduced it to 100iu it was at 58% (0.7 <1.2).
The following is from the study:
All three hCG groups in this study (125, 250, and 500 IU, given every other day) maintained ITT at levels statistically indistinguishable from baseline. These doses are 1020% of the doses commonly used in male infertility treatment (12502000 IU, two or three times weekly). Endocrinologists and andrologists have been aware that the doses of hCG traditionally used to treat certain types of infertility are supraphysiological and may expose patients to high levels of T and estradiol, with the consequent risk of clinically significant gynecomastia (37). The ability to prescribe hCG doses at lower levels to target normal serum and ITT and normal spermatogenesis would be useful for this patient population.
"The one saving grace for the study is that it will be instructive to those using low dose hCG with their TRT. The very simple reason is that in a normal male with a normal serum T their ITT will be normal.
given the nature of this group, that would be a major saving grace along with another major group, that of those who suppress their endogenous T with exo test and are interested in maintaining ITT.
jb
given the nature of this group, that would be a major saving grace along with another major group, that of those who suppress their endogenous T with exo test and are interested in maintaining ITT.
jb
i see a difference in the t levels in the lowest hcg group based on visual interpretation. also they did report confidence levels for some results. why not email the authors to get the full text of the study and see exactly what was measured and analyzed, when papers are submitted to journals certain edits are requested for the sake of brevity and since serum T was not a major experimental outcome it may have been edited. you are critizing an experimental design based on what may not be the most complete journal submission i have seen. And while this paper may not be on point to this post For many of us, this reasearch sheds light on a subject that badly needs it.
jb
jb
asih.net said:
DLMCBBB said:
I was on TRT for almost 1 year from being shutdown from a cycle. The other doc never mentioned anything to jumpstart my HPTA, so he did what any doc would do and put me on TRT.
Felt good at first but then felt worse.
After almost a year on TRT and testicles the size of your ear lobe, I decided to do HCG, clomid and novladex.
I started out with 500iu ED and after about 18 days I still didnt see the results I was looking for as far as testicular size was concerned.
I bumped that up to 2500iu EOD and noticed immediate results, morning wood, actually having some sex drive, felt good, face got greasy like normal.
So from my point of view, 500iu did almost nothing to reverse my testicular atrophy in comparison to 2500iu.
Night and day diffrence.
I did all this under Mike's direction and can honestly say I am off TRT and feel awesome.
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Here is what works for me I was doing 150 mgs. of Depo T shots every week my Total T was 650 ng/dL range 262 - 1593. 22 yrs. ago I was told I am Primary my first blood test my Toal T was 120 ng/dl my LH and FSH were mid range.
I started on HCG with the T shots doing 500 IU's 3 times a week. After my
15th shot we did a blood test my Total T went up to 1135 ng/ml a big jump in my levels. For the first time in 22 yrs. I felt great. So what made my T go up so high. My Dr. ordered a MRI on my Pituitary and everything looks good. My E2 did become a bigger problem so we lowered my HCG to 100 IU's a day and my T shots to 64 mgs every 3 days this helped. I was taking one mg. of Arimidex everyday but going on the every 3 days shot my E2 got much better and now I just do .5 mgs of Arimidex every 3 days or the day of my T shot. My levels droped to 890 on this not doing so great so my Dr. put me back up to 500 IU's I do this shot on the 2 days between my T shots. Still me E2 is good. I did a blood test last Tue. so we will see how my tests look in 2 weeks.
Still for the life of me can't figure out if my testis are making this much T using HCG or why my levels went up so high.
I started on HCG with the T shots doing 500 IU's 3 times a week. After my
15th shot we did a blood test my Total T went up to 1135 ng/ml a big jump in my levels. For the first time in 22 yrs. I felt great. So what made my T go up so high. My Dr. ordered a MRI on my Pituitary and everything looks good. My E2 did become a bigger problem so we lowered my HCG to 100 IU's a day and my T shots to 64 mgs every 3 days this helped. I was taking one mg. of Arimidex everyday but going on the every 3 days shot my E2 got much better and now I just do .5 mgs of Arimidex every 3 days or the day of my T shot. My levels droped to 890 on this not doing so great so my Dr. put me back up to 500 IU's I do this shot on the 2 days between my T shots. Still me E2 is good. I did a blood test last Tue. so we will see how my tests look in 2 weeks.
Still for the life of me can't figure out if my testis are making this much T using HCG or why my levels went up so high.
The_Skeptic
New Member
DLMCBBB said:
Were these graphs ever posted on this site? I would like to take a look at them.
hackskii said:
You do know that the "tincture of time" the testes are not under direct stimulation of gonadotropins, it will take "priming" if you were to get them going again, as we have talked about on this message board some time ago right? If you have used 500 IU all throughout your TRT for 1 year, you would not need 2500 IU after.
In fact I even remember swale saying for bros on AAS that did not intermittently use hCG throughout their cycle, that he doesnt see a problem for a patient to use 1000 IU ED for at least a week.
Dustin
hackskii said:
I'm glad you're feeling better.
It is likely that 500iu would have worked if it had been given more time. The 2500iu achieved results quicker. There are really only 2 concerns with 2500iu approach:
1. Did you have any gyno type symptoms, like nipple sensitivity etc. during the 2500iu regimen (BTW, for how long and how often did you take 2500iu)?
2. What is the highest dosage of HCG that one can take and over what period of time without needing to be concerned about leydig desensitization? (for Dr Mike)
DLMCBBB said:
I feel that 500iu for a year would cause some de-sensitization issues.
Where would recovery be after the leydig cells didnt respond to LH.
All the clomid and nolva in the world would not fix this problem.
My TRT doc never prescribed any HCG. After almost a year I felt worse.
I was forced to come off, this is why I went to Mexico to buy my HCG as I could not get a scrip form my doc. Again the 500iu didnt do much compared to the 2500 and that was 8 shots total.
I think even Mike S. suggests to cycle off HCG at some point to stop or address de-sensitization issues, and I know it is sooner than a year.
1cc said:
I took clomid and nolvadex together so gyno was never an issue.
Never had any nipple sensitivity.
2500 EOD x 8 shots. Or 20,000iu HCG
If I did 500 a day for 40 days to equal that 20,000 amount I am sure there would be de-sensitization issues.
Bump for Mike on question 2.
hackskii said:
Bro, people have used this, and much more for longer than a year without any desensitization issues. I think there is this misconception about desensitization causing reduced response to CG after repeated injections. This only happens with large doses, research shows this at a dosage of 1500 IU compared to the same dosage spread out in increments of 300 IU ED for 5 days. There was no desensitization of the low dose protocol.
hackskii said:
Who ever said it would? All the clomid in the world sure wouldn't have helped your case after being shut down for so long.
hackskii said:
Again this is because you did not use it intermittently throughout your AAS cycle, to start with. You then could have simply followed it with a SERM at an appropriate serum dosage. If you simply had just transitioned the use of TRT with CG you would not need large doses of 2500 IU later on.
hackskii said:
Sure with large doses, not appropriate ones!
Dustin
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ItalianPride
New Member
i'm 27 and i have no prob grtting it back up from hcg...but now i cant bust a nut...what gives...im only doing 500iu et itts been a week so far, loss most of my sensitivity...i can get myself off but when im with my girl man its hard as hell, and my girl is pretty hot...plus im using a rubber.. anyone gone through that problem...?
