PED's for the Endurance Athlete.

[Rocks Off]

I realize that most people don't come to Meso to figure out how to gain an edge in their bicycling or running abilities but it might be interesting to start an all-in-one thread for triathletes, swimmers, cyclists, and runners to discuss what regimens they have had success with in the past, and what gear/supplements they are currently using.

I've been doing a lot of reading and research on Meso and other sites and at best it's a mixed bag of what might be a benefit to an endurance athlete and what might not. One person will say one thing, one person will say another. It gets very confusing.

So what is an endurance athlete looking for? Improved strength without too much increased muscle. Reduced recovery times. Increased hematocrit and RBC levels. Fat loss. Reducing joint pain/fatigue. Keeping water retention and bloat to a minimum. Increasing V02 Max.

Some of the PED's and dosages that I've come across as being recommended for endurance athletes are:

Testosterone E/C/P @ 100-150mg/week
Equipoise @ 200-400mg/week
Winstrol @ 20-30mg/ED after exercise
Anavar@ 10-20mg/ED
HGH @ 2-5iu/ED 5/2

What else? Test Suspension after hard effort? Andriol before and after effort? HCG? IGF? I'm well aware of EPO but I'm going to assume most of us don't have access to daily blood testing. What about AI's for the endurance athlete, any special considerations to be made?

So, let's hopefully hear from people with real world experience or good second hand information about their regimens, dosages, and what has worked and not worked for them.


P.S.
Contained in this thread: https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/steroids-for-endurance.134265155/ is a very interesting article that @Millard Baker posted from RoadBikeReview (before it was deleted) about doping regimens in professional bike racing and how some get around controls. Another Meso member also reported good results from low-dose Winstrol and Anavar.

This Link: http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/dropping-in/I-Couldn-t-Be-More-Positive.html provides a first hand account of an amateur bike racer who spent a year as a lab rat taking supplemental testosterone to find out if it could transform him from an average Joe. His conclusion? No doubt about it.

This Link: https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/endurance-stack-sust-eq-gw-albuterol.134351521/ provides a well thought out cycle for an endurance athlete by using Sustanon and Equipoise.

This Link: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/test-steroids-endurance-athletes-909623-3.html provides a personal experience by someone who says that 125mg of Test is sufficient for endurance athletes and suggested using Winstrol 25mg or Test Suspension after effort.

 

[Millard]

Unfortunately, looking to the doping protocols of professional cyclists, we don't always see the optimal, safest way to use PEDs. Instead, we see the most convenient ways to avoid doping controls.

So what is an endurance athlete looking for? Improved strength without too much increased muscle. Reduced recovery times. Increased hematocrit and RBC levels. fat loss. Reducing joint pain/fatigue. Keeping water retention and bloat to a minimum. Increasing V02 Max.

Some of the PED's and dosages that I've come across as being recommended for endurance athletes are:

testosterone E/C/P @ 100-150mg/week

Microdosing with testosterone has been common for a long time in cycling. Andriol saw its fair share of use. Remember, Ferrari allegedly poked the gelcaps with a safety pin and had athletes squeeze out liquid under their tongue. US Postal moved on to using testosterone patches for about an hour at night.

I think testosterone would be primarily for recovery. And I'm not sure it would help to increase the dosage beyond microdoses (under doping control conditions) or typical therapeutic dosages of 100-150 mg (with no doping controls or a TUE).

Androgens help a little with hematocrit. A non-endurance athletes on TRT can often see HCT levels between 50-55%. But even a recreational cyclist (less than 250 km/wk) on TRT would see that level reduced to below 50% in most cases. I don't imagine there is any way a pro cyclist could reach the 50% allowable threshold on microdoses or even TUE for TRT.

Optimal HCT management requires other blood boosting practices. Of course, there's the EPO and transfusions but I'm curious about the prevalence of undetectable (prohibited) techniques such as xenon therapy -> https://thinksteroids.com/community...dal-passport-asp.134306259/page-3#post-977950

AAS are still in use in the peloton. You may have seen the reports in November that three cyclists on the Astana Continental team tested positive for anabolic steroids. (The Astana Pro team member Vincenzo Nibali won this year's TdF.) Whether it was testosterone or another AAS was not specified.

Contained in this thread: https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/steroids-for-endurance.134265155/ is a very interesting article that @Millard Baker posted from RoadBikeReview (before it was deleted) about doping regimens in professional bike racing and how some get around controls.

The "deleted" article from RoadBikeReview was written by @Realgains. He has posted on MESO too. I hope he is around to give some insight. It would be nice to hear what has changed in the past 6 years since he wrote the article.

 

[Rocks Off]

Microdosing with testosterone has been common for a long time in cycling. Andriol saw its fair share of use. Remember, Ferrari allegedly poked the gelcaps with a safety pin and had athletes squeeze out liquid under their tongue. US Postal moved on to using testosterone patches for about an hour at night.

Yes, I remember the Tyler Hamilton 60 Minutes interview and reading in his book about this practice. I didn't know he was talking about Andriol until recently. I think sitting down with Ferrari and one of these pro cyclists would be an eye opening experience into their world.

I think testosterone would be primarily for recovery. And I'm not sure it would help to increase the dosage beyond microdoses (under doping control conditions) or typical therapeutic dosages of 100-150 mg (with no doping controls or a TUE).

So are you saying that beyond a certain point that the amount of exogenous testosterone applied becomes deleterious or ineffective to the endurance athlete? If an athlete is already on, say, 150mg of Test Cyp every week, then is micro dosing with something like Andriol not going to help? Are you saying that the only people that would benefit from a micro dose of test would be people who already have depressed test levels from continued endurance exercise?

Androgens help a little with hematocrit. A non-endurance athletes on TRT can often see HCT levels between 50-55%. But even a recreational cyclist (less than 250 km/wk) on TRT would see that level reduced to below 50% in most cases. I don't imagine there is any way a pro cyclist could reach the 50% allowable threshold on microdoses or even TUE for TRT.

As a cyclist (in really awful shape right now) my HCT at last check was about 47% naturally. Would you expect a big drop, say, 6-8% with continual endurance exercise over time? If so, that begs the question: if endurance athletes are putting the whammy on their test levels and HCT levels and since EPO A&B and CERA, and exogenous T are all detectable now then what are these cyclists taking to get their HCT levels up to but not over 50%? I know the old fallback of blood packing is still occurring but I thought someone from WADA or USADA had created a test that would detect the plastics that the bags and tubes leave behind in the blood after transfusion?

AAS are still in use in the peloton. You may have seen the reports in November that three cyclists on the Astana Continental team tested positive for anabolic steroids. (The Astana Pro team member Vincenzo Nibali won this year's TdF.) Whether it was testosterone or another AAS was not specified.

Yes, I posted the link to the story in the Steroid News forum last week. The three continental team members were using AAS, though, we don't know which kind. And then the Iglinsky Bro's who rode with Nibali during his TdF win were both popped for EPO use. It just boggles my mind that these pro athletes are willing to take stuff that they know they will be tested for.

I have a theoretical question for you: you have two men, twins in fact. They both have the same baseline blood values for TT, FT, LH, FSH, SHBG, etc., etc. They are both put on 150mg Test Cyp/ week. One of the brothers takes up weight lifting. The other brother takes up cycling. And they both do their respective sport for a year. At the end of that year what sort of differences in blood values are we going to see in our brothers? Are we going to see that the cyclist, in spite of the 150mg of exogenous TC is going to have much reduced T levels then his brother the weight lifter who is on the same dose?

 

[Millard]

Yes, I remember the Tyler Hamilton 60 Minutes interview and reading in his book about this practice. I think sitting down with Ferrari and one of these pro cyclists would be an eye opening experience into their world.

Especially Ferrari.

The "how to" details in Hamilton's book and the USADA testimony were very interesting. I touched on some of them in my book review:

https://thinksteroids.com/articles/tyler-hamiltons-guide-anabolic-steroids-epo-cycling/

So are you saying that beyond a certain point that the amount of exogenous testosterone applied becomes deleterious or ineffective to the endurance athlete? If an athlete already on, say, 150mg of Test Cyp every week, then micro dosing with something like Andriol won't help? Are you saying that the only people that would benefit from a micro dose of test would be people who already have depressed test levels from continued endurance exercise?

I'm not sure what the optimal AAS dosage would be for endurance athletes. I think an AAS dosage beyond a certain amount would be deleterious for pure endurance sports (unlike bodybuilding/strength sports were incremental gains are seen with escalating dosages). I honestly don't know what point that would be - but I would guess it's not much higher than therapeutic dosages.

Exogenous microdosing and TRT would benefit most endurance athletes -- not just those with suppressed levels (although those would see greatest benefit) -- because rarely dose an individual have a TT at the top end of the normal distribution. For example, in a range of 270-1,070, few people will be in the upper quadrant. TRT allows athletes to better control TT.

I know the old fallback of blood packing is still occurring but I thought someone from WADA or USADA had created a test that would detect the plastics that the bags and tubes leave behind in the blood after transfusion?

I haven't heard much about this in several years -- maybe since back when Contador tested positive for clenbuterol. There were rumors that he tested positive for plastic residues in his blood. I don't think the test was validated at the time -- maybe they weren't able to due to the the prevalence of plastic residues in the foods/environment (from non-doping sources)? And it was abandoned as a result?

Yes, I posted the link to the story in the Steroid News forum last week. The three continental team members were using AAS, though, we don't know which kind. And then the Iglinsky Bro's who rode with Nibali during his TdF win were both popped for EPO use. It just boggles my mind that these pro athletes are willing to take stuff that they know they will be tested for.

I would like to know the name of the AAS that was detected. I missed your post - https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/5th-violation-for-ped-use-for-astana-in-2014.134360425/ - but I couldn't find any mention of the specific steroid involved.

I find it hard to believe they would use it if they knew they could get caught. Maybe they were using a type of AAS or a method of AAS administration that had previously been undectected.

For example, there were dozens of positive doping results for stanozolol in the past year or two. This wasn't because athletes started using more Winstrol. It was because WADA developed a more sensitive test.

This could have been the case with Astana. Or perhaps Astana was just heavily targeted by the UCI because of Nibali's win + Vinokurov's history?

I have a theoretical question for you: you have two men, twins in fact. They both have the same baseline blood values for TT, FT, LH, FSH, SHBG, etc., etc. They are both put on 150mg Test Cyp/ week. One of the brothers takes up weight lifting. The other brother takes up cycling. And they both do their respective sport for a year. At the end of that year what sort of differences in blood values are we going to see in our brothers? Are we going to see that the cyclist, in spite of the 150mg of exogenous TC is going to have much reduced T levels then his brother the weight lifter who is on the same dose?

Without TRT, I think extreme endurance athletes would be suppressed compare to weightlifting/strength athlete. TRT should even out the differences. But if the exogenous T didn't entirely suppress HPTA, the exogenous T + extreme endurance training certainly would!

 

[gohardgofast]

This is a good thread. New here. My understanding is that injectable test is not used at the Pro Tour level. The only test used is androgel 1% or testim after a hard day. It is not even at trt levels. Only I packet right after getting off of the bike and a shower. Simply for recovery. Usually no more than 2-3 days a week. That way the rebound is at a minimum. Aromatization(added weight) is not a factor, levels are never too high for the doping test, the biological passport numbers aren't off and PCT is not necessary(PCT drugs are very detectable).

From what I've seen, Lower Level riders who aren't as scrutinized but still subject to some testing will go cyp/e in the off season then 3.5 months or so out go to prop then 1 month out go to Suspension and 3 days out go to androgel.

 

[Big_paul]

You can use GW if cancer isn't a concern. I heard it worked well for Armstrong. Jk I wouldn't touch it.

Millard has given some very good advice.

 

[gohardgofast]

And GW is highly detectable for a long time, but I hear it works.

 

[Millard]

From what I've seen, Lower Level riders who aren't as scrutinized but still subject to some testing will go cyp/e in the off season then 3.5 months or so out go to prop then 1 month out go to Suspension and 3 days out go to androgel.

What does the pattern of testosterone use (dosages and cycles) look like for lower levels riders in the off-season?

Pro riders do what they can get away with given restrictions of doping controls -- but they may not necessarily receive maximal benefits from AAS doping. What do unscrutinized amateurs get away with without such restrictions?

 

[gohardgofast]

That depends on your plans. I think anywhere between 100 and 150mg a week in at least 2 doses is good. Any more and you're sure to gain water. You can run a cycle like that as long as you need or want to. I'd add HCG at 200mg every 3-4 days. Keep the boys plump. You may need very low AI dose buy if you are a runner I'd be careful. AI induced joint pain can stop you from any effective training for weeks.

 

[Onabull]

Pros do not do Test E or Cyp because of the long half life of the esters. Andriol is well known as a useful recovery PED.

I have used test E for a few years at 100 mg/wk. It helped with recovery and maybe just a little in power. But it also added water weight, which sort of negates the effects for an athlete.

I understand this is a steroid forum. There will be suggestions for Test, HGH, etc. But in the area of endurance performance, nothing comes close to EPO.

 

[Rocks Off]

Pros do not do Test E or Cyp because of the long half life of the esters. Andriol is well known as a useful recovery PED.

I have used test E for a few years at 100 mg/wk. It helped with recovery and maybe just a little in power. But it also added water weight, which sort of negates the effects for an athlete.

I understand this is a steroid forum. There will be suggestions for Test, HGH, etc. But in the area of endurance performance, nothing comes close to EPO.

I think the problem with epo for all us regular athletes is not having access or money to test hct on a regular basis. I know that Armstrong and Hamilton both said they took micro doses of epo, I would love to know what a micro dose of epo for them was and if it would necessitate regular blood draws for us non-pro's.
EQ is supposed to increase RBC's but again you run into the long detection period, not an issue for us non-tested athletes.

So even at 100mg/week you've noticed water retention?

 

[Onabull]

I think the problem with epo for all us regular athletes is not having access or money to test hct on a regular basis. I know that Armstrong and Hamilton both said they took micro doses of epo, I would love to know what a micro dose of epo for them was and if it would necessitate regular blood draws for us non-pro's.
EQ is supposed to increase RBC's but again you run into the long detection period, not an issue for us non-tested athletes.

So even at 100mg/week you've noticed water retention?

You're right. You have to test HCT weekly at a minimum. You really have to learn to do it yourself, with a zipocrit, etc. As far as getting the EPO, yes, it is hard. I knew of a vetted domestic source as of last year, but that has dried up. And I just don't trust a Chinese source.

There's also the issue of iron, which is a real pain. You have to load lots of it for the EPO to work. Then if you stop using it and don't do a blood draw, the iron gets emptied back out into the remaining blood cells when HCT goes down, and that isn't healthy.

EPO is so much easier to do if you aren't getting tested, for example load 3-4 weeks then maintain with a shot once or twice a week. Of course you would test positive that way now for at least a few days if you were tested.

Yes, I gained about 5 lbs of water weight on 100 mg/wk of test E. My test levels were low, so I qualified for TRT. I don't know if the low t was from heavy training, genetics, or age. I also had low bone density. I continue because of health concerns. But that is the only reason.

 

[luis31]

You can try fg 4592 to increase your endurance
FG-4592, a first-in-class oral compound in late stage development for the treatment of anaemia
https://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02174731

 

[Frik]

Dear all

I hope it's okay that I re-start this thread, as I'm looking for inputs for how to improve my endurance as a triathlete. Any good inputs for me on this matter in relation to above?

Rocks Off: How did your program went?
Thanks for your help.

 

[Millard]

Telmisartan and meldonium are two rarely discussed drugs that cyclists have been using (for years). Telmisartan is cheap and readily available everywhere particularly in Europe. Not familiar with meldonium availability. They are not on the WADA Prohibited List but their use has prompted WADA to add them to its monitoring program in 2015.

 

[Millard]

Just looked into meldonium again. WADA just added it to the 2016 prohibited list last week. Athletes testing positive for meldonium will be penalized beginning on January 1, 2016.

 

[Big_paul]

For indurance athletes mass is not your friend.

I would look at Lance Armstrong for that question.

I believe test an epo were worked well for him. He wasn't pumping iron though.

It must be sport specific. 200mg and get on your bike.

 

[Frik]

Thanks for your inputs.

Does anyone have experience with meldonium and/or Telmisartan in connection with endurance events?
And how should one use these products? Can they be combined? And should they be used in the weeks leading up to a competition (like EPO) and/or just throughout the year in connection with training?

Big_paul: I agree with you in regards to mass. Good point.
I regard EPO as to risky, and I do not know which brands to buy to be able to pass doping test (I have heard that some EPO can be detected up to several weeks, but don't know if thats true)

However, I think I will try 40 mg Andriol caupsels (2-3 per week) to increase resitution and build up. If I stop with Andriol one week prior to a competetion, I think I should be safe-home in relation to an eventual doping control, don't you think?

As an age-grouper, I'm not subject to doping control throughout the year - only in relation to competitions, so I can build up and prep with some products without risk of someone knocking at my door.

 

[Millard]

And how should one use these products? Can they be combined? And should they be used in the weeks leading up to a competition (like EPO) and/or just throughout the year in connection with training?

For performance-enhancing purposes, I've seen recommended dosages of 80-160mg/day for telmisartan and 1000-2000mg/day for meldonium in divided dosages.

Here's information (including the results of a double-blind study) from the main Latvian pharmaceutical manufacturer of Mildronate:

http://www.grindeks.lv/en/products/prescription-medicine/grindeks-brand-products/mildronate

Another Latvian pharmaceutical company that makes a generic meldonium product explicitly promotes it as a PED. They even prominently sponsor strongman contests.

http://meldoniumolainfarm.lv/?valoda=en

 

[Frik]

Millard Baker: Thanks for your support and info.
Have you heard of any risks in using both Telmisartan and Mildronate and the same time? I assume both should be taken in preparation in the weeks leading up to a competition/race.

In regards to Armstrong, I know he also used Cortisone.
It was also a very popular drug for Michael Rasmussen (his bok "yellow fewer" is really interesting reading in relation to PED's). I'm, however, at little in doubt about how to use Cortisone: which products (creame, pills etc.), when to use prior to competition, how much and how to avoid testing positive.
Do you have any experience or inputs in regards to Cortisone?