Please help me shorten my workouts

[Pericles]

You have provided some good advice, Pericles. But I must take exception to the 'one body part per week' rule. It’s only one approach to muscular hypertrophy and not necessarily the best for most people's goals.

Of course, I am partial to HST and have trained mostly with some variation of it for over a decade. It has been very effective at helping me achieve my strength, performance and, of course, physique goals.

Pro bodybuilders may train differently.

I have never had any interest at becoming a competitive bodybuilder or any type of physique competitor. But neither do most people.

Having said that, I have probably still made more progress towards that end on HST than most of the equally dedicated trainers I have seen religiously following the one body part per week rule

A few things: Yes, there is individual differences that may create differences in volume training capacity. Arnold and Ronny hit a bp twice a week during contest prep. But they are hardly similar to most people.

It should also be mentioned, that contest prep, or even just improving condition for the beach are reasons for more frequent training. I did 4 on one off. I was also doing 2 a days, and close to 14 hours of cardio a week. Total training was more than 3.5 hours a day.

Of course I was on about 2.5 grams of gear. Even with gear, it would eventually catch up w/ me. 10 weeks was the max.

Some cite a muscle recovering w/ in 72 hours. True, but we are not understanding the whole picture. The muscle may recover, but the whole body is taxed, for example cortisol levels become high from over training. Cortisol forces protein out of the muscle. A misunderstood advantage of gear is that it suppresses over training induced muscle wasting.

One last thing, to be honest, my workouts often go over an hour, my leg routine is 1.5 hours, for example. I also do a lot of cardio.

 

[raysugar1234]

Lets break this topic down, and unpack it.

The first question is: When do muscles grow, get bigger and stronger?

Is it while training? No, the training is the stimulation to grow. Growth occurs when we are resting/sleeping/eating. Once a muscle is properly stimulated, further stimulation will harm your ability to grow.

Mike Mentzer used this philosophy to formulate his heavy duty program. It called for sufficient warm up, and then one all out set (drop sets, forced reps, rest pause etc). Dorian (Yates) modified Mentzers program to be 2 all out sets. Keep in mind, that sufficient intensity is rarely seen. Guys think/claim they are training hard, but are mistaken.

Lets return to the hypothetical back workout I do (a modification of Dorians'), and compare it to the OP's.

I rotate my arms in circles to warm them up. I then use the seated row machine w/ a chest pad. I do so to make sure that I do not involve my spinal erectors, they get hit fully on leg day.

I start w/ 2 plates each side (4 total) and close my eyes, focusing my mental energy on the upper back muscles....I do this for every set). I get an easy 15 reps, pulling from my elbows. I then ad a plate to each side, for 14 reps, having to work a bit for the last 2-3 reps.

In between each set I stretch the area being trained. Next, I bump up to 4 plates on each side. I close my eyes, refocus, and do 12 reps. The first 8 are fairly easy, the next 2 are hard, and the last 2 brutal. I use rest pause to get the last 2 reps, as they are the ones that make the difference. That is 1 working set, I then do 2 more wide, and 3 narrow grip. That is 3 working sets each for back thickness. Any more will make the muscles weaker, not stronger. I explode up, and control on the way down, as more than half of all gains come from the negative portion of the rep.

I then go to a wide grip lat pulldown, starting w/ one set of 12 reps at 220 and then I do 3 more all out sets at 240 lbs. When I was younger I could do 14 reps@300. Again, the important mental connection is made, I squeeze on the way down, and control on the way up.

I finish back w/ 3 sets or narrow grip pull-downs. That is a total of 12 working sets for back.

I then work traps. I use the seated shrug machine, using 6 45 pound plates and two 35 lbs plates. I would go heavier, but there would be too much stress placed on the lower back. I get 18 reps on seated shrugs, then getting up, turning around and getting 12 more standing. I do a total of 3/6 sets.

I then do bent over dumbell laterals w/ 45 lbs. It is important to get the stress placed on the rear shoulders, not the traps or back. I do 3 sets, w/ the 45s, then the last is a drop set, going immediately from the 45 to a 30.

Finally, I do a rotator cuff strengthening exercise, and that is it.

This^ program is what I run while on cycle. Off, or if just on trt I will cut volume down 20 % which means that most working sets are 2, instead of 3.

Do you ever include pullups or bent rows in your back routine or do you prefer to use only machines to work your back?

 

[Pericles]

Do you ever include pullups or bent rows in your back routine or do you prefer to use only machines to work your back?

I used to, but doing so would work my spinal erectors. Spinal erectors take longer to recover than any other muscle. When I was younger/competing, and was on a large amount of gear, I could get away with hitting hem so frequently.

Now, I do all chest pad work when hitting the thickness components on my back. I want those muscles isolated from my spinal erectors. And yes, I use pretty much all machines. However, I still use a pretty freakish amount of weight. I went up to 10 45 lb plates on the rowing machine (5 on each side and get 11-12 reps, up from what I was doing before) just went off gear, but am retaining strength.

I did pull ups for 25 years, but at 231 lbs I can barely get 6-8 reps. I stay over 10 reps for pretty much everything now. I concentrate on feel, when doing pull ups, I don't "feel," I am just trying to get the rep.

For you younger guys, however, I still recommend pull ups.

 

[raysugar1234]

I used to, but doing so would work my spinal erectors. Spinal erectors take longer to recover than any other muscle. When I was younger/competing, and was on a large amount of gear, I could get away with hitting hem so frequently.

Now, I do all chest pad work when hitting the thickness components on my back. I want those muscles isolated from my spinal erectors. And yes, I use pretty much all machines. However, I still use a pretty freakish amount of weight. I went up to 10 45 lb plates on the rowing machine (5 on each side and get 11-12 reps, up from what I was doing before) just went off gear, but am retaining strength.

I did pull ups for 25 years, but at 231 lbs I can barely get 6-8 reps. I stay over 10 reps for pretty much everything now. I concentrate on feel, when doing pull ups, I don't "feel," I am just trying to get the rep.

For you younger guys, however, I still recommend pull ups.

Interesting, I guess when you get older your training changes and things start to catch up with you.

 

[ApeShitFuckJacked]

I used to, but doing so would work my spinal erectors. Spinal erectors take longer to recover than any other muscle. When I was younger/competing, and was on a large amount of gear, I could get away with hitting hem so frequently.

Now, I do all chest pad work when hitting the thickness components on my back. I want those muscles isolated from my spinal erectors. And yes, I use pretty much all machines. However, I still use a pretty freakish amount of weight. I went up to 10 45 lb plates on the rowing machine (5 on each side and get 11-12 reps, up from what I was doing before) just went off gear, but am retaining strength.

I did pull ups for 25 years, but at 231 lbs I can barely get 6-8 reps. I stay over 10 reps for pretty much everything now. I concentrate on feel, when doing pull ups, I don't "feel," I am just trying to get the rep.

For you younger guys, however, I still recommend pull ups.

If your a serious bodybuilder (Pericles) using machines for certain exercises is the best option for the reasons he's stated. If your not a pro BB then I would advise against the use of machines. Your functional strength will be significantly greater through training that requires you to create the platform with your body from which the weight must move.

IMO using machines is liking adding Sq footage to your house without adding any square footage to your foundation. Its going to fall over once a storm hits.

 

[ApeShitFuckJacked]

I would suggest swapping rear delts and biceps on their respective days
ie: u now have back and biceps and shoulders rear delts

Right now my back and biceps looks like this in order (all is until failure) all reps have an emphasis on slow eccentric movement and explosive concentric movement.

Bent over barbell row 4x6
Standing Barbell shrugs 3x15
4 sets of pull ups 2 wide 1 close and 1 underhand
Dumbell Back fly 6/8/10/12
Standing supination curls 6/8/10
Lat pull down 3x6

I take about 2 minutes rest in between each set I'm usually in the gym for 1.5 hours. Best program I've made personally. I also fuck around with isometric holds and adjusting angles of movement.

 

[raysugar1234]

If your a serious bodybuilder (Pericles) using machines for certain exercises is the best option for the reasons he's stated. If your not a pro BB then I would advise against the use of machines. Your functional strength will be significantly greater through training that requires you to create the platform with your body from which the weight must move.

IMO using machines is liking adding Sq footage to your house without adding any square footage to your foundation. Its going to fall over once a storm hits.

Yeah I dont use any machines except for the rope tricep pushdowns and machine curls sometimes. I have a powerrack with the lat attachment but only use it for arms. Do you prefer the rear delt fly's lying on a incline bench or just bent over and standing? Just curious, personally I like them lying on the incline bench.

 

[ApeShitFuckJacked]

The only machines I use are lat pull downs leg press and cables for crossovers and angled lateral raises. So I usually have one machine workout per split.

 

[ApeShitFuckJacked]

Yeah I dont use any machines except for the rope tricep pushdowns and machine curls sometimes. I have a powerrack with the lat attachment but only use it for arms. Do you prefer the rear delt fly's lying on a incline bench or just bent over and standing? Just curious, personally I like them lying on the incline bench.

For rear delt flys I bend at the waist to about 90 probably slightly higher. I try to engage my core and stabilizers in everything. I actually don't do core workouts hardly ever and I consider it to be one of the stronger parts of my body.

 

[raysugar1234]

The only machines I use are lat pull downs leg press and cables for crossovers and angled lateral raises. So I usually have one machine workout per split.

Yeah I would like to get a Leg press machine that holds olympic weights. If one turns up on craigslist cheap it's going in my basement! 700 seems to be the cheapest you can get a decent one new. It would be nice to find some weekend warrior who bought one for a new year's resolution and it's collecting dust..

 

[ApeShitFuckJacked]

I probably look like a fucking idiot doing those but I stopped giving a shit about what people thought of me a long time ago. Funny thing is more people start to like u..maybe even too many

On that note I also invented what I believe to be an extremely effective, alternative way to perform reps. It builds explosiveness, power, control and induces a huge amount of hypertrophy.

WARNING PEOPLE WILL STARE;

It can be used on almost everything. Begin the eccentric movement, slow to a stop 3/4 of the way down, then explode letting the momentum carry the bar upwards back to approximately 1/4 of the decent (the important part here is that u DO NOT hit lockout as we are trying to simultaneously increase time under tension and CNS ability to generate explosive power) finish the eccentric movement and again explode from the bottom letting the momentum u generated initially do all the work back to 3/4, again lower to 1/4 ascent and explode to lockout. All of the eccentric portions should be slow and deliberate..I usually use a full 2 second count on each.

Essentially it looks like you are moving up and down a ladder at different rungs.
I tend to call them ladder reps and so do the guys at my gym that use them now it's really helped me develop strength and control while still inducing a large amount of hypertrophy.

ANOTHER WARNING:

You will only get half the reps you normally do. This is totally okay they are extremely tiring especially if done right. Always emphasize control as well this is key.

 

[ApeShitFuckJacked]

Yeah I would like to get a Leg press machine that holds olympic weights. If one turns up on craigslist cheap it's going in my basement! 700 seems to be the cheapest you can get a decent one new. It would be nice to find some weekend warrior who bought one for a new year's resolution and it's collecting dust..

yeah just offer him several boxes of donuts and boom, you've got yourself a leg press machine

 

[Pericles]

If your a serious bodybuilder (Pericles) using machines for certain exercises is the best option for the reasons he's stated. If your not a pro BB then I would advise against the use of machines. Your functional strength will be significantly greater through training that requires you to create the platform with your body from which the weight must move.

IMO using machines is liking adding Sq footage to your house without adding any square footage to your foundation. Its going to fall over once a storm hits.

I am not going to be too hard on you, but you are 100% wrong. That^ advice is good for new guys, and guys w/ less than 10 years of training.

I have been training for 37 years. I trained heavy basic (power bodybuilding) using 85% free weights for 32 years. I am pretty sure that I have a good foundation. Currently, I start my leg workout w/ deadlifts, and then straight leg deadlifts. I then do lunges. I then do leg curls. After my last shoulder surgery, I can no longer get my hand back to the bar for squats, so I use a machine that simulates squats. I then do leg presses and extensions. By your logic, I get nothing from presses, curls, machine squat, or extensions. Of course that is totally incorrect.

I am currently working/training w/ an IFBB pro. By your logic, we should not train together since he is a pro and I am not. By your logic he should be the only one using machines. Of course that is ridiculous.

He is 39, has been training since he was 6. Like me (but w/ 50 lbs of more muscle) he uses more machines as he gets older. He also does high rep (20) training. You would expect less weight, but he gets 20 reps of 135 on the barbell. I train in the 10-15 rep zone

It is true that using heavy basic free weight on compound movements activates more ancillary muscles. Just keep in mind that I trained that way for many, many years. If I kept training that way I would need joint replacements.

However, I train in 5 different martial arts (not counting gun training). That type of training hits all of my ancillary muscles, more so than even free weights. When I am in the gym, I target hitting very specific muscle groups. On the mat, in the ring I work coordination and over all athletic ability.

 

[ApeShitFuckJacked]

I am not going to be too hard on you, but you are 100% wrong. That^ advice is good for new guys, and guys w/ less than 10 years of training.

I have been training for 37 years. I trained heavy basic (power bodybuilding) using 85% free weights for 32 years. I am pretty sure that I have a good foundation. Currently, I start my leg workout w/ deadlifts, and then straight leg deadlifts. I then do lunges. I then do leg curls. After my last shoulder surgery, I can no longer get my hand back to the bar for squats, so I use a machine that simulates squats. I then do leg presses and extensions. By your logic, I get nothing from presses, curls, machine squat, or extensions. Of course that is totally incorrect.

I am currently working/training w/ an IFBB pro. By your logic, we should not train together since he is a pro and I am not. By your logic he should be the only one using machines. Of course that is ridiculous.

He is 39, has been training since he was 6. Like me (but w/ 50 lbs of more muscle) he uses more machines as he gets older. He also does high rep (20) training. You would expect less weight, but he gets 20 reps of 135 on the barbell. I train in the 10-15 rep zone

It is true that using heavy basic free weight on compound movements activates more ancillary muscles. Just keep in mind that I trained that way for many, many years. If I kept training that way I would need joint replacements.

However, I train in 5 different martial arts (not counting gun training). That type of training hits all of my ancillary muscles, more so than even free weights. When I am in the gym, I target hitting very specific muscle groups. On the mat, in the ring I work coordination and over all athletic ability.

Actually im 100% correct. I never said you would not recieven any benefit from machines only that your ancillary muscle and CNS development will be greatly reduced causing long term problems if they are too heavily relied on (assuming you are not supplementing with MMA Yoga etc)

You agreed with everything that I said regarding ancillary muscles. This was really my ONLY point to the whole post. If someone were to only train machines but supplement it with martial arts and yoga they are still getting that ancillary training and will be able to function properly with their newly acquired muscle.

I think you may have also missed my analogy a little but like I said I was just reinforcing the idea that you need to train your cns and ancillary muscle just as much as your superficial muscle. Which you clearly have been doing so I'm sure you are athletic as all hell. Good job man.

I think we have the same exact thinking you just applied my statement as if i were stating free weights are the only way to recieve ancillary and CNS training.

If I ever hit your weight class we should go at it. PM me if your interested I have a passion for MMA as well.

 

[Pericles]

By CNS, do you mean Central Nervous System?" And did you really mean this: "cns and ancillary muscle just as much as your superficial muscle". What are "superficial muscles?

Only free weights stimulate the CNS? So if I have 900 pounds on a leg press and crank out a brutal set on 10, my CNS is unaffected? I like you, but that claim is absolutely nonsensical.

:

 

[ApeShitFuckJacked]

By CNS, do you mean Central Nervous System?" And did you really mean this: "cns and ancillary muscle just as much as your superficial muscle". What are "superficial muscles?

Only free weights stimulate the CNS? So if I have 900 pounds on a leg press and crank out a brutal set on 10, my CNS is unaffected? I like you, but that claim is absolutely nonsensical.

:

Yes I do mean central nervous system and no your central nervous system is stimulated in every single movement you perform. (Even typing this I am stimulating it) so yes that would be nonsensical. My point is this, your ability to recruit maximum amount of muscle fibers through your cns does not neccesarily receive a large proportional benefit from one exercise to the next. Ie if you leg press you are training cns to leg press. If you squat you are training cns to squat. Basically your brain is training to send a signal through a certain group of neuroelectronic pathways simultaneously and this varys from exercise to exercise. Here's a functional example.

You can try this one at home kids

Pat your head 10 times
Stop
Now rub your stomach counterclockwise with your right hand for 10 rotations
Stop
Jump 10 times
Stop
Blink 10 times
Stop

Now complete all of the above simultaneously

No matter how many times you do each movement separately it will not really help all that much simultaneously

So how does this relate to leg press versus squat. Well the squat is a functional primal movement that is used everyday and in most sports. The leg press sadly is not. I cant think of any instance in a sport or daily life where you are laying on your back and moving a stimuli that is stabilized of it own accord. It is definetley good for inducing targeted hypertrophy though!!!

 

[ApeShitFuckJacked]

Oh and superficial muscle simply has to do with the location of the muscle in relation to the skin vs the bone

Superficial
Intermediate
Deep
In between these there are muscle fascia.
Most machines will not recruit deep muscle, your main stabilizers.

 

[ApeShitFuckJacked]

Also u did not complete my example correctly unless every one of the reps were done in unison at the same speed. I've tried doing it to show people lol and it's near impossible to perform one pat one full rotation one blink and one jump starting and ending at the same time repeated in a succession of 10.

I think only Jesus may be able to do it.