Recieved PARTIAL Lab Results Today. Is this Enough Info for Any Advice?

[TheOldFart]

Thanks so much for the insight. If you don't mind sharing, why did it take you 3 years to get your protocol down? I sure would love to learn from your experience. Did you not feel ANY better during those 3 years?

The diet is a work in progress, but it is progressing.

I have written a lot about my history here in the past, but let me try to summarize. I have only used gels and not injections. I started on 5gm of Androgel and applied it per the instructions. My total T was 305 (250-1100 at Quest) before starting TRT. I started to feel better after a month, but then slid back at 2 months. Symptoms were depression, ED, low libido and about a 30% loss of strength. I'll just talk total T here to keep it simple, but we monitored free T and E2 also, along with the normal things like lipids and CBC.

At 2 months, my T was 357 and I did feel a little better. My doc thought that I should be at least 500, so he upped my Androgel to 7.5 gm. Four months later my T was at 277 and I felt as bad as I had at the start. I asked him to switch me to Testim and he did, at a dose of 10gm. A few months later my T was 644 and then 862, but my E2 went up to the high end of the range at 862. I was applying to my shoulder, abdomen and thigh. Several months later I was back down to 348, but my E2 was in the middle of the range and I felt better than I had at 862.

About that time I read something written by Dr Crisler where he said that a dermatologist had told him that applying a gel right after a shower made it absorb better. I asked my dermatologist and he agreed. I realized, looking at the dates of the last 3 tests that the high levels were when I showered in the morning and applied the gel right after and the low reading was when I showered at night and applied the gel the next morning. I knew this because I shower in the morning on days when I have a doctor appointment, but shower in the evening any other time. Someone on this board (forget who) also said that they scrub the area with a loofah before application, so I tried that. The next test was over 1200, so we dropped the Testim dose in half. Since there was less to apply, I only did it on my shoulder. The next test was still over 1200, so we cut it to 1/2 tube - 2.5gm. That brought me down to the 800 range and my E2 back to around 30. It had been over 80 when at 1200. I an now using only 2 gm of Testim daily and applying right after scrubbing with a hot rough washcloth and then rubbing with a towel. This is the best that I have felt in the past 3+ years. My E2 is 25 and my T is about 600.

I'm 66 years old BTW and have no ED anymore, as evidenced by having sex with the wife last night and this morning with no help from Viagra.opcorn: By the way, I think that Dr Crisler also said that E2 is an indication of the proper T level for each person.

 

[GirlyMan]

Someone on this board (forget who) also said that they scrub the area with a loofah before application, so I tried that. The next test was over 1200, so we dropped the Testim dose in half.

Fuck the loofah. I shower in the AM and dose in the PM after abrading the shit out of the application area with a razor and metal-tipped bristle brush. And fuck the dropping of the dose too.

I'm 66 years old BTW and have no ED anymore, as evidenced by having sex with the wife last night and this morning with no help from Viagra.opcorn:

You dawg you.

By the way, I think that Dr Crisler also said that E2 is an indication of the proper T level for each person.

That is interesting. I don't recall seeing that in my time over there but it sounds right.

 

[jonkobeck]

I may try rubbing my shoulder with some fine sandpaper before applying the gel tomorrow

 

[zkt]

zkt:

You are GREAT. Is a SERM the same thing as an AI? On Monday, I am due for my next inject of 200mgs Test Cyp. which will put me back on my EOW schedule. I'm pretty much having an anxiety attack agonizing over whether or not to give myself the shot. I sent my doctor the following email (in bold), but unfortunately I have received no reply:

My concern is this:

I am due for my next 200mg Test Cyp injection this coming Monday, July 11 (which will put me back on the EOW schedule). Do you think that I should continue with this protocol, or should I change it? Some of the options that I would like to discuss with you are as follows:

Should I maybe start injecting 100-150 mgs EW as opposed to 200mgs EOW?
Should I start taking an anti-estrogen medication to reduce what appears to be extremely high levels of Estradiol?
Should I consider adding something to stimulate LH production? The only thing I'm aware of is hCG.
Is there a possibility, based on the values presented, that I could have a pituitary tumor? If so, is this serious and/or does it need to be treated ASAP?
FYI, I lost my libido and had ED problems WAY before I ever took any psych meds.

I had NO luck with any of the popular psych meds and combinations thereof."

Pituitary tumor ? Where did that idea come from? Not likely.
SERM:
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clomifene]Clomifene - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
I dont think the T dose will make much difference either way- the doses arent that dissimilar.
I dont see any Sx of high E other than reduced libido and that could have a myriad of causes.
Ask the Dr. to order an estradiol lab and lets wait and see what comes back befor jumping the gun on the E2 anf hcg.
The psych meds arent a factor since they have cleared out of your system in two months.
Why were you started on them? What was the Dx? Depression, bipolar? When did it start?
Your situation doesnt seem at all typical to me and I would like to understand it better. I think we need a more complete history. Ever tried Xanax or any of the other benzodiazepines ? What all drugs have you been on?


Read more from the MESO-Rx Steroid Forum at: https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134308835

 

[KTMguy]

The results are about what would be expected for a large dose of T. It shut down your pituitary output of LH/FSH and raised E and probably DHT as well. T lab will probably come back >1000.
How ya feeling?

What part of that blood test indicated LH & FSH? I want to make certain that I request these same tests.

Thanks.

 

[titleesq]

Pituitary tumor ? Where did that idea come from? Not likely.
SERM:
Clomifene - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I dont think the T dose will make much difference either way- the doses arent that dissimilar.
I dont see any Sx of high E other than reduced libido and that could have a myriad of causes.
Ask the Dr. to order an estradiol lab and lets wait and see what comes back befor jumping the gun on the E2 anf hcg.
The psych meds arent a factor since they have cleared out of your system in two months.
Why were you started on them? What was the Dx? Depression, bipolar? When did it start?
Your situation doesnt seem at all typical to me and I would like to understand it better. I think we need a more complete history. Ever tried Xanax or any of the other benzodiazepines ? What all drugs have you been on?


Read more from the MESO-Rx Steroid Forum at: https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134308835

zkt:

Once again, my gratitude for sticking with me and guiding me in the right direction. As far as symptoms of high E are concerned, during my research I have found that along with reduced libido, high E can also cause mood changes such as depression, apathy, irritability and aggression, as well as increase in weight, all of which I am currently suffering from. FYI, in case you didn't see it posted, my Estradiol level is 72, my LH is <0.2 mIU/mL, and my
FSH, is <0.7 mIU/mL.

I was referred to a psychiatrist by my therapist, and I was started on the psych meds in the hopes of treating my depression, but like I said, they did ZILCH as far as positive effects.

I am VERY curious to know why you feel that my particular case is not "typical". What red flags do you notice?

I am actually currently taking Xanax (1mg) every evening to aid in sleep (not that I really think it is working). About six years ago I was involved in a bad accident and was on opioid pain meds for quite some time. But it has been years since I have taken opiates.

As I was typing this I got a phone call from the doc. I suggested adding an AI and/or some hCG to the protocol, and she shut me down. Her response was that she wants me to continue with the Test Cyp EOW (so my next inject will be Monday), and that she doesn't want to "muck up the waters" (her words), by adding anything else at this time. It is her opinion that I continue on this course for awhile to see if everything "stabilizes". If it does not, then she will consider changing the protocol. In all honesty, I am SCARED SHITLESS to take that inject by itself. My biggest concern at the moment is that b/c of the high E levels, the majority of the T that I shoot will convert to E, leaving me with an even higher Estradiol level, and feeling way worse than I already do.

AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Thanks again zkt, and all others who have chimed in with advice.

 

[titleesq]

What part of that blood test indicated LH & FSH? I want to make certain that I request these same tests.

Thanks.

KTM:

I don't know about other labs, but at Quest the tests are just called LH and FSH respectively. Good luck and I hope that helps.

 

[CubbieBlue]

zkt:

Once again, my gratitude for sticking with me and guiding me in the right direction. As far as symptoms of high E are concerned, during my research I have found that along with reduced libido, high E can also cause mood changes such as depression, apathy, irritability and aggression, as well as increase in weight, all of which I am currently suffering from. FYI, in case you didn't see it posted, my Estradiol level is 72, my LH is <0.2 mIU/mL, and my
FSH, is <0.7 mIU/mL.

I was referred to a psychiatrist by my therapist, and I was started on the psych meds in the hopes of treating my depression, but like I said, they did ZILCH as far as positive effects.

I am VERY curious to know why you feel that my particular case is not "typical". What red flags do you notice?

I am actually currently taking Xanax (1mg) every evening to aid in sleep (not that I really think it is working). About six years ago I was involved in a bad accident and was on opioid pain meds for quite some time. But it has been years since I have taken opiates.

As I was typing this I got a phone call from the doc. I suggested adding an AI and/or some hCG to the protocol, and she shut me down. Her response was that she wants me to continue with the Test Cyp EOW (so my next inject will be Monday), and that she doesn't want to "muck up the waters" (her words), by adding anything else at this time. It is her opinion that I continue on this course for awhile to see if everything "stabilizes". If it does not, then she will consider changing the protocol. In all honesty, I am SCARED SHITLESS to take that inject by itself. My biggest concern at the moment is that b/c of the high E levels, the majority of the T that I shoot will convert to E, leaving me with an even higher Estradiol level, and feeling way worse than I already do.

AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Thanks again zkt, and all others who have chimed in with advice.

How long were you on opiates? I think you just found your root cause.

Watch the daily xanax. I've read some horror stories of subtle addictions that are almost impossible to kick.

 

[titleesq]

How long were you on opiates? I think you just found your root cause.

Watch the daily xanax. I've read some horror stories of subtle addictions that are almost impossible to kick.

Thanks Cub,

I would say that I was taking opiates for about 2 years, but haven't touched any in 4. From my research I have found that long term use of opiates can indeed be a cause for low T in certain men, but the research (what I read anyway), states that this condition should reverse itself at some point upon discontinuation.

Any thoughts?

 

[CubbieBlue]

Thanks Cub,

I would say that I was taking opiates for about 2 years, but haven't touched any in 4. From my research I have found that long term use of opiates can indeed be a cause for low T in certain men, but the research (what I read anyway), states that this condition should reverse itself at some point upon discontinuation.

Any thoughts?

The HPTA is weird. Sometimes it bounces back without aid, sometimes it doesn't. While on opiates you undoubtedly had some sort of hypogonadism. I think it is possible your low-ish ranges are still due to that.

 

[titleesq]

The HPTA is weird. Sometimes it bounces back without aid, sometimes it doesn't. While on opiates you undoubtedly had some sort of hypogonadism. I think it is possible your low-ish ranges are still due to that.

Once again, thanks for the insight Cub. If indeed my hypogonadism was caused by long term opiate abuse, then is it possible, with the right treatment of course, for me to get that straightened out without the need for lifetime trt?

I'm not sure if I'm being paranoid or not, but you made mention of my "low-ish" range. While I understand that there are many people much lower than me, I thought that Total T of 252 for a 38 year old was the equivalent T levels of a 100 year old. To me, that signifies LOW. Am I not correct in that assumption? Should I even me messing around with T supplementation if I'm only considered "low-ish"? Just a thought.

Thanks for all the guidance. I am very grateful Cub.

 

[CubbieBlue]

Once again, thanks for the insight Cub. If indeed my hypogonadism was caused by long term opiate abuse, then is it possible, with the right treatment of course, for me to get that straightened out without the need for lifetime trt?

I'm not sure if I'm being paranoid or not, but you made mention of my "low-ish" range. While I understand that there are many people much lower than me, I thought that Total T of 252 for a 38 year old was the equivalent T levels of a 100 year old. To me, that signifies LOW. Am I not correct in that assumption? Should I even me messing around with T supplementation if I'm only considered "low-ish"? Just a thought.

Thanks for all the guidance. I am very grateful Cub.

It's low by any lab metric. It is possible with repeat testing it may be higher though. Hard to say without seeing it.

Yes, it may be possible you can restore your natural levels with a course of SERMs (clomid). Do a search for "clomid restart" and "scally restart" and you can find out more about this. It might work, it might not. Up to you on what you want to try.

 

[titleesq]

Good Evening Board:

I really think that I must be losing some brain cells or something b/c I totally forgot that my mother in law's brother in law is an Endo in OH. Had a talk with him this afternoon and I decided that I am going to go against Drs. orders and inject 100mg EW as opposed to her suggested treatment plan of 200mg EOW. I have nothing to control E levels, and can't get anything in the foreseeable future, so hopefully this plan will stave off as much T from converting to E as possible. I spoke with him (the Endo) about the need for adding some hCG as well as adding an anti E, and he said not necessary. I know that he is an Endo, and this might sound kinda weird, but I kind of got the feeling that he was not as up to date on some of the trt protocols as a lot of members on here are. It was kind of a strange convo, but helped me to make a decision about the EW protocol.

Anyone familiar with LiquiDex 30mL 1mg/mL or it's manufacturer, Ar-r.com? Ar-r.com is a research company and LiquiDex is supposed to be an AI. Any suggestions on proper dosing protocol adding this to my 100mg Test Cyp EW?

Thanks to everyone for the sharing their experience and education........

 

[seeking]

the "liquidex" you are talking about sounds like a "grey market" product that is not regulated, many people use things like that with success, but it is not regulated and guaranteed as buying off a pharmacy would be

 

[seeking]

just because your endo was against hcg use, don't assume he isn't up to date, the use of hcg in hrt is still controversial and many "cutting edge" doctors don't believe it should be used in trt

 

[zkt]

zkt:

Once again, my gratitude for sticking with me and guiding me in the right direction. As far as symptoms of high E are concerned, during my research I have found that along with reduced libido, high E can also cause mood changes such as depression, apathy, irritability and aggression, as well as increase in weight, all of which I am currently suffering from. FYI, in case you didn't see it posted, my Estradiol level is 72, my LH is <0.2 mIU/mL, and my
FSH, is <0.7 mIU/mL.

I was referred to a psychiatrist by my therapist, and I was started on the psych meds in the hopes of treating my depression, but like I said, they did ZILCH as far as positive effects.

I am VERY curious to know why you feel that my particular case is not "typical". What red flags do you notice?

I am actually currently taking Xanax (1mg) every evening to aid in sleep (not that I really think it is working). About six years ago I was involved in a bad accident and was on opioid pain meds for quite some time. But it has been years since I have taken opiates.

As I was typing this I got a phone call from the doc. I suggested adding an AI and/or some hCG to the protocol, and she shut me down. Her response was that she wants me to continue with the Test Cyp EOW (so my next inject will be Monday), and that she doesn't want to "muck up the waters" (her words), by adding anything else at this time. It is her opinion that I continue on this course for awhile to see if everything "stabilizes". If it does not, then she will consider changing the protocol. In all honesty, I am SCARED SHITLESS to take that inject by itself. My biggest concern at the moment is that b/c of the high E levels, the majority of the T that I shoot will convert to E, leaving me with an even higher Estradiol level, and feeling way worse than I already do.

AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Thanks again zkt, and all others who have chimed in with advice.

Good Evening Board:

I really think that I must be losing some brain cells or something b/c I totally forgot that my mother in law's brother in law is an Endo in OH. Had a talk with him this afternoon and I decided that I am going to go against Drs. orders and inject 100mg EW as opposed to her suggested treatment plan of 200mg EOW. I have nothing to control E levels, and can't get anything in the foreseeable future, so hopefully this plan will stave off as much T from converting to E as possible. I spoke with him (the Endo) about the need for adding some hCG as well as adding an anti E, and he said not necessary. I know that he is an Endo, and this might sound kinda weird, but I kind of got the feeling that he was not as up to date on some of the trt protocols as a lot of members on here are. It was kind of a strange convo, but helped me to make a decision about the EW protocol.

Anyone familiar with LiquiDex 30mL 1mg/mL or it's manufacturer, Ar-r.com? Ar-r.com is a research company and LiquiDex is supposed to be an AI. Any suggestions on proper dosing protocol adding this to my 100mg Test Cyp EW?

Thanks to everyone for the sharing their experience and education........

Yes, I missed the estradiol lab. Thought it wasnt back yet.
This changes things a bit. Perhaps your depression, libido, etc were rooted in hypogonadism all along and your current problems are due to high levels of E2 as you suspected. Long term opiate use doesnt cause chronic HG from my observations. It does do a number on libido tho in the short term. I personaly use tramadol for PE.
If thats the case, and I believe it is, then hcg is definitely NOT what you need as it increases testicular E production as does LH. The testes are normally the largest source of E2 with adipose tissue second. If excess fat is a considerationthen losing it will decrease E2 . Now we are back to the diet. Fat is stored by way of the action of insulin. Insulin production is increased dramatically by simple carbs. Cut out sugar and starches and replace the calories with MUFA and SFA the fat will vanish.
So If you are going with 100mgT/w the E2 likely will not be such a problem. Just retest in a few weeks.
You seem determined to try an AI. Keep in mind that estrogen is not evil- sugar is evil. Estrogen enables vital processes including maintaining bone density and healthy lipid levels.Supressing it entirely will kill your libido. Liquidex is Arimidex. CEM-Meso sells it right here. Letrazole is another. But these drugs are not harmless. Users have reported serious and debilitating side effects infrequently. If you are going to experiment do your homework first. At a minimum read about them on RXlist, wiki and the section on drugs on the front page of Meso. Might even try the NIH at Pubmed.
I think that wraps it up. Let us know how it goes.