Regarding the use of aromatase inhibitors.

ManK

Member
10+ Year Member
So, I would like to understand why you are so reluctant to use AI to lower (not eliminate) estrogen IF necessary.
I have read people writing that they are harmful to lipids, others citing studies that show neurotoxicity.
I went to read those same studies and from what I understood it is mainly the usual way of misinterpreting the data by those who are more of a bodybuilder than a doctor....
I will start by saying that I have used AI (arimidex) in all the cycles I have done (21 in 11 years) and sometimes in minimal dosage even in trt with dosages that went from 0.5 mg every other day to, rarely 1 mg every day and honestly for what my experience is worth (I do analysis every 2 months, and during each cycle in the middle and at the end of the cycle, always) I have never managed to go below 18 pg/ml (I remember that the reference range is 11-42 pg/ml).
I will give my opinion on the following:
Regarding lipids: there is no scientific evidence that, as I often read here and on other forums, aromatase inhibitors damage the lipid profile directly or as a side effect of the drug, but rather they do so by lowering estrogens to ZERO (you say crash) which is exactly what doctors are trying to achieve when they prescribe arimidex to women with breast cancer and the studies on anastrozole and other AIs are, rightly conducted on women who take it to treat breast cancer: I remind you that it is a drug approved ONLY FOR THIS.... It is known that estrogens FAVOR HDL levels and that low estrogens reduce HDL, so it all depends on using AIs at the RIGHT dosage and WHEN they are needed to lower HIGH estrogens to an acceptable level (in range) not to ZERO them as for those who need them to treat an estrogen-dependent tumor.
Regarding neurotoxicity, the exact same reasoning applies: no study shows that taking aromatase inhibitors is neurotoxic, while some studies, always conducted on women with breast cancer, whose estrogens are RIDDEN for LIFE have highlighted neurotoxic effects: it is also known that estrogens have a strong neuroprotective component: it is also obvious that a person who has them removed for life will suffer the consequences.
I remind you that there is not a single study on the use of aromatase inhibitors on men who abuse anabolics (there are a couple conducted on young men who suffer from gynecomastia) and that the goal of using these substances is to lower estrogens to an acceptable level (in range, I repeat) in the limited time frame in which substances that aromatize and bring these hormones to excessive levels are abused.
Honestly, I laugh when I hear about "estrogen crashes" "by feeling", that is, not supported by lab tests, and people who stuff themselves with other androgens (primo or masteron, without considering the toxicity of adding other products) to avoid using drugs that are very effective if used for the desired purpose.
 
This topic is heated debate.

Many different camps with their own beliefs.

I guess, I choose to believe in AI use only if necessary (symptoms and blood work to confirm), then using the minimum effective dose and finding your own estrogen sweet spot, by learning your body. Don't always chase the numbers.
 
This topic is heated debate.

Many different camps with their own beliefs.

I guess, I choose to believe in AI use only if necessary (symptoms and blood work to confirm), then using the minimum effective dose and finding your own estrogen sweet spot, by learning your body. Don't always chase the numbers.
about the minimum necessary, is obvous i agree and is what i do and wrote up.
Numbers (bylab test) in my opinion are best then sensation. At same time, have not symphtom does’t necessary is healthy.
If your lipid profile for exemple is awful, you have not any symptoms but probably on day you will have really dangerous problems.
 
This topic is heated debate.

Many different camps with their own beliefs.
ok, but it need that who create his belief is ALSO in able to read the real study (not the ig influencer) and correctly understand the data from the real study.
And this It rarely happens in the gym
 
update:
i am on cycle, sing 500 mg test since 4 weeks (the first week i made 700 mg to frontload a bit) and i am using 2.25mg arimidex (from pharma) each week (0.25mg each day and 0.5 when i inject 2 x week), the first week i used 0.5 each day (3,5mg) .
Labs after 4 weeks: estradiol 52.95 pg/ml....
Reading theese pages i had to crash eastrogen....
 
I can give you my anecdotal experience as to why I don't use them, although I have on hand just in case my body chemistry evolves. I'll also include the admission that I haven't been doing enough to check my estrogen. It's never been an issue for me so it's almost never a concern. I guess I'm lucky in that I'm just a very low aromatizer and through experience have recognized I don't need an AI. On more than one occasion I've run up to 1500mgs of Test with other aromatizing compounds like Dbol and Anadrol and still got nothing by way of aromitization sides -these certainly aren't common doses by an means for me but were month long experiments to assess tolerance, sides, risk/reward impact, etc.. The one time I used an AI was years ago when I was still learning about these compounds we all love/hate. About 6 or 8 weeks into a 500mg Test Cyp only cycle I began adding 12.5 of Aromasin in and within a few days I sunk into a really deep depression -something I've never been prone to before, or really ever since. I upped the Test to 750mgs the following week and took another 12.5 of Aromasin, getting the same exact results. I never want to feel that way again and the only conclusion I can come to is that the Aromasin caused my estrogen to dip so low it had a profound impact of my emotional well being.

We all respond in vastly different ways to these drugs and on top of that our brain chemistry evolves throughout our lives and our bodies are constantly changing. Even with constant blood work, diligence and discipline it can still be difficult to keep our levels in the exact place we like them. Some are certainly better at it than others and I'm not one of those guys. Luckily I don't think I need to be when it comes to estrogen at this point but that is also subject to change.

Anyway, just my own personal anecdotal experience with an AI.

*I really do have to do a better job monitoring mine even if I'm a low aromatizer. This thread has helped my get focused on it.

Thanks.

Sorry for the long rant. Afternoon adderal kicked in.
 
I can give you my anecdotal experience as to why I don't use them, although I have on hand just in case my body chemistry evolves. I'll also include the admission that I haven't been doing enough to check my estrogen. It's never been an issue for me so it's almost never a concern. I guess I'm lucky in that I'm just a very low aromatizer and through experience have recognized I don't need an AI. On more than one occasion I've run up to 1500mgs of Test with other aromatizing compounds like Dbol and Anadrol and still got nothing by way of aromitization sides -these certainly aren't common doses by an means for me but were month long experiments to assess tolerance, sides, risk/reward impact, etc.. The one time I used an AI was years ago when I was still learning about these compounds we all love/hate. About 6 or 8 weeks into a 500mg Test Cyp only cycle I began adding 12.5 of Aromasin in and within a few days I sunk into a really deep depression -something I've never been prone to before, or really ever since. I upped the Test to 750mgs the following week and took another 12.5 of Aromasin, getting the same exact results. I never want to feel that way again and the only conclusion I can come to is that the Aromasin caused my estrogen to dip so low it had a profound impact of my emotional well being.

We all respond in vastly different ways to these drugs and on top of that our brain chemistry evolves throughout our lives and our bodies are constantly changing. Even with constant blood work, diligence and discipline it can still be difficult to keep our levels in the exact place we like them. Some are certainly better at it than others and I'm not one of those guys. Luckily I don't think I need to be when it comes to estrogen at this point but that is also subject to change.

Anyway, just my own personal anecdotal experience with an AI.

*I really do have to do a better job monitoring mine even if I'm a low aromatizer. This thread has helped my get focused on it.

Thanks.

Sorry for the long rant. Afternoon adderal kicked in.
probably 12,5 aromasin was too much for only 500 test.
You upped test @750 but aromasin is the only one AI that KILL (don't block like arimidex or letrozolo) the aromatase enzyme, so e2 need a lot more time to return at higher levels:AI must used with lab test : just lab test tell you the ral level of estrogen.
Have not side effects by high estrogen doesnt mean that they are in appropriate levels and have too much high estrogen (also without side effects) is not a goog think... considering that estrogen are the most oncologic hormone in the body.
I am not saying estriogen are bad, absolutely, they are absolutely necessary for many process, but they must be in appropriate range.
In every case: if you use a non suicide AI (anastrozole or letrozole) in few days your estrogen return high...
If you use aromasin it need also 1 month....
PS:
Me, like you, never had sides effects by estrogen also when ai had 280 pg ml (reference range is 11-42 pg ml)
 
I can give you my anecdotal experience as to why I don't use them, although I have on hand just in case my body chemistry evolves. I'll also include the admission that I haven't been doing enough to check my estrogen. It's never been an issue for me so it's almost never a concern. I guess I'm lucky in that I'm just a very low aromatizer and through experience have recognized I don't need an AI. On more than one occasion I've run up to 1500mgs of Test with other aromatizing compounds like Dbol and Anadrol and still got nothing by way of aromitization sides -these certainly aren't common doses by an means for me but were month long experiments to assess tolerance, sides, risk/reward impact, etc.. The one time I used an AI was years ago when I was still learning about these compounds we all love/hate. About 6 or 8 weeks into a 500mg Test Cyp only cycle I began adding 12.5 of Aromasin in and within a few days I sunk into a really deep depression -something I've never been prone to before, or really ever since. I upped the Test to 750mgs the following week and took another 12.5 of Aromasin, getting the same exact results. I never want to feel that way again and the only conclusion I can come to is that the Aromasin caused my estrogen to dip so low it had a profound impact of my emotional well being.

We all respond in vastly different ways to these drugs and on top of that our brain chemistry evolves throughout our lives and our bodies are constantly changing. Even with constant blood work, diligence and discipline it can still be difficult to keep our levels in the exact place we like them. Some are certainly better at it than others and I'm not one of those guys. Luckily I don't think I need to be when it comes to estrogen at this point but that is also subject to change.

Anyway, just my own personal anecdotal experience with an AI.

*I really do have to do a better job monitoring mine even if I'm a low aromatizer. This thread has helped my get focused on it.

Thanks.

Sorry for the long rant. Afternoon adderal kicked in.


"The key here is moderation and proper application of aromatase inhibitors (AIs). You're right in highlighting that the issue is not the AI itself, but rather how it's used—lowering estrogen to a level that's beneficial without going to extremes, like zeroing it out. The concerns around lipids and neurotoxicity generally arise from extreme, prolonged use of AIs, particularly at doses that induce a dramatic drop in estrogen. However, when used appropriately, the risks can be minimized, and the benefits of maintaining estrogen within the desired range can outweigh these concerns. The lack of studies on AIs for men abusing anabolics leaves much to be debated, but balancing estrogen levels within a safe range is crucial. Your personal experience with regular monitoring and adjustments seems to align with this approach. You can dig deeper via the link below.
Thank you so much for taking the time to write it briefly. I appreciate you.
 
So, I would like to understand why you are so reluctant to use AI to lower (not eliminate) estrogen IF necessary.
I have read people writing that they are harmful to lipids, others citing studies that show neurotoxicity.
I went to read those same studies and from what I understood it is mainly the usual way of misinterpreting the data by those who are more of a bodybuilder than a doctor....
I will start by saying that I have used AI (arimidex) in all the cycles I have done (21 in 11 years) and sometimes in minimal dosage even in trt with dosages that went from 0.5 mg every other day to, rarely 1 mg every day and honestly for what my experience is worth (I do analysis every 2 months, and during each cycle in the middle and at the end of the cycle, always) I have never managed to go below 18 pg/ml (I remember that the reference range is 11-42 pg/ml).
I will give my opinion on the following:
Regarding lipids: there is no scientific evidence that, as I often read here and on other forums, aromatase inhibitors damage the lipid profile directly or as a side effect of the drug, but rather they do so by lowering estrogens to ZERO (you say crash) which is exactly what doctors are trying to achieve when they prescribe arimidex to women with breast cancer and the studies on anastrozole and other AIs are, rightly conducted on women who take it to treat breast cancer: I remind you that it is a drug approved ONLY FOR THIS.... It is known that estrogens FAVOR HDL levels and that low estrogens reduce HDL, so it all depends on using AIs at the RIGHT dosage and WHEN they are needed to lower HIGH estrogens to an acceptable level (in range) not to ZERO them as for those who need them to treat an estrogen-dependent tumor.
Regarding neurotoxicity, the exact same reasoning applies: no study shows that taking aromatase inhibitors is neurotoxic, while some studies, always conducted on women with breast cancer, whose estrogens are RIDDEN for LIFE have highlighted neurotoxic effects: it is also known that estrogens have a strong neuroprotective component: it is also obvious that a person who has them removed for life will suffer the consequences.
I remind you that there is not a single study on the use of aromatase inhibitors on men who abuse anabolics (there are a couple conducted on young men who suffer from gynecomastia) and that the goal of using these substances is to lower estrogens to an acceptable level (in range, I repeat) in the limited time frame in which substances that aromatize and bring these hormones to excessive levels are abused.
Honestly, I laugh when I hear about "estrogen crashes" "by feeling", that is, not supported by lab tests, and people who stuff themselves with other androgens (primo or masteron, without considering the toxicity of adding other products) to avoid using drugs that are very effective if used for the desired purpose.
There is a lot of insanity about the "estrogen crashes" on this forum these days.

I don't know what to make of it. Apparently, everything is an aromatase inhibitor and the best cycle is to run 1 gram of test per week or more, and just hope for the best.

Because bro science.
 
But in the case of an ‘estrogen crash’ (which usually means when levels drop to around 12 pg/ml or lower), wouldn’t it be enough to add some hCG during the cycle to push estrogen levels higher?
I still not tested How much hcg can higher e2.. I will do soon

I mean if this ‘crash’ is due to other drugs that, as a side effect, inhibit the aromatase enzyme.
 
Among those that are not ambivalent, there are 2 main groups. There is those that have experienced gynecomastia or read horror stories, and those that have crashed their estradiol or read horror stories. Frankly, it is basically impossible for there to be a cohesive response due to differing brain chemistries. I, for one, have intentionally crashed e2 with high doses eod aromasin for several weeks and experienced basically no side effects (note the short duration though). Many others would experience feelings of "impending doom" at slightly lowered estradiol levels.
 
use it at the proper dose for you, which is individual, if you need it to have your estrogen where you want it.

Its a good tool in the toolbox when running high testosterone.
 
I posted this the other day on pro muscle so I will copy it here

I’m not really afraid of having high estradiol. When we look at studies of high estrogen having negative cardiovascular issues in men, it’s always in the men who are not injecting testosterone. In those instances, high estradiol appears to be a consequence of other root causes (like obesity), not the primary cause.

When my estradiol is high, and it usually is above the lab range, I don’t get any blood pressure increases, lipid abnormalities, or insulin resistance. When it’s low, it does cause lipid abnormalities and increased inflammation.

I take my shots daily, which keeps E2 levels stable. I also take HCG daily.

Another thing I want to point out is another form of estrogen (17 alpha estradiol) increased lifespan in male mice very significantly (but not female mice). Just some food for thought.

The bottom line is there simply isn’t evidence about whether high estradiol from taking high amounts of testosterone is harmful or not since it hasn’t been studied. My opinion is nothing more than an educated guess based on the evidence I’ve researched.

I wouldn’t take one again. I had old man joint pains last times I did and my E2 was within the normal range. If I got gyno, I’d simply lower my dose or use primo.
 
DHT is really the key to understanding this.

Those who have naturally high DHT levels (including most men that are bald) tend to tolerate high estrogen levels that can be very high without much apparent ill-effect. But over time, high estrogen can cause big trouble - with prostate cancer development the primary concern.

In the majority of men who have normal or low range DHT levels, problems tend to develop quickly when estrogen moves above reference range, regardless of testosterone levels - excessive emotionality, jealousness, anxiety, gynecomastia, absent or weak erections, poor libido, and ED (specifically going soft during the act). Water retention and high blood pressure occur in many as well. I did not say nipple sensitivity, because that is often more indicative of a short term rise in estrogen levels than actual gynecomastia, although if the issue is not corrected it can progress to that.

Typical cookie cutter TRT test (200mg/wk) will result in out of range E2 in nearly all men, excluding some bodybuilder-types who have worked their way to up high doses of testosterone. Using HCG along with TRT will further increase it, as it directly stimulates the Leydig cells which have intrinsic aromatase.

Bottom line is if dick isn't working right on TRT or (non-19nor) gear, estrogen is too high. Options are to lower the test dose to get it back into range or use an AI to dial it in. Unfortunately all the ancillary AI drugs are designed to basically wipe out aromatase in breast cancer patients, so dosing for smaller decreases in estradiol can be hard to dial in - particularly with anastrozole as 1mg is the 'nuke your estrogen' dose. Aromasin is a little easier (and superior in several other ways, including higher IGF-1 levels, less hair loss, improved bone density, and no decrease in HDL) but pharma is only available as 25mg tabs... for men using testosterone, 6.25mg tablets would be really great. Liquid is UGL only so questionable.

Another strategy is to transition TRT/test from longer esters like cypionate/enanthate which give stable daily levels, to short esters ie proprionate or acetate with daily injections. Or use a blend ie 17.5mg enanthate + 5mg propionate, which is what I'm currently using. This intentionally creates a daily peak/trough that usually results in less aromatization compared to a constant level, with the same total "area under the curve" - basically full amounts of estrogen aren't being produced 24/7. And injecting IM will reduce aromatization somewhat, compared to subQ, as subcutaneous tissue is fat which is very rich in aromatase enzyme. The peak/trough model has some other advantages like diminished suppression of natural hormones, reduced impact on HCT, and improved sleep.

Regarding HCG, daily dosing of 100-120iu will prevent testicular atrophy and should only minimally increase estradiol levels. On the other hand, using 500iu three times a week, seemingly a common dose, can raise it quite a bit.
 
Ive experienced high estrogen sides per bloodwork - awful. Oily skin, emotional, acne every where, spicy nips, floppy dick.


Ive experienced near 0 estrogen per bloodwork - Nothing besides minor joint annoyance. Dick could make a table float, mind worked, skin was fine, level headed. Unfortunately this is the lowest reading I have online, I had a physical piece of paper from my healthcare provider showing it at 2 pg/mL and test in the 100s but I can't find it.

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