Protein intake optimal levels

RodgerThat

New Member
so personally I've never been a fan of trying to drown myself in protien to build muscle, on cycle I eat about 230g of protien off cycle I eat about 180-190g of protien. I've never really had a basis of why I did that 40-50g increase on cycle it's just the number I felt best at (by best I mean optimal performance vs recovery) when I ate 300g of protein I had to to have my carbs 70g less to accommodate the extra calories and carbs are my fuel so I was stripping myself of my extra fuel in order to have that high of protein. Anyways this was a trail and error thing for me to find that number and it works for me but maybe not you. Anyways so my optimal I found to be 1.2g per lb on cycle and about .9g per lb off. Here's laynes new video on the subject which kinda peaked the idea of the thread.

 
I have a question for ya, I'm close to having enough evidence to support my theory that my body no longer tolerates beef products, and I'm having to switch up my diet again, as my psoriasis is flaring rapidly and I'm having fibromyalgia symptoms which I've never had before since eating a great deal of meat products despite vegetables to go with it.

what do you personally feel is the best substitute? I primarily like eating a Mediterranean diet, I've recently made SWAI fish/olive oil roughly 60% of my diet. I eat quite a bit of chicken, too.

Mainly, what do you think is a tasty option to replace beef with that can give some of the same nutrients? I'll be supplementing a lower dosed multivitamin to help fill the hole as well
 
I have a question for ya, I'm close to having enough evidence to support my theory that my body no longer tolerates beef products, and I'm having to switch up my diet again, as my psoriasis is flaring rapidly and I'm having fibromyalgia symptoms which I've never had before since eating a great deal of meat products despite vegetables to go with it.

what do you personally feel is the best substitute? I primarily like eating a Mediterranean diet, I've recently made SWAI fish/olive oil roughly 60% of my diet. I eat quite a bit of chicken, too.

Mainly, what do you think is a tasty option to replace beef with that can give some of the same nutrients? I'll be supplementing a lower dosed multivitamin to help fill the hole as well

I've always kind of looked at chicken thighs as the beef of the chicken world.

I really feel 1gr/lb of bodyweight is ideal off cycle. I think at least 1.5gr/lb is better on cycle. It seems some guys just don't need as much to grow. I've tried taking a minimalist approach to protein off cycle and the results were subpar.
 
I have a question for ya, I'm close to having enough evidence to support my theory that my body no longer tolerates beef products, and I'm having to switch up my diet again, as my psoriasis is flaring rapidly and I'm having fibromyalgia symptoms which I've never had before since eating a great deal of meat products despite vegetables to go with it.

what do you personally feel is the best substitute? I primarily like eating a Mediterranean diet, I've recently made SWAI fish/olive oil roughly 60% of my diet. I eat quite a bit of chicken, too.

Mainly, what do you think is a tasty option to replace beef with that can give some of the same nutrients? I'll be supplementing a lower dosed multivitamin to help fill the hole as well

See if you can handle lamb or bison both are good subs and very tasty. Ground turkey is good variation on ground beef and chicken thighs have lots of juice to them and don't tend to be as bland as breast.
 
I've always kind of looked at chicken thighs as the beef of the chicken world.

I really feel 1gr/lb of bodyweight is ideal off cycle. I think at least 1.5gr/lb is better on cycle. It seems some guys just don't need as much to grow. I've tried taking a minimalist approach to protein off cycle and the results were subpar.
I've gone as low as .6g per lb but that was during a keto cut and I was using a meter and found that any lower then that didn't produce any significant return for ketones but the higher I went in protien the less ketones present. 0.6g to 0.8g per lb was the sweet zone for me on keto (on cycle and off) i wouldn't go any lower then .8g off cycle anymore unless on keto but I don't go much higher either as I'd rather get my calories in tasty fats and carbs
 
Chicken thighs and legs are my go to for chicken. Breast, not so much. I love beef but due to being a fat ass and its high caloric values, it's a once a week thing for me.
 
I've gone as low as .6g per lb but that was during a keto cut and I was using a meter and found that any lower then that didn't produce any significant return for ketones but the higher I went in protien the less ketones present. 0.6g to 0.8g per lb was the sweet zone for me on keto (on cycle and off) i wouldn't go any lower then .8g off cycle anymore unless on keto but I don't go much higher either as I'd rather get my calories in tasty fats and carbs

Yeah with keto you kind of have to take the protein way down. I've never been able to get past the adjustment phase of ketosis. I do keep carbs lower during cutting phase just because it's the easiest macro for me to cut out it seems. I guess fat gets cut out pretty much an equal amount. When I'm bulking I don't track calories anymore. If I start feeling bloated I dial it back though. I seem to be sensitive with carbs.
 
I've always kind of looked at chicken thighs as the beef of the chicken world.

I really feel 1gr/lb of bodyweight is ideal off cycle. I think at least 1.5gr/lb is better on cycle. It seems some guys just don't need as much to grow. I've tried taking a minimalist approach to protein off cycle and the results were subpar.

I've always taken the minimalist approach to protein. I feel like it's been overhyped. I much rather binge on some carby/fatty food anyways. It's worked for me so why change it haha.
 
Chicken thighs and legs are my go to for chicken. Breast, not so much. I love beef but due to being a fat ass and its high caloric values, it's a once a week thing for me.

96% lean ground beef is 43g protein 0carb and 4.5 grams of fat per 8oz, that's pretty good imo


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Yeah, wish I could eat it but not anymore... something is wrong, IBS I've never had but I'm having the symptoms for weeks now, especially sick stomach/diarrhea... psoriasis I've had many years but not this kind of crazy flare up...skin has been red and inflamed, getting pins and needles feeling like fibromyalgia, pain everywhere in federal, tendonitis in my Achilles on the left side, right elbow and right wrist. quit eating it a few days ago and boom. Inflammation dying out fast. Nothing but fish, a little ice cream, lots of chicken, eggs, I see to tolerate bacon just fine too
 
I've gone as low as .6g per lb but that was during a keto cut and I was using a meter and found that any lower then that didn't produce any significant return for ketones but the higher I went in protien the less ketones present. 0.6g to 0.8g per lb was the sweet zone for me on keto (on cycle and off) i wouldn't go any lower then .8g off cycle anymore unless on keto but I don't go much higher either as I'd rather get my calories in tasty fats and carbs

I have to ask...why exactly are you placing a higher priority on ketosis vs optimal protein intake?
 
I have to ask...why exactly are you placing a higher priority on ketosis vs optimal protein intake?
If you are in ketosis then being deeper in ketosis makes your more muscle sparing and therfor you wouldn't need the higher protien intake for it to be optimal. High ketones with use my fat and if I'm in deep ketosis I always feel better the deeper in keto i so would only make sense to find what macro values put me in the deepest state
 
If you are in ketosis then being deeper in ketosis makes your more muscle sparing and therfor you wouldn't need the higher protien intake for it to be optimal. High ketones with use my fat and if I'm in deep ketosis I always feel better the deeper in keto i so would only make sense to find what macro values put me in the deepest state

How much do you think being "deeper in ketosis" is going to help an active person who participates in a glycolytic activity like, say, lifting?

Fat isn't the main fuel source utilized.
Your not getting enough carbs.
Your not consuming an optimal protein intake to make up for the lack of carbs.
So where do you think your body is going to go hunting to find some fuel?

Hopefully you can see the major flaw in thinking that being in ketosis is more muscle sparing than having an optimal protein intake. It isn't.
 
How much do you think being "deeper in ketosis" is going to help an active person who participates in a glycolytic activity like, say, lifting?

Fat isn't the main fuel source utilized.
Your not getting enough carbs.
Your not consuming an optimal protein intake to make up for the lack of carbs.
So where do you think your body is going to go hunting to find some fuel?

Hopefully you can see the major flaw in thinking that being in ketosis is more muscle sparing than having an optimal protein intake. It isn't.
Bud if you want to blow smoke go have a smoke. You don't understand what ketosis does for your body. You DO use fats as your primary fuel source and in TRUE ketosis you won't have any performance issues at all. Unlike low carb diets where you do have performance issues. Your knowledge on the subject is extremely limited it seems, I could educate you and point you to some good websites to do so if you'd like?
 
Bud if you want to blow smoke go have a smoke. You don't understand what ketosis does for your body. You DO use fats as your primary fuel source and in TRUE ketosis you won't have any performance issues at all. Unlike low carb diets where you do have performance issues. Your knowledge on the subject is extremely limited it seems, I could educate you and point you to some good websites to do so if you'd like?

Lol my knowledge is limited hmm...

You completely fail to understand the fact that though shifting to ketones/FFA for fuel does reduce the need for glucose, there is still a NEED for glucose for some activities which include resistance training.
Fat is not your primary fuel source during GLYCOLYTIC activities, you can increase the % as far using fat as a substrate but its never even going to come remotely close to 100%.

A dieting athlete lowering protein in order to be in ketosis is missing the forest for the trees because no matter how protein sparing ketosis may be, it is NOT as protein sparing as protein itself.

And no thanks, I'll politely decline your attempt to "educate me" since it's clear that you have no understanding of human physiology, biochem, etc so...you know...not in the best position to teach anyone anything on this topic :)
 
Quote from Lyle McDonald:

"However, invariably when people tried to apply the KR to low-carbohydrate fat loss diets, one of two things happened. If the person set calories appropriately and used the KR, the protein intake ended up being far too low (because dietary fat had to be so damn high). Alternately, if they set protein appropriately and tried to scale dietary fat to the proper ratio, the caloric intake ended up being too high.

The former was a poor choice from the standpoint of protein sparing; the second limited (or eliminated fat loss).

So basically I threw out the ketogenic ratio. As noted above, it’s crucial for the development of epilepsy treatment diets (anyone wanting more information on this topic should purchase the excellent The Ketogenic Diet: A Treatment for Epilepsy by Freeman, Freeman and Kelly.

But for dieters and folks seeking body recomposition, it made setting up appropriate diets impossible.

Additionally, there isn’t convincing evidence in my opinion that ketosis is crucial for the benefits of the diet. Yes, ketones are protein sparing but only when dietary protein intake is inadequate in the first place. When protein is set appropriately (e.g. 1-1.5 g/lb lean body mass as discussed in http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/the-protein-book), the development of ketosis isn’t that critical to spare protein. Simply, protein is the most protein sparing nutrient and other things (e.g. ketones vs. carbohydrates) only matter if protein is inadequate in the first place."
 
Lol my knowledge is limited hmm...

You completely fail to understand the fact that though shifting to ketones/FFA for fuel does reduce the need for glucose, there is still a NEED for glucose for some activities which include resistance training.
Fat is not your primary fuel source during GLYCOLYTIC activities, you can increase the % as far using fat as a substrate but its never even going to come remotely close to 100%.

A dieting athlete lowering protein in order to be in ketosis is missing the forest for the trees because no matter how protein sparing ketosis may be, it is NOT as protein sparing as protein itself.

And no thanks, I'll politely decline your attempt to "educate me" since it's clear that you have no understanding of human physiology, biochem, etc so...you know...not in the best position to teach anyone anything on this topic :)
I felt better at .6 to .8g per lb while in keto ate 1g of fat per 1lb of LBM and gained strength while POWERLIFTING my totals are lb for lb very good and I felt great had energy all day and was making progress in every form. Continue on though as there is no point to the discussion on this especially with you.

@Docd187123 as for your point if I'm eating 160g of protien 175g fats <20g carbs and losing weight while not feeling hungry or fatigued I believe it works. Is it ideal for most no not really but it's how I like to eat and works for me so I wouldn't say impossible by any feat of the imagination.
 
I find off cycle Im fine at 1g per pound of body weight and dont have to go any higher then 1.2 of cycle, I found thats what works best for me to maintain or grow
 
I felt better at .6 to .8g per lb while in keto ate 1g of fat per 1lb of LBM and gained strength while POWERLIFTING my totals are lb for lb very good and I felt great had energy all day and was making progress in every form. Continue on though as there is no point to the discussion on this especially with you.

@Docd187123 as for your point if I'm eating 160g of protien 175g fats <20g carbs and losing weight while not feeling hungry or fatigued I believe it works. Is it ideal for most no not really but it's how I like to eat and works for me so I wouldn't say impossible by any feat of the imagination.

I think you're missing the point. It's not that what you're doing CANT work, it's just that it's likely not the best way to go about it.

What RippedZilla is trying to point out is that even though you're in ketosis, the primary fuel for all glycolotic activities (which include lifting) is glucose. It doesn't matter that your in ketosis and the body has shifted to using ketones for energy bc that's for anaerobic metabolism which is low intensity activity. High intensity activity still requires glucose for glycolotic metabolism.

Carbs are 100% anti-ketogenic bc they get converted to glucose. Proteins are roughly 58% anti-ketogenic bc some amino acids can be converted to glucose. Fats are about 10% anti-ketogenic bc only the glycerol portion of triglycerides can be converted to glucose and this is why they make up the abundance of your calories on a ketogenic diet.

Now the issue comes down to your brain can on,y use glucose for energy. On a carb rich diet this is no problem bc you have sufficient carbs to power the brain and your glycolotic activity. On a keto diet, bc your carbs are so low, the liver is forced to produce glucose from stored liver glycogen but your brain requires roughly 100g of glucose a day to function and the liver only holds about 100-120g of glucose so it's basically only a day's supply. Your muscle glycogen is about another 500g of glucose but this cannot be used to fuel the brain bc the enzyme required to convert glycogen, glucose-6-phosphatase, isn't found in your muscles. So the muscle glycogen gets used to perform your glycolotic activities. But again, on a ketogenic diet your so low on carbs that this is only a temporary supply.

Now imagine taking in only 0.6g/lb protein. This is below the generally recommended amount for active/competitive gym-goers, especially a powerlifter. So you're either just barely getting enough protein or not getting enough right off the bat. Now imagine all the glycolotic activities you're doing i.e. lifting, high intensity conditioning work, prowler drags, etc etc. where does all the glucose needed to fuel this activity come from? Remember, you've already depleted your liver glycogen just to power your brain (liver glycogen balance is also a critical component to catabolism) as well as your muscle glycogen. Where else can you get glucose from? Can't be carbs bc you're at less than 50g/day and that's just not enough. The only remaining sources are the glycerol from fats and stored amino acids

Fats would be favored through beta oxidation reaction and then the Kreb's Cycle but again, only about 10% of them can be converted to sugar so assume about 200g of fat and 10% of that is 20g of fats that can be used to make glucose. Still not enough.

The next source of glucose is stored amino acids (muscle/catabolism) or the amino acids from your diet (protein). Amino acids can be converted to glucose through deamination to remove the NH3 molecule to create ammonia. The liver takes the ammonia and makes urea out of it which is a keto acid. This then can be converted to glucose via gluconeogenesis. Remember now, your protein intake is already too low or barely enough to get by and that's without tapping into your stored amino acids or dietary amino acids but you've just created an environment that's going to need to do exactly that. If you use dietary amino acids your body won't have enough to rebuild damaged muscle tissue and grow more. If you tap into stored amino acids (muscle tissue) then you won't have enough dietary amino acids to replace all of hats lost bc the intake is so low.

This whole issue can be swept aside simply by increasing protein intake to the minimum requirements of the body.

Sorry for the novel but I love topics like these :)
 
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