Optitropin Janoshik Test results with Dimer

[Liska]

I don't know enough to say.

That's the correct position, we cannot possibly know yet. We need to gain an understanding at what the new column is seeing in terms of dimer and related proteins that was not visible before or skip that to and focus on at what point these percentages become relevant for practical usage (=increases side effects) especially at high dosages used in competitive BB because even though dimer is expressed as a percentage, it stacks quantitatively like everything else.

While the 4% acceptable dimer treshold stated in the pharmacopoeia is relevant if determined via that specific testing method (which we aren't using and which is fairly blind compared to Jano old and new) and the relevant patients (minors) at clinical dosages, it's not applicable to our community.

This thread has an extensive HGH multidimer blind test:

(Independent) Growth Guys Canada Janoshik Results

Hey everybody. Fairly new to the forum, I started taking GH a few months ago, and the last time I ordered from GGC I had ordered quite a bit. I decided to send in 6 entire vials all from different boxes to Jano. Here are the results...

thinksteroids.com

Note the max spread of 0.7% between 0.5% - 1.2% samples presumably pulled from the same kit.

https://janoshik.com/tests/33272-rHGH_vial_black_top_MJ2R19LIH4QF

My own tests have 0.6% between 1.3% - 1.9% and 0.8% between 0.8% - 1.6%

Janoshik Analytical

Janoshik Analytical

I doubt it's relevant for practical useage if this variance is due to method, manufacturing or a mix of both (it's the last one). Considering this variance, I suggest we describe single vial/pen dimer tests as "somewhere in range of" rather than "product A has exactly 0.5% so it definitely has less dimer than product B showing 1%" to disincentive gacha game labtesting as a marketing tool (trying to get a report that shows the best possible single vial pull from a batch and claiming this as representative of the entire batch).

We can further observe that the variance in dimer seems unrelated to the variance in quantity and purity - no matter how consistent those variables, the dimer result doesn't follow.

@Klimmzugernie Not significant in my experience. Never shipped HGH to Janoshik cooled in any way no matter the temperature, transit times anywhere from days to weeks, only ever heard of it being a factor with Norditropin once. Haven't heard of anyone shipping theirs cooled in any way from the US or Canada either.

 

[clearheaded]

while I agree with liska as per usual. 1 thing I dont think we can do as of yet, "in the range of" because if we look at Janos 'pharma' test they are incredibly similar in dimmer(vs generics in liska and others showing much greater variation ie 1%+) for the most part at least, 1 test was an outlier otherwise all pretty similar.

that is to say, we need a bit more data but sorta looks like pharma perhaps is more consistent as far as dimmer vs generic... IF thats the case id be willing to bet the dimmer is more likely to be formed in manufacturing esp when we look at jano test that UV seems to be what is the issue... OR poor vac in generic and tiny bits of moisture/more atmosphere in the vial and allow dimmer to be created and may help explain why such variance even in same batch (some generics are worse for randomly having less or no vac)....(or perhaps testing artifact, but again if pharma is showing less variance consistently (we dont know that 100% yet) its more likely something to do with generic manufacturing ESP if the pharma is from UG supply chains and not kept in fridge at the pharmacy..

thanks guys for doing all the research/taking time to explain/discuss it!

 

[clearheaded]

Genotropin für instance use manitol In their powder to make it more resistant against changing conditions and vibrations.

uh?
generics use mannitol aswell, not sure any hgh is lyophilized without it or similar compound for the same reasons so that doesn't make any sense.... thats why the pucks are so big and not a few tiny flakes ie 3mg

 

[T&H]

while I agree with liska as per usual. 1 thing I dont think we can do as of yet, "in the range of" because if we look at Janos 'pharma' test they are incredibly similar in dimmer(vs generics in liska and others showing much greater variation ie 1%+) for the most part at least, 1 test was an outlier otherwise all pretty similar.

that is to say, we need a bit more data but sorta looks like pharma perhaps is more consistent as far as dimmer vs generic... IF thats the case id be willing to bet the dimmer is more likely to be formed in manufacturing esp when we look at jano test that UV seems to be what is the issue... OR poor vac in generic and tiny bits of moisture/more atmosphere in the vial and allow dimmer to be created and may help explain why such variance even in same batch (some generics are worse for randomly having less or no vac)....(or perhaps testing artifact, but again if pharma is showing less variance consistently (we dont know that 100% yet) its more likely something to do with generic manufacturing ESP if the pharma is from UG supply chains and not kept in fridge at the pharmacy..

thanks guys for doing all the research/taking time to explain/discuss it!

You're a lot more interested in dimer than I am. Truth is, most or many members for years have apparently been using hgh with dimer despite older reports showing none.

Because the only thing that changed is this testing method, so it must not be extremely bad or toxic. Obviously higher percentage would maybe cause issues but haven't personally seen high dimer tests yet.

 

[B Ware]

I’m honestly not sure what to make of it and as Liska and T&H have stated there’s not enough data to make heads or tails of it. The data that is available shows dimmer to be all over the place even when testing 3 vials from the same kit.

I will say for you guys that haven’t been around long, Opti’s grey tops have been around for years and are the most tested hgh on the market as not only does he test each batch but so do his international resellers and not a single test report has ever shown dimmer until Jano was forced to make a change as what he used to order previously became unavailable. Seeing dimmer in the grey tops is definitely bizarre but doesn’t worry me or change my opinion of them in the slightest.

 

[Liska]

Seeing dimmer in the grey tops is definitely bizarre but doesn’t worry me or change my opinion of them in the slightest.

This isn't even dimer testing's final form, you could go further beyond in upgrades and see even tinier and completely irrelevant imperfections resulting in scarier numbers representing a product that itself never changed. Forget about the ideal of zero dimer just like we forgot about 99%+ purity HGH.

I propose we focus on the question most relevant for harm reduction: "Roughly what % of dimer noticeably increases unwanted side effects at medium to high dosages?"

Despite the Ansomone having an unexpectedly high dimer, I haven't heard reports of increased sides like water retention so far, so if that applies to higher dosages as well it could serve as one data point suggesting that 2% poses no great danger now.

If we can build a library of anecdotal reports on side effects by members running medium to high dosages of properly tested HGH (it's important to consider batch obfuscation by sources) with >1% dimer in a properly titled and tagged thread (for search) in the HGH subforum, we could be on top of this before the year is over. It would be ideal if there was no mention of brands and anyone asking for sources in a research thread got shot.

This thread suggests that 99% of Meso doesn't understand these numbers yet, which leaves room for broscience explanations to (be) spread, a primary food source for certain vultures.

 

[clearheaded]

yes no changes just because test shows something. however perhaps sheds light onto side effects folks note, and random nature of the sides per person esp with generic. ESP if we start to see consistent and lower dimmer in genos/pharma for example. anyway, time will tell... wonderful to have jano thats forsure.

shrodingers liška as it were.....lol

 

[HB_22]

and random nature of the sides per person esp with generic

I dont think so. There's pharma stuff that tested worse than generics, yet some people claim that pharma gear to be superior in all aspects (which I personally don't agree with either).

 

[Liska]

I dont think so. There's pharma stuff that tested worse than generics, yet some people claim that pharma gear to be superior in all aspects (which I personally don't agree with either).

Pharma and Generic are not manufacturers nor do the manufacturers grouped into either category share manufacturing practices or product characteristics that we know of and/or could use to differentiate between the two categories by any means accessible to us. These classifications regard company status, not product qualities.

Some people make the same claims you mention comparing one pharma HGH brand to another pharma HGH brand, some preferring the lower purity one, now what? If this is a matter of interaction/compatibility with the individual user via some variable that we have not identified in the product nor the user, here's to another twenty years of being stuck at this question.

 

[clearheaded]

just was comparing the recent test of dimmer jano did on pharma the dimmer content was much more consistent with only 1 outlier(this is a theory and very general statement) vs generics which now seem to be all over the place 0.3-1.6% within same batch/kit etc. again the point is it will be interesting if that stays consistent (pharma having steady amounts of dimmer). while yes I know some cinnotropins in the past test bad it will be interesting if much more consistent as far as dimmer. yes outliers and I never proclaimed anything is definite as early days on that new column just the theory in very general terms is perhaps 1 reason folks are expereincing different sides comparing to usa brand pharma and generics, is perhaps generics have wider ranging dimmer %(generally), now assuming its manufacturing if within 1 kit there is great variation perhaps some isoforms are created in differing % or something else unknown in generics...again, we dont know im not claiming I do, simply a theory based on a few data points...

 

[Liska]

simply a theory based on a few data points...

You can group Pfizer and Ankebio together based on company status but you can't group Genotropin and Ansomone together as if they're samples by the same manufacturer or product and then call one result an outlier. Learn to embrace the darkness and wait for some power-hungry drug-pushing demon overlord to throw up the data of your dreams.

 

[Clappincheeks]

 

[Jhonnygym]

You can group Pfizer and Ankebio together based on company status but you can't group Genotropin and Ansomone together as if they're samples by the same manufacturer or product and then call one result an outlier. Learn to embrace the darkness and wait for some power-hungry drug-pushing demon overlord to throw up the data of your dreams.

When new geno online ?

 

[songsofpyramids]

That's the correct position, we cannot possibly know yet. We need to gain an understanding at what the new column is seeing in terms of dimer and related proteins that was not visible before or skip that to and focus on at what point these percentages become relevant for practical usage (=increases side effects) especially at high dosages used in competitive BB because even though dimer is expressed as a percentage, it stacks quantitatively like everything else.

While the 4% acceptable dimer treshold stated in the pharmacopoeia is relevant if determined via that specific testing method (which we aren't using and which is fairly blind compared to Jano old and new) and the relevant patients (minors) at clinical dosages, it's not applicable to our community.

This thread has an extensive HGH multidimer blind test:

(Independent) Growth Guys Canada Janoshik Results

Hey everybody. Fairly new to the forum, I started taking GH a few months ago, and the last time I ordered from GGC I had ordered quite a bit. I decided to send in 6 entire vials all from different boxes to Jano. Here are the results...

thinksteroids.com

Note the max spread of 0.7% between 0.5% - 1.2% samples presumably pulled from the same kit.

https://janoshik.com/tests/33272-rHGH_vial_black_top_MJ2R19LIH4QF

My own tests have 0.6% between 1.3% - 1.9% and 0.8% between 0.8% - 1.6%

Janoshik Analytical

Janoshik Analytical

I doubt it's relevant for practical useage if this variance is due to method, manufacturing or a mix of both (it's the last one). Considering this variance, I suggest we describe single vial/pen dimer tests as "somewhere in range of" rather than "product A has exactly 0.5% so it definitely has less dimer than product B showing 1%" to disincentive gacha game labtesting as a marketing tool (trying to get a report that shows the best possible single vial pull from a batch and claiming this as representative of the entire batch).

We can further observe that the variance in dimer seems unrelated to the variance in quantity and purity - no matter how consistent those variables, the dimer result doesn't follow.

@Klimmzugernie Not significant in my experience. Never shipped HGH to Janoshik cooled in any way no matter the temperature, transit times anywhere from days to weeks, only ever heard of it being a factor with Norditropin once. Haven't heard of anyone shipping theirs cooled in any way from the US or Canada either.

Thank you for dropping such great information so regularly. I have learned a ton from your posts.

 

[JY Pharma]

Thank you for dropping such great information so regularly. I have learned a ton from your posts.

I do feel the same.

 

[BrockSamson42]

I def prefer to see dimmer now in tests. Anything above 4% I think isn't considered safe to use, or rather the pharmacopeia limit in Europe is 4%

 

[Liska]

I def prefer to see dimmer now in tests. Anything above 4% I think isn't considered safe to use, or rather the pharmacopeia limit in Europe is 4%

Do you know which dimer tests are performed via the specific guidelines/settings that number is meant for, and which are not? Are you aware that neither you nor I have access to this method of dimer testing at the moment and that those guidelines are not meant for, tested on, or applicable to bodybuilders anyways?

 

[T&H]

I def prefer to see dimmer now in tests. Anything above 4% I think isn't considered safe to use, or rather the pharmacopeia limit in Europe is 4%

Well I'd rather not see dimer. Because now practically every HGH test is showing it, despite nothing changing but whatever Jano did. So what's the point.

Based on many recent tests, many have probably been using hgh with dimer despite pre-April 2023 testing showing none. And I've yet to see it directly causing problems for users of hgh.

 

[LittleBigManDaddy]

What is the theoretical concern with dimmer as far as health?

 

[songsofpyramids]

Well I'd rather not see dimer. Because now practically every HGH test is showing it, despite nothing changing but whatever Jano did. So what's the point.

Based on many recent tests, many have probably been using hgh with dimer despite pre-April 2023 testing showing none. And I've yet to see it directly causing problems for users of

What is the theoretical concern with dimmer as far as health?

More dimmer = more unwanted sides like cts, water retention, etc, is the theory. Anecdotally the theory holds up, but we have little actual science to show it. 4% dimmer seems to be the level accepted by wester pharma in their products, but we have no idea how they do that testing or arrive at that number and it could be very different than how jano does their testing.