Primo / Mast as Estrogen Control

[RzSco]

My estradiol is on the high side, 207 pmol/L on a range of 41 to 159.
Testosterone in the 2700 ng/dL range - using 500mg/week in 2 doses and a 25mg Asin along with each dose.
I'm without high E2 symptoms but if I stop using the Asin I get sensitive nipples.

I'd like to move away from using AI because my lipids are not great (not out of range, but right on the edge) and I know AI is bad for the lipids.

I've read that Primo and/or Mast can be used to reduce estrogen. So I was thinking, I can reduce my testosterone dose a bit, add some Primo and/or Mast, which will help to improve my lipids, reduce my estradiol levels, and maintain about the same level of anabolism.

1. Do the estradiol-reducing effects show up on blood work or are mast/primo more of a "symptomatic relief"?
2. Recommendations for ratios, dosages? No more than 3 mL of oil a week total, ideally 2mL.
3. Any purpose in using primo and mast together?
4. Is EQ also worth looking at for this kind of thing?

 

[Alphalfa]

1. Primo seems to reduce E2 levels for a lot of people, therefore acting as some kind of "AI".

Masteron does not decrease E2 levels but it seems that acts as a competitor for estrogen receptors, therefore acting like some kind of "SERM",
helping/masking with the E2 sides but getting the same E2 values on bloodwork.

2. It depends on the user, you can test several ratios and do bloodwork to check.
It is usually recommended to run more test than primo, but as maximum I would go 1:1 unless bloodwork proves you can increase Primo over that ratio.

3. Up to you, probably you will feel great with them unless you crash your E2 with the primo, and the grainy look you can achieve on low bf can be amazing.

4. Boldenone seems to "aromatize" or force the test aromatization to E1(weak estrogen regarding sides) rather than E2, so can work as well. But I would prefer Cypionate rather than Undecylenate ester, so you can make changes "quicker" in case something goes wrong. EQ(Bold Undec) has a extremely long half-life and unless you have experience with it, can give you a lot of trouble.

 

[RzSco]

Thanks for the detailed reply!

I shall start with 375 test and 225 primo and if it feels good I'll get bloods in 2 months, otherwise I'll adjust the ratios and/or add Mast.

Am I being too reductive by thinking I can perma-blast safely if all my blood markers, ECG, BP, etc are optimised?

 

[God&Gainz]

Thanks for the detailed reply!

I shall start with 375 test and 225 primo and if it feels good I'll get bloods in 2 months, otherwise I'll adjust the ratios and/or add Mast.

Am I being too reductive by thinking I can perma-blast safely if all my blood markers, ECG, BP, etc are optimised?

Yes time off is always necessary or at least drop dosages and actually cruise, the organs need a break.

 

[VenomYo]

do you guys think theres any additional value to adding boldenone cyp onto a high dose primo and mast cycle. Or would it be a pointless addition?

 

[Alphalfa]

Thanks for the detailed reply!

I shall start with 375 test and 225 primo and if it feels good I'll get bloods in 2 months, otherwise I'll adjust the ratios and/or add Mast.

Am I being too reductive by thinking I can perma-blast safely if all my blood markers, ECG, BP, etc are optimised?

Feel free to bloodwork after 4 weeks, plenty of time to get the Cyp and Enanth satured, and decide after bloodwork and feeling regarding E2.

 

[Rido]

I've read that Primo and/or Mast can be used to reduce estrogen. So I was thinking, I can reduce my testosterone dose a bit, add some Primo and/or Mast, which will help to improve my lipids, reduce my estradiol levels, and maintain about the same level of anabolism.

Technically keeping your e2 down would also affect lipids.

My lipids heavily improved when I went from 300 primo to 600 mast
E2 was 39 to 142

 

[T&H]

My estradiol is on the high side, 207 pmol/L on a range of 41 to 159.
Testosterone in the 2700 ng/dL range - using 500mg/week in 2 doses and a 25mg Asin along with each dose.
I'm without high E2 symptoms but if I stop using the Asin I get sensitive nipples.

I'd like to move away from using AI because my lipids are not great (not out of range, but right on the edge) and I know AI is bad for the lipids.

I've read that Primo and/or Mast can be used to reduce estrogen. So I was thinking, I can reduce my testosterone dose a bit, add some Primo and/or Mast, which will help to improve my lipids, reduce my estradiol levels, and maintain about the same level of anabolism.

1. Do the estradiol-reducing effects show up on blood work or are mast/primo more of a "symptomatic relief"?
2. Recommendations for ratios, dosages? No more than 3 mL of oil a week total, ideally 2mL.
3. Any purpose in using primo and mast together?
4. Is EQ also worth looking at for this kind of thing?

Had recent bloodwork, 300 test which was 1350 total test along with 500mg primo, no AI. Estrogen came back at 17, so it can indeed lower estrogen for some men.

I'd recommend what alphafla said, start a dose and get bloodwork to assess impact.

 

[Titan72]

Technically keeping your e2 down would also affect lipids.

My lipids heavily improved when I went from 300 primo to 600 mast
E2 was 39 to 142

Strange I read a lot that masteron has a bad impact on the lipids.?

 

[Rido]

Strange I read a lot that masteron has a bad impact on the lipids.?

Well same with lower e2.

 

[Alphalfa]

Strange I read a lot that masteron has a bad impact on the lipids.?

All AAS have some impact in lipids, one more than others at same dosage, but when blasting every single one will give lipids trouble.

 

[WannaBeBIG]

All AAS have some impact in lipids, one more than others at same dosage, but when blasting every single one will give lipids trouble.

Exactly and adding in a compound which affects lipids to control E2 will only make the lipid issue worse as E2 drops significantly anecdotally from primo. I’m currently taking 500 test and 700 Masteron and my E2 is staying in range with only 2mg Arimidex per week. It really depends on how your body responds and experimenting to find your perfect dose is something you end up needing to do but coming for advice is the best first move of course bloodwork being second.

Permablasting anything will hurt your lipids and your cardio system and strain other organs too. Cruising at a dose that maintains muscle is always worthwhile. For me that’s 150 test/week and if I’m feeling eager to grow more I’ll add in 100mg Masteron to the mix for short periods without too much harm to my lipid profile.

 

[demon]

Here is my experience on primo and it's estrogen lowering. 210mg Test is my TRT dosage. Had blood pulled after being on 210mg for 3 months and test came back at 1100. Estrogen was 27 with no AI or any other "add on's". I decided to add 200mg of primo to my TRT dosage. After 2 months my joints ached and popped. I overall wasn't feeling well. I had bloods pulled and my estrogen dropped down to 4. So I dropped the primo and will try to dial it in later this year....or maybe primo isn't even worth the hassle for me

 

[Type-IIx]

1. Primo seems to reduce E2 levels for a lot of people, therefore acting as some kind of "AI".

Masteron does not decrease E2 levels but it seems that acts as a competitor for estrogen receptors, therefore acting like some kind of "SERM",
helping/masking with the E2 sides but getting the same E2 values on bloodwork.

2. It depends on the user, you can test several ratios and do bloodwork to check.
It is usually recommended to run more test than primo, but as maximum I would go 1:1 unless bloodwork proves you can increase Primo over that ratio.

3. Up to you, probably you will feel great with them unless you crash your E2 with the primo, and the grainy look you can achieve on low bf can be amazing.

4. Boldenone seems to "aromatize" or force the test aromatization to E1(weak estrogen regarding sides) rather than E2, so can work as well. But I would prefer Cypionate rather than Undecylenate ester, so you can make changes "quicker" in case something goes wrong. EQ(Bold Undec) has a extremely long half-life and unless you have experience with it, can give you a lot of trouble.

Well crafted reply.

I would just make a minor adjustment: Mast does not competitively bind ER. Rather, it seems to reduce (markedly) the uptake of estradiol in breast tissue (and perhaps other cells). It was investigated and shown to have efficacy for gynecomastia in Japan.

Interestingly, it was less efficacious than epitiostanol (the non-methylated counterpart of Epistane), for which the mechanism proposed was that it functions at the target organ level rather than via the suppression of gonadotropin secretion. I suspect that Masteron functions similarly.

 

[Type-IIx]

All AAS have some impact in lipids, one more than others at same dosage, but when blasting every single one will give lipids trouble.

There is a notable exception: a drug by the name of Miotolon (Androfurazanol; Furazabol).

 

[RzSco]

Has anyone anecdotally experience low estrogen sides from taking too much mast? Obviously with a reasonable test base.

 

[Type-IIx]

Has anyone anecdotally experience low estrogen sides from taking too much mast? Obviously with a reasonable test base.

You'll see anecdotes to this effect. Do note you'll see anecdotes to this effect (claimed low estrogen sides) with every synthetic (non-testosterone) androgen under the sun, from EQ to Var.

Masteron, Primo, Epistane, and perhaps Madol, are the most plausible androgens that may actually induce low estrogen-like effects directly (only Primo I believe can actually lower serum estrogens, reflected on bloodwork).

When guys experience apparent or attributed low estrogen-like side effects with synthetic (non-testosterone) aromatizable androgens like Deca and EQ, it's because they aren't using a (as you put it, obvious) reasonable test base, and so are generally experiencing sub-normal estradiol because of insufficient dose.

 

[WannaBeBIG]

Haven’t been able to run bloodwork this blast but 500 test and 700 mast e hasn’t given me noticeable issues so far. Though I’m using half my usual AI dose just in case.

 

[RzSco]

Day 3 of 375 test 225 primo.

I am not sure this is as effective as 50mg exemestane per week for estrogen control.

I have gained a kilo or two (aka, water retention) and I've also had sensitive nipples and a general feeling of lethargy.

It also has terrible PIP even when the primo and test are mixed 50/50.

So far not so good, but it will take more time for steady state of primo and its metabolites to be certain.

 

[Rido]

Day 3 of 375 test 225 primo.

I am not sure this is as effective as 50mg exemestane per week for estrogen control.

I have gained a kilo or two (aka, water retention) and I've also had sensitive nipples and a general feeling of lethargy.

It also has terrible PIP even when the primo and test are mixed 50/50.

So far not so good, but it will take more time for steady state of primo and its metabolites to be certain.

You are on day 3? What kind enanthane or acetate?

if it's enanthate, Test isn't even Saturated in your system yet... Are you a heavy aromatizer? Who is your source?