MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Pheezer's Hcg protocal? Einstein's Hcg...? Swale's hcg...? VDC's Hcg...?
- Thread starter Biggriz
- Start date
joe shmoe
New Member
i dont know how many response you'll get for the very reason you stated...there is more than one protocol for this. and the thing is, everyones protocol has worked for them...and for others.
bottom line, which i think all would agree upon, is the fact that you should use hCG ATLEAST at the end.
have a nice day
bottom line, which i think all would agree upon, is the fact that you should use hCG ATLEAST at the end.
have a nice day
einstein1905
New Member
I agree. There is no "wrong" protocol, other than overlapping HCG with clomid (for any appreciable length of time). The only difference with my idea is that it's more streamlined. A homerun is a homerun, no matter if it just clears the fence or clears it by 200'. The overuse (IMO) of HCG has no additional benefits. I'd argue that, if anything, it has potential for desensitization. using HCG in a manner that is just enough to regain size in a timely fashion is perfect IMO.
Although HCG is very important, especially with longer cycles, the subsequent use of at least clomid and a low dose AI are more important. Too little credit is given to an AI at this point in a cycle. I also advocate the addition of nolva too, so the lipid argument due to too much estrogen suppression is not really applicable, especially when one considers that an AI will greatly reduce the aromatization of what little test is endogenously being synthesized during pct AND the reduction in SHBG because of this, which will greatly increase bioavailable test during the time when it's most needed.
Although HCG is very important, especially with longer cycles, the subsequent use of at least clomid and a low dose AI are more important. Too little credit is given to an AI at this point in a cycle. I also advocate the addition of nolva too, so the lipid argument due to too much estrogen suppression is not really applicable, especially when one considers that an AI will greatly reduce the aromatization of what little test is endogenously being synthesized during pct AND the reduction in SHBG because of this, which will greatly increase bioavailable test during the time when it's most needed.
PDP
New Member
IMHO in shorter cycles it is not really needed.
In longer cycles I would suggest a midcycle period of use and one at the end prior to PCT. I advocate more frequent lower doses to avoid Leydig cell damage.
I would not suggest an AI if there is no XO aromatizing agents present. After all the goal is endocrine homeostasis which cannot truly be achieved with inhibited estrogen levels IMHO. Although androgenic activity may return, the potential of an inhibitory relapse when estrogen pops back on line is not worth it in my estimation.
In longer cycles I would suggest a midcycle period of use and one at the end prior to PCT. I advocate more frequent lower doses to avoid Leydig cell damage.
I would not suggest an AI if there is no XO aromatizing agents present. After all the goal is endocrine homeostasis which cannot truly be achieved with inhibited estrogen levels IMHO. Although androgenic activity may return, the potential of an inhibitory relapse when estrogen pops back on line is not worth it in my estimation.
einstein1905
New Member
PDP said:
During pct there always is aromatizing agents present......your endogenous test. The endogenous test you are producing is just as susceptible to aromatization as exogenous AAS. However, due to the small quantities present, it is vital that you limit the rate of aromatization of the little test that is being synthesized.....additionally, by reducing SHBG at this critical stage, you magnify the effects of the little test that is produced. The short period of AI use is nothing but beneficial and further increases LH and FSH due to less estrogen being available for negative feedback at the hypothalamus.
einstein1905
New Member
Estrogen merely returns back to physiological levels, with possibly a very slight rise, after the cessation of the AI, thus removing the competitive inhibition of aromatase. However, you've now greatly enhanced the rate at which you achieve optimal levels of endogenous bioavailable test.....and you did so during the time when expediting the process was most crucial.PDP said:
Also, actually incorporating a clomid/nolva/AI pct speaks for itself.......I've yet to hear of anyone having less than favorable results. If it were all just theory, I wouldn't be so confident, but it is extremely effective in practice as well.
PDP
New Member
Einstein, this has been debated. Estrogen is not the only inhibitory agent. Androgens, including DHT, are clearly inhibitory. Introducing an artificially low level of estrogen, and hence an artificially high level of androgen (relative to homeostatic levels given the recovery conditions) is not conducive to full HTPA recovery. Although aromatization of testosterone is not the only source of estrogen in the male body, extremely low levels of estrogen are not conducive to recovery of endogenous testosterone production due to the fact that GnRH receptors require estrogen so as to not down-regulate. If GnRH receptor concentration is low, LH production will be negatively impacted.
Again, the use of Arim or any other AI _IS_ beneficial but only while there exists supra-physiological levels of androgens. This usually lasts from 2-4 weeks after the last injection of long ester androgens. After that point the use of an AI is counterproductive.
The following is an illustration of my general recovery plan from say a 12 week cycle of moderate androgens.
Week 1- 17: AI
Week 12: Last injection of long acting androgen i.e. cyp
Week 12 -15: Exit Load - use of fast acting AAS i.e. prop
Week 12 14: HCG 1000iu EOD
Week 15 17: Intake of test powder dissolved in oil for lymphatic absorption (i.e. Andriol) morning only (mimic circadian test spike, reduction in catabolism, minimal effect on recovery)
Week 15 20: Nolv/Clo use with NO frontload.
If the subject is serious (and rich) then I would suggest an HGH and slin recovery strategy with injectable ATP etc. However I would then structure the protocol far differently.
You mention that there have been no negative reports when combing nolv/clo/arim. Well I have some for you. Do not run nolv/clo/arim all the way through recovery then drop them, this will yield poor results. With all due respect, PCT is much more complex than this, as Im sure you are well aware.
Again, the use of Arim or any other AI _IS_ beneficial but only while there exists supra-physiological levels of androgens. This usually lasts from 2-4 weeks after the last injection of long ester androgens. After that point the use of an AI is counterproductive.
The following is an illustration of my general recovery plan from say a 12 week cycle of moderate androgens.
Week 1- 17: AI
Week 12: Last injection of long acting androgen i.e. cyp
Week 12 -15: Exit Load - use of fast acting AAS i.e. prop
Week 12 14: HCG 1000iu EOD
Week 15 17: Intake of test powder dissolved in oil for lymphatic absorption (i.e. Andriol) morning only (mimic circadian test spike, reduction in catabolism, minimal effect on recovery)
Week 15 20: Nolv/Clo use with NO frontload.
If the subject is serious (and rich) then I would suggest an HGH and slin recovery strategy with injectable ATP etc. However I would then structure the protocol far differently.
You mention that there have been no negative reports when combing nolv/clo/arim. Well I have some for you. Do not run nolv/clo/arim all the way through recovery then drop them, this will yield poor results. With all due respect, PCT is much more complex than this, as Im sure you are well aware.
einstein1905
New Member
PDP said:
You're not considering that coming into pct you're maintaining supraphysiological levels of estrogen already, due to your cycle, so using an AI at this stage merely limits the aromatization of the newly synthesized test. You're also correct in stating that test aromatization isn't the only source of estrogen, which supports my claims.
androgens certainly do have an inhibitory effect on HPTA, but only in supraphysiological levels......these are the levels you are trying to reach....or close to them. Coming off of a cycle after waiting the appropriate active lives for exo androgens to be negligible, the amount of androgens prsent are minimal, so raising those levels as fast as possible is the goal.....you won't reach levels so high as to inhibit HPTA....you're merely getting back to normal physiological levels.
Also, clomid/nolva/AI is fine to be stopped all at once, however I continue nolva one week past the other two.
I'm not sure if you're basing your anti AI stuff on the studies done in males to increase gonadotropins, but we're not comparable to them in that we come into the situation with elevated estrogen levels already
PDP
New Member
We gave Biggriz what he wanted, LOL. Let's agree to disagree on this one.
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