PCT with Nolva, is Clomid a better alternative

[maddog101]

OK, I'm about to begin a cycle (Dbol/TestE) and I think I have everything lined up as described in another thread.
I am planning on a Nolva 40/40/20/20 PCT, which I understood to be a suitable PCT (I already have the Nolva on hand).
However, I read yesterday on a thread that Clomid will encourage natural Test to resume, and Nolva will not...is this correct?
At any rate, isn't Nolva an accepted and tried PCT? Will it take longer for my natural Test to resume using Nolva instead of Clomid?
Thanks
PS No firm plans to use HCG but I could if it will help

 

[Bill Roberts]

No, Nolvadex also aids in recovery of natural T production, and probably is about as good in doing so, but if libido is a concern Clomid can be better.

HCG during the cycle would help, so as to avoid reduction of testicular function from happening in the first place.

 

[Demondosage]

I hate clomid myself, I stick to aromasyn and HCG, but nolva is good too. The HCG is the real ticket

 

[Bill Roberts]

Well, HCG not only does nothing to restore LH production, it works somewhat against it.

Mood response to Clomid is very individual. There is a percentage of users who, like you, dislike it on mood issues but for most there isn't a problem.

 

[Demondosage]

Bill, this is news to me, can you elaborate on this for me please? Thanx

 

[Bill Roberts]

HCG acts like LH at the testes. So it can stimulate the testes to produce testosterone, or to maintain size during the cycle, or to regrow after atrophy.

LH is produced by the pituitary. A steroid cycle results in suppression of LH production. There's always at least one problem at the end of a cycle: restoring LH production. Clomid or Nolvadex can act at the hypothalamus to aid in this part of the situation (the hypothalamus sends the signal to the pituitary to produce LH.)

If HCG isn't used during a cycle, then in some cases -- many cases if the cycle was of extended length -- the testes become unresponsive so there are two problems at the same time.

Now if this has been allowed to occur, it may be necessary to use HCG post-cycle. However this isn't preferable as first it's better simply to avoid the problem in the first place, and then secondly HCG use seems to slow LH recovery somewhat.

On the mood issues, while Clomid and Nolvadex work the same way at the hypothalamus, it appears that Clomid is estrogenic (acts like estrogen) in other parts of the brain, where Nolvadex works as an antiestrogen.

For some, the estrogenic mood effect of Clomid is a problem.

On the other hand, perhaps because a normal degree of estrogenic effect in the brain is helpful or in some cases needed for libido (men do have significant levels of estrogen normally, though much less than women) Nolvadex's apparent anti-estrogenic effect in the brain can result in impaired libido. Or whether that is the reason or not, at any rate it happens fairly often.

 

[maddog101]

Thanks for the replies.
Bill, I think I'm understanding that it would be a good idea to use HCG during cycle, to avoid the problem of the testes becoming unresponsive, is this correct? (In other words, is it generally a better plan to use HCG during cycle rather than not to use it, in your opinion?)
Secondly, if I were to use Nolva rather than Clomid PCT, AND if libido is impaired, how long does that generally last?
thanks!

 

[Bill Roberts]

Yes, on the HCG.

On the Nolvadex, only until the Nolvadex has largely cleared the system, which is roughly a couple of weeks past discontinuance. Sometimes a week is sufficient.

 

[maddog101]

Yes, on the HCG.

On the Nolvadex, only until the Nolvadex has largely cleared the system, which is roughly a couple of weeks past discontinuance. Sometimes a week is sufficient.

OK Bill, thanks as always!

 

[Bill Roberts]

Glad to help, hope you have great results!

 

[Paperclip]

On the mood issues, while Clomid and Nolvadex work the same way at the hypothalamus, it appears that Clomid is estrogenic (acts like estrogen) in other parts of the brain, where Nolvadex works as an antiestrogen.

It's still not clear to me how SERMs (are both SERMs?) could make the LH production going back to normal faster.

So the hypothalamus senses that the estrogen level in the blood is high but after an application of a SERM, it competes with estrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and makes it thinks that now the estrogen level is low. Then the hypothalamus releases GnRH so that the pituitary resumes its normal LH (and FSH?) production. How far off am I from the truth?

 

[Michael Scally MD]

It's still not clear to me how SERMs (are both SERMs?) could make the LH production going back to normal faster.

So the hypothalamus senses that the estrogen level in the blood is high but after an application of a SERM, it competes with estrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and makes it thinks that now the estrogen level is low. Then the hypothalamus releases GnRH so that the pituitary resumes its normal LH (and FSH?) production. How far off am I from the truth?

By, George, I think you have got it! [It is probably more than the hypothalamus.]

 

[Demondosage]

Bill, thankx so much, thats some great info. Would you still recommend clomid use for someone on HRT? I have read that there are some benefits to using it to try and restore HPTA to some sort of a degree, but if one was on test (we might as well just say HRT) at small doses for yrs at a time would clomid benefit any at all? My normal "recovery" (or what I do on HRT doages in between cycles is aromasyn and HCG, I have tried D-aspartic acid before as well, along with 4 grams/day tribulus.

See, my thoughts on the aromasyn with HCG between cycles was to keep estrogen rebound to a minimum while I ramped back down to normal HRT dosaging. Do I sort of have the right idea anyways? Thanks bro!!

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Bill, thankx so much, thats some great info. Would you still recommend clomid use for someone on HRT? I have read that there are some benefits to using it to try and restore HPTA to some sort of a degree, but if one was on test (we might as well just say HRT) at small doses for yrs at a time would clomid benefit any at all? My normal "recovery" (or what I do on HRT doages in between cycles is aromasyn and HCG, I have tried D-aspartic acid before as well, along with 4 grams/day tribulus.

See, my thoughts on the aromasyn with HCG between cycles was to keep estrogen rebound to a minimum while I ramped back down to normal HRT dosaging. Do I sort of have the right idea anyways? Thanks bro!!

No!!!

You seem to have a very rough idea for the HPTA. However, if you are on AAS for "years," the likelihood the HPTA is normal when "off" is nil.

 

[maddog101]

This is all great info, thanks Dr. Scally

 

[Demondosage]

No!!!

You seem to have a very rough idea for the HPTA. However, if you are on AAS for "years," the likelihood the HPTA is normal when "off" is nil.

This idea comes from possibly some outdated material. I was referring to Dante's blast and cruise 4 wk method followed by clomid for 2-3 wks, HOWEVER, it never mentioned anything about how this plays into HRT use. Yes, HRT, although not prescribed, but I know my body wont make normal amounts anymore. Maybe I'm not making myself very clear, ok so I know "recovery" is out of the question, but is there any sort of control measures I should be following to keep estrogen levels lower? I know when I drop dosages back down lower to HRT levels after I've blasted estrogen levels have to creep up to some degree? To they not? Thanks

 

[Bill Roberts]

Bill, thankx so much, thats some great info. Would you still recommend clomid use for someone on HRT? I have read that there are some benefits to using it to try and restore HPTA to some sort of a degree, but if one was on test (we might as well just say HRT) at small doses for yrs at a time would clomid benefit any at all? My normal "recovery" (or what I do on HRT doages in between cycles is aromasyn and HCG, I have tried D-aspartic acid before as well, along with 4 grams/day tribulus.

See, my thoughts on the aromasyn with HCG between cycles was to keep estrogen rebound to a minimum while I ramped back down to normal HRT dosaging. Do I sort of have the right idea anyways? Thanks bro!!

Any concerns with estrogen levels are best -- really, only -- dealt with by measuring blood estradiol levels and using an antiaromatase as needed.

There are many men on HRT who really never needed to be put on HRT (their situation likely could have been corrected), but as a consequence of it, now they really do have substantial long term suppression issues. It can be worth trying a course of Clomid to see if LH production can be restored, but I don't recommend Clomid or Nolvadex for constant ongoing use.

 

[Ramrod]

Any concerns with estrogen levels are best -- really, only -- dealt with by measuring blood estradiol levels and using an antiaromatase as needed.

There are many men on HRT who really never needed to be put on HRT (their situation likely could have been corrected), but as a consequence of it, now they really do have substantial long term suppression issues. It can be worth trying a course of Clomid to see if LH production can be restored, but I don't recommend Clomid or Nolvadex for constant ongoing use.

umm interesting...i just use Nolvadex for my tits me.....if balls are shrunk big time i hit the Clomid untill i think there hanging low....