Optimal HGH protocol - Timing from a health perspective

[Stronglift]

Hi all,

I am planning on adding HGH for the first time to my next cycle, I am thinking to start at 2IU daily and work up to 4-6 IU.
Been cutting to around 10% and will start my bulk & cycle In a few days
Currently on low carbs around 80 but will go up to around 500 during my bulk.

I have now been reading for months on how to incorporate this to my regiment (Reading this forum, Reddit, YouTube gurus etc) There is so much conflicting information out there.


My main goal for HGH: Assist in building mass while helping with recovery, but doing it as safe as possible where health and longevity is main priority.
I would obviously appreciate the fat burning effects of it while bulking.

I have read @Type-IIx great thread regarding GH and fat loss protocol LINK TO THREAD
Managed to understand it thanks to @MFAAS ELI5 version.

I still am unclear regarding the following topics:
1) The optimal protocol for HGH does not necessarily take health into consideration but shows the optimal timing for desired purpose (Fat loss)
How would you time your meals if insuline resistance is your main concern? Should you be eating right before/after a dose?

2) I understand that metformin is generally a good tool to have in the arsenal with good risk/reward ratio. Will buy some, is there any timing that works best for this in relation to HGH? Can I take them together?

My fasted blood sugar this morning was around 90.
My blood work for B-HbA1c pre cycle shows: 33 (Reference range 28-42)

3) My contact has two types of Metformin,
One is Metformin Actavis 500 mg x 100
The other one is Metformin Glucophage XR 500 mg x 60

The difference is that XR is slow released, is this the preferred one for our purpose?

I am very very grateful for any response!

 

[Black Beard]

Hi all,

I am planning on adding HGH for the first time to my next cycle, I am thinking to start at 2IU daily and work up to 4-6 IU.
Been cutting to around 10% and will start my bulk & cycle In a few days
Currently on low carbs around 80 but will go up to around 500 during my bulk.

I have now been reading for months on how to incorporate this to my regiment (Reading this forum, Reddit, YouTube gurus etc) There is so much conflicting information out there.


My main goal for HGH: Assist in building mass while helping with recovery, but doing it as safe as possible where health and longevity is main priority.
I would obviously appreciate the fat burning effects of it while bulking.

I have read @Type-IIx great thread regarding GH and fat loss protocol LINK TO THREAD
Managed to understand it thanks to @MFAAS ELI5 version.

I still am unclear regarding the following topics:
1) The optimal protocol for HGH does not necessarily take health into consideration but shows the optimal timing for desired purpose (Fat loss)
How would you time your meals if insuline resistance is your main concern? Should you be eating right before/after a dose?

2) I understand that metformin is generally a good tool to have in the arsenal with good risk/reward ratio. Will buy some, is there any timing that works best for this in relation to HGH? Can I take them together?

My fasted blood sugar this morning was around 90.
My blood work for B-HbA1c pre cycle shows: 33 (Reference range 28-42)

3) My contact has two types of Metformin,
One is Metformin Actavis 500 mg x 100
The other one is Metformin Glucophage XR 500 mg x 60

The difference is that XR is slow released, is this the preferred one for our purpose?

I am very very grateful for any response!

Three times weekly will prevent any insulin resistance in most people. per studies and is ideal for bulking; strength and mass


Staying lean, carrying good amount of muscle and regular cardio will keep you very insulin sensitive without metformin barring bad genetics.

 

[realista]

Three times weekly will prevent any insulin resistance in most people. per studies and is ideal for bulking; strength and mass


Staying lean, carrying good amount of muscle and regular cardio will keep you very insulin sensitive without metformin barring bad genetics.

but which dosage if only 3times? i suppose if normal dose is 2iu, doing eod should be 4iu, mon wed fri

but i ve heard that 4iu at single shot is not optimal and splitting dosage should be preferred. so maybe in these 3 days better to inject upon waking morning and prebed 2iu each? but this would short the time gap beetween the 3 days dosing mhhhh

 

[Capodecapi]

Its same fckin shit bro rly.

 

[realista]

so 3 times week 4iu

 

[Capodecapi]

try whats better for you

 

[Black Beard]

but which dosage if only 3times? i suppose if normal dose is 2iu, doing eod should be 4iu, mon wed fri

but i ve heard that 4iu at single shot is not optimal and splitting dosage should be preferred. so maybe in these 3 days better to inject upon waking morning and prebed 2iu each? but this would short the time gap beetween the 3 days dosing mhhhh

"optimal" for what? Context is everything here. Optimal for fat loss daily or twice daily, but worse for blood sugar. Optimal for insulin sensitivity and muscle building/strength building; three times weekly.


The MWF dose is the same weekly dose, just condensed into three days. So something like 4.5 IU MWF = 2 IU daily

 

[Type-IIx]

Three times weekly will prevent any insulin resistance in most people. per studies and is ideal for bulking; strength and mass


Staying lean, carrying good amount of muscle and regular cardio will keep you very insulin sensitive without metformin barring bad genetics.

Curious to see the studies that show 3X weekly rhGH administration prevents insulin resistance.

 

[Black Beard]

Curious to see the studies that show 3X weekly rhGH administration prevents insulin resistance.

More Favorable Metabolic Impact of Three-Times-Weekly versus Daily Growth Hormone Treatment in Naïve GH-Deficient Children - PMC

To evaluate whether two different regimens of weekly injections could lead to similar auxological and metabolic effects in children with growth hormone deficiency (GHD). 32 GHD children (25 males, mean age 10.5 ± 2.2 yr) were randomly assigned to ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The difference was substantial.

 

[Type-IIx]

More Favorable Metabolic Impact of Three-Times-Weekly versus Daily Growth Hormone Treatment in Naïve GH-Deficient Children - PMC

To evaluate whether two different regimens of weekly injections could lead to similar auxological and metabolic effects in children with growth hormone deficiency (GHD). 32 GHD children (25 males, mean age 10.5 ± 2.2 yr) were randomly assigned to ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The difference was substantial.

This is great, thank you.

 

[lynks8]

Three times weekly will prevent any insulin resistance in most people. per studies and is ideal for bulking; strength and mass

Thank you for posting that study. I've only skimmed it so far, but it's very interesting and appears to have been designed and executed carefully.

That said, I'm curious as to why you're asserting that 3x weekly is superior for building muscle? Is there literature that supports this claim as well?

 

[Black Beard]

Thank you for posting that study. I've only skimmed it so far, but it's very interesting and appears to have been designed and executed carefully.

That said, I'm curious as to why you're asserting that 3x weekly is superior for building muscle? Is there literature that supports this claim as well?

Yeah, there are a bunch of other studies proving it superior for strength and muscle and i believe it's thanks to preserving the insulin sensitivity in the muscle cells which is also likely why daily is better for fat loss (insulin resistant fat cells = worse at storing energy and making you fat)


This is one of them, but there are a bunch and it's supported by many anecdotes by bodybuilders like Dorian Yates.

Growth hormone replacement therapy in adults with growth hormone deficiency; thrice weekly low dose administration - PMC

Recent reports on growth hormone (GH) therapy have shown that GH has various beneficial effects in GH deficient adults. In most of these studies, GH was administered daily. Because GH is still expensive and has to be delivered by subcutaneous ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Type-IIx]

Thank you for posting that study. I've only skimmed it so far, but it's very interesting and appears to have been designed and executed carefully.

That said, I'm curious as to why you're asserting that 3x weekly is superior for building muscle? Is there literature that supports this claim as well?

Just looking at the first cited study by Ciresi, et al., the claim that t.i.w. (thrice weekly) administration is superior for anabolism versus q.d. (daily) administration does not hold merit (but it is relevant to the thread because it does hold merit for benefits for metabolic outcomes and longevity/health, and I thank Black Beard for sharing it).

Between-group differences existed only in changes (increases) to fasting insulin & HOMA-IR (a model of insulin resistance).

Since fasting insulin contributes to insulin resistance (worsening HOMA-IR; increasing it), and because during prolonged subcutaneous rhGH administration (in a state of positive energy balance), the actions of IGF-I and insulin prevail 8-10 h post-injection, this makes sense.

Insulin, despite its deleterious effects on longevity/health and insulin resistance, is a vital growth factor (along with IGF-I) in the mechanisms by which rhGH augment growth.

Here, this study is applicable due to dosing for our (bodybuilding) purposes, it is a relevant model. The weekly dose, 0.175 mg/kg corresponds to 7.5 IU daily rhGH for a 100 kg man [or 17.5 IU t.i.w.; thrice weekly).

 

[realista]

i would order hgh kit, to start a mild cycle, just something a bit higher than antiaging (i am 35yo).

before this thread i thought a nice protocol is 2iu 5days week. but also read about EOD injections (basically 3 times week) for healthier long term benefits. but i have a doubt.

should i spread total dosage i would use into 3 days use?
2iu x5=10 then /3days=3.33iu . is it right? (would be 0.33ml if i reconstitute a 10iu vial with 1ml bac water)

last doubt for type2x would it be stupid to add mk677 on tues and thur to keep own natural production still alive(pulsing) and not fully inhibited by hgh?

 

[Type-IIx]

i would order hgh kit, to start a mild cycle, just something a bit higher than antiaging (i am 35yo).

before this thread i thought a nice protocol is 2iu 5days week. but also read about EOD injections (basically 3 times week) for healthier long term benefits. but i have a doubt.

should i spread total dosage i would use into 3 days use?
2iu x5=10 then /3days=3.33iu . is it right? (would be 0.33ml if i reconstitute a 10iu vial with 1ml bac water)

last doubt for type2x would it be stupid to add mk677 on tues and thur to keep own natural production still alive(pulsing) and not fully inhibited by hgh?

Your math is correct, and it would not be rational to combine MK0677 (Ibutamoren) because there is an interference effect from rhGH on its GH release. It also comes with a host of side effects usually not well tolerated, it's mostly shit.

 

[Black Beard]

Just looking at the first cited study by Ciresi, et al., the claim that t.i.w. (thrice weekly) administration is superior for anabolism versus q.d. (daily) administration does not hold merit (but it is relevant to the thread because it does hold merit for benefits for metabolic outcomes and longevity/health, and I thank Black Beard for sharing it).

Between-group differences existed only in changes (increases) to fasting insulin & HOMA-IR (a model of insulin resistance).

Since fasting insulin contributes to insulin resistance (worsening HOMA-IR; increasing it), and because during prolonged subcutaneous rhGH administration (in a state of positive energy balance), the actions of IGF-I and insulin prevail 8-10 h post-injection, this makes sense.

Insulin, despite its deleterious effects on longevity/health and insulin resistance, is a vital growth factor (along with IGF-I) in the mechanisms by which rhGH augment growth.

Here, this study is applicable due to dosing for our (bodybuilding) purposes, it is a relevant model. The weekly dose, 0.175 mg/kg corresponds to 7.5 IU daily rhGH for a 100 kg man [or 17.5 IU t.i.w.; thrice weekly).

The first study is for three times weekly being better for insulin sensitivity, the second one is about it being better for muscle and strength gains.

 

[realista]

Your math is correct, and it would not be rational to combine MK0677 (Ibutamoren) because there is an interference effect from rhGH on its GH release. It also comes with a host of side effects usually not well tolerated, it's mostly shit.

i appreciate the reply but i can t understand what would be the interference if mk is only used 2 times a week on these 2 NOT pinning days (tues and thur).

in theory that substance should trigger on "off hgh pinning days" an endogenous production that is instead halted on mon wed friday nights.

and ok mk could be shit if used 7 or 5 days week and at over 15mg... but at 10mg and only 2 days...no side effects can occur.
i repeat this protocol is only a my idea, a reasoning based on the fact that own production is halted even if hgh is pinned 3days week, just a concept to keep endogenous production still alive on tuesday/thursday

 

[Type-IIx]

i appreciate the reply but i can t understand what would be the interference if mk is only used 2 times a week on these 2 NOT pinning days (tues and thur).

in theory that substance should trigger on "off hgh pinning days" an endogenous production that is instead halted on mon wed friday nights.

and ok mk could be shit if used 7 or 5 days week and at over 15mg... but at 10mg and only 2 days...no side effects can occur.
i repeat this protocol is only a my idea, a reasoning based on the fact that own production is halted even if hgh is pinned 3days week, just a concept to keep endogenous production still alive on tuesday/thursday

The duration of interference is ~1 day after a GH bolus, so go ahead and use it bearing that in mind, I don't particularly care what you do. Just think MK0677 is shit.

 

[Type-IIx]

The first study is for three times weekly being better for insulin sensitivity, the second one is about it being better for muscle and strength gains.

OK, I read through Chung. I find these results strange, and I'll explain why I think that might be (besides the finding of noninferiority [never superiority] of thrice weekly vs. daily administration being a relative outlier among, e.g., Hermanussen 1985; Albertsson-Wikland 1986; Kikuchi 1988, etc.)

I strongly suspect the results conferred to thrice weekly (0.18 IU/kg/wk, 1.5 IU/d equivalent) are a result of this group's duration of GH deficiency (8.4 +- 2.2 years versus 13.4 +- 4.1 years [group 2, daily admin.] & 12.4 +- 3.5 years [group 3, placebo]). Besides the aetiology of adult GHD affecting responsiveness to treatment, so too does the duration of GHD (shorter durations being more conducive to treatment).
* These results were, by relevance, ↑mid-thigh muscle area (cm²) & grip strength

Yet daily higher dose (3.6 IU/d equivalent, 60 kg) showed IGF-I increases substantially > thrice weekly low dose (1.5 IU/d equivalent, 60 kg) that peaked at 6 months (approx. 275 μg/l vs. 160 μg/l) and despite a decrement (a known phenomenon) in ΔIGF-I by 12 months, the superiority in GH response (ΔIGF-I) still persisted for the higher dose group (group 2) with 230 μg/l vs 210 μg/l or thereabouts.

A highly relevant section in Results reported that in the higher dose group, calculated total body muscle mass increased significantly. This begs the question were there unpublished data that were excluded? What methods were used, computed tomography like for thigh muscle area, to distinguish between LBM changes? Why publish only LBM data, then? Or, is this merely an unsophisticated typo, confounding LBM with total body muscle mass?

Anyway:

What I did find interesting was the absence of any decrement in GH response (increase to serum IGF-I) over 12 mo with less frequent dosing. This implicates further binding protein dynamics (IGFBPs, GHBP), and perhaps downstream elements on the GH signalling cascade (JAK2/STAT5, etc.)

I think there is merit to less frequent, higher dose boluses (I've long believed this).

I am skeptical, though, whether the primary outcome we are interested in (increased IGF-I) is maintained adequately with < 6 days/wk pinning of rhGH.

 

[Justaguy99]

OK, I read through Chung. I find these results strange, and I'll explain why I think that might be (besides the finding of noninferiority [never superiority] of thrice weekly vs. daily administration being a relative outlier among, e.g., Hermanussen 1985; Albertsson-Wikland 1986; Kikuchi 1988, etc.)

I strongly suspect the results conferred to thrice weekly (0.18 IU/kg/wk, 1.5 IU/d equivalent) are a result of this group's duration of GH deficiency (8.4 +- 2.2 years versus 13.4 +- 4.1 years [group 2, daily admin.] & 12.4 +- 3.5 years [group 3, placebo]). Besides the aetiology of adult GHD affecting responsiveness to treatment, so too does the duration of GHD (shorter durations being more conducive to treatment).
* These results were, by relevance, ↑mid-thigh muscle area (cm²) & grip strength

Yet daily higher dose (3.6 IU/d equivalent, 60 kg) showed IGF-I increases substantially > thrice weekly low dose (1.5 IU/d equivalent, 60 kg) that peaked at 6 months (approx. 275 μg/l vs. 160 μg/l) and despite a decrement (a known phenomenon) in ΔIGF-I by 12 months, the superiority in GH response (ΔIGF-I) still persisted for the higher dose group (group 2) with 230 μg/l vs 210 μg/l or thereabouts.

A highly relevant section in Results reported that in the higher dose group, calculated total body muscle mass increased significantly. This begs the question were there unpublished data that were excluded? What methods were used, computed tomography like for thigh muscle area, to distinguish between LBM changes? Why publish only LBM data, then? Or, is this merely an unsophisticated typo, confounding LBM with total body muscle mass?

Anyway:

What I did find interesting was the absence of any decrement in GH response (increase to serum IGF-I) over 12 mo with less frequent dosing. This implicates further binding protein dynamics (IGFBPs, GHBP), and perhaps downstream elements on the GH signalling cascade (JAK2/STAT5, etc.)

I think there is merit to less frequent, higher dose boluses (I've long believed this).

I am skeptical, though, whether the primary outcome we are interested in (increased IGF-I) is maintained adequately with < 6 days/wk pinning of rhGH.

So low dose every day you believe is best or am I misreading this?