Restart Suppressed Hpta - Not Due To Aas

[Jack Evans]

Hope you guys can provide some input.

I used topical products to no end containing Tea Tree oil in. It's categorized as an endocrine disruptor as it mimics estrogen.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa064725#t=articleTop

I'm sure it can be debated one way or the other but prior to me using it I was a normal functioning 30yo with healthy libido and lean build.

My story:

2004-2006 - At 30 yo I slowly migrated from a healthy lean body to a bloated moody guy with no change in diet or exercise regimen. No clue what was going on. That transformation happened over 6-8 months and at first assumed it was the 30s era. Horrible bloating and constipation so saw a GI with no success. As it got worse over they year, and my libido pretty much non existant, i did my 'research' and read up about hormones. Sure as shit my TT was 270 (rr 280-827) so I started freaking out. Going to Endo yielded nothing but 'lose some weight' ..as I was so bloated and had a pot belly from it. Finally got more labs and TT was always consistently on the low borderline range (all labs at 8am) and this time had LH/FSH and both of those were right above the low range. They did run MRI and no issue with my Pit gland and my Thyroid labs are all ideal. So i had these labs drawn every 3 months or so and no changes. Finally added estrogen labs into the mix and while E2 was normal there was a reading for Total Estrogens that was 150 (rr was simply <130). So i that was high.

2007 - This had gone on of 3 years and after reading more abt fake estrogen/xenoestrogens i started looking at my soaps etc and came across the Tea Tree Oil study I posted. I used to fking bathe in it. Jeez. I stopped and within a month my LH went to 4 and my TT went to 450. Libido was slightly improved and the weight/bloated went away for most part.

So Here we are in 2014. My TT is consistently at 440 and LH is at 4 (2-11 range). I think my body just adjusted to this level? I did get an HCG stim test in 2009 and my TT jumped to 740 so I do know my boys still work. I have don't have any ED issues ...just my libido is so so at best and when i do have sex it doesn't last long (and my ejaculate just dribbles out). I have weak morning wood at best.

I'm here to ask will Clomid be something for me to use to get my levels up and possbily ween off after 3-6 months? I do still have an existing layer of belly fat that I believe low TT is preventing me from losing. Is that possibly still estrogenic and thus shutting down my HPTA?
Overall I'm 5'9" and weigh 174lbs..my only real fat is around my belly and love handles...rest is pretty toned from working out.

Thanks for taking time reading my post. Any input appreciated.

 

[blazinshotguns]

I think you should get your e2 levels checked

 

[Jack Evans]

Yes. Getting a full hormone panel done in 2 weeks. Last E22 was 10 (sorry don't have rr but it was on low end). I don't believe my E2 is too low as its there naturally. And if it is too low i would likely be the first to be proactively raising my E2 lol.

 

[Marcus]

From everything you've said, it sounds like you might be a good candidate for TRT a. While it is possible to use something like a SERM and possibly restart HPTA (funny cause I'm 29 with natty T is around 350 and I keep hoping through proper PCT that my levels will come within acceptable range to put off TRT), or possibly use HCG a in combination with a SERM... From the opinions of others, it seems rather unlikely. But NOT impossible.

This is just my personal opinion and maybe this will bump this thread for someone with a little more experience with TRT. The full hormone panel will give more insight into your issues.

Bump for @Northern Nutrition

 

[Jack Evans]

Thanks Marcus. But in all honesty I don't want to tread the HRT path at this time for fear of juggling the TT/E2 balance.

My labs I've shared for TT are recent but my E2 is from 2006. Even at my worse E2 was relatively on low end (I called my old dr office to get copies...misplaced from 2 diff't state moves since 2007). My full hormonal panel will be drawn end of month as I meet with a Urologist who opened up a clinic within his practice specifically for sexual health and hormonal treatment. Hoping / assuming he's well read on alternative treatments and not just TRT.

Thanks for the posts.

 

[Northern Nutrition]

My best advice is for you to continue to be patient for the next couple weeks until you see this new doctor. Youre not shut down as your TT and and sex hormones are functioning fine. Your thyroid and pituitary is functioning, as well as your testes. So there is no cause for alarm.

A full blood panel will provide more answers and between that and the Urologist, hopefully you both will get dialed in properly. But its important that you receive proper treatment by a health professional in order to establish a healthy baseline FIRST.

 

[Northern Nutrition]

And welcome to Meso, Jack.

 

[Marcus]

Andddddd that's y I tagged you, haha. Usually the most sound advice for this kind of stuff. Thanks brotha

 

[Jack Evans]

Thank you Marcus and Northern Nutrion. Appreciate the insight.

One thing to mention is my vitamin D is at 20 with rr 30-150. Reading that vitamin D is critical for hormones. Is that bunk or accurate??

 

[Marcus]

I have a vit D deficiency too, I supplement with 1000iu of vit D every day because of it. At least, I mean I had one come up on blood results 1 year and ever since added vitamin D into my daily vitamins. It's cheap and available.

 

[Jack Evans]

I should say my last 450 TT was in March. But as of last 6 weeks the low T symptoms have been more evident. Lack of morning wood and libido not there. All signs tell me my labs will be low TT. Will be shocked if it's not.

I did take some Dim and calcium d glucarate recently as i felt it was estrogenic dominance again. That really seemed to create dead dick syndrome. stopped that and will wait on labs.

I will ask this...how long do hormones stay bound to receptors?? Are they constantly getting refreshed?? Is it possible I still have estrogen locked in my belly fat?

 

[Jack Evans]

My best advice is for you to continue to be patient for the next couple weeks until you see this new doctor. Youre not shut down as your TT and and sex hormones are functioning fine. Your thyroid and pituitary is functioning, as well as your testes. So there is no cause for alarm.

A full blood panel will provide more answers and between that and the Urologist, hopefully you both will get dialed in properly. But its important that you receive proper treatment by a health professional in order to establish a healthy baseline FIRST.

So I got my labs back (shared over phone). Same as the last few years. TSH T4 FT3 were taken as well as FSH but didn't cover on phone. F/U appt is 2 weeks with Uro.

T is 452 (rr 240 - 847)
LH is 4 (rr 2-11)
E2 is 16

During my consult with Uro he was interested in my low T symptoms despite my relatively smack down middle T levels. He did say my FreeT of 1.2% was concern to him. He did a quick nut check and prostate check and agreed testicles were in fact small. He did also comment on my relatively lean/toned frame with exception of my 6month old looking pregnant belly.

So he does treat several patients with TRT but said he would like to use Clomid for me. To get my natural T levels up and then see how I feel and hopefully get my own system to 'right itself'. He said we'll run the labs and if LH comes back in middle to low range he'll want to go with Clomid. Again he had no interest in putting me on TRT and quite honestly I don't want to go that route with where my levels are.

For the record all other aspects of my life are in great order (wife, kids, work, etc). So it's not a mental issue with regards to my libido and lack of morning erections (and generally lack of erections thru the day). I'm hoping it'll be low dose of clomid that will help increase my T and thus will have minimal side effects I've read about. I'm thinking 25mg EOD would be sufficient as I've never been totally shut down.

Appreciate any thoughts/input.
Thanks
Jack

 

[Northern Nutrition]

Wow, im impressed. Nothing really to add here as it appears you and your doc are taking a responsible and educated approach to your treatment and potential protocols. I really think you're in good hands here, Jack. Continue to work with this doc and keep us posted on any developments.

 

[Jack Evans]

Wow, im impressed. Nothing really to add here as it appears you and your doc are taking a responsible and educated approach to your treatment and potential protocols. I really think you're in good hands here, Jack. Continue to work with this doc and keep us posted on any developments.

Thanks man. I have a simplistic mind and thought process on this. Im just happy he suggested the clomid route on his own based on his experience and not me the patient asking for it and him agreeing to it to appease me.

I'll keep this thread updated...likely 12/10 when my f/U appt is.

All the best
Jack

 

[Rocks Off]

Hope you guys can provide some input.

I used topical products to no end containing Tea Tree oil in. It's categorized as an endocrine disruptor as it mimics estrogen.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa064725#t=articleTop

I'm sure it can be debated one way or the other but prior to me using it I was a normal functioning 30yo with healthy libido and lean build.

My story:

2004-2006 - At 30 yo I slowly migrated from a healthy lean body to a bloated moody guy with no change in diet or exercise regimen. No clue what was going on. That transformation happened over 6-8 months and at first assumed it was the 30s era. Horrible bloating and constipation so saw a GI with no success. As it got worse over they year, and my libido pretty much non existant, i did my 'research' and read up about hormones. Sure as shit my TT was 270 (rr 280-827) so I started freaking out. Going to Endo yielded nothing but 'lose some weight' ..as I was so bloated and had a pot belly from it. Finally got more labs and TT was always consistently on the low borderline range (all labs at 8am) and this time had LH/FSH and both of those were right above the low range. They did run MRI and no issue with my Pit gland and my Thyroid labs are all ideal. So i had these labs drawn every 3 months or so and no changes. Finally added estrogen labs into the mix and while E2 was normal there was a reading for Total Estrogens that was 150 (rr was simply <130). So i that was high.

2007 - This had gone on of 3 years and after reading more abt fake estrogen/xenoestrogens i started looking at my soaps etc and came across the Tea Tree Oil study I posted. I used to fking bathe in it. Jeez. I stopped and within a month my LH went to 4 and my TT went to 450. Libido was slightly improved and the weight/bloated went away for most part.

So Here we are in 2014. My TT is consistently at 440 and LH is at 4 (2-11 range). I think my body just adjusted to this level? I did get an HCG stim test in 2009 and my TT jumped to 740 so I do know my boys still work. I have don't have any ED issues ...just my libido is so so at best and when i do have sex it doesn't last long (and my ejaculate just dribbles out). I have weak morning wood at best.

I'm here to ask will Clomid be something for me to use to get my levels up and possbily ween off after 3-6 months? I do still have an existing layer of belly fat that I believe low TT is preventing me from losing. Is that possibly still estrogenic and thus shutting down my HPTA?
Overall I'm 5'9" and weigh 174lbs..my only real fat is around my belly and love handles...rest is pretty toned from working out.

Thanks for taking time reading my post. Any input appreciated.

Thanks for posting your story Jack, your experience is very, very similar to mine. I felt like I was reading a story about myself, except my E2 is super low. Your TT and LH levels are very much like mine too. I think we're about the same age as well.

Was wondering if you could elaborate on your hCG stim test you had done? Sounds like you had a good response to it. Why didn't you stay on it permanently? Was it just a one time dose or did you dose for a little while? What dose was the stim test at?

Do you know what your Free T and SHBG levels are?

I'm at the clomid/hCG crossroads myself. Just trying to decide which way to go.
I'll be following this thread. Thanks.

 

[flexx89]

so tea tree oil fucks with your testosterone and increasses estrogen? damn i just bought some to try to help w acne on my skin

 

[Jack Evans]

Thanks for posting your story Jack, your experience is very, very similar to mine. I felt like I was reading a story about myself, except my E2 is super low. Your TT and LH levels are very much like mine too. I think we're about the same age as well.

Was wondering if you could elaborate on your hCG stim test you had done? Sounds like you had a good response to it. Why didn't you stay on it permanently? Was it just a one time dose or did you dose for a little while? What dose was the stim test at?

Do you know what your Free T and SHBG levels are?

I'm at the clomid/hCG crossroads myself. Just trying to decide which way to go.
I'll be following this thread. Thanks.

I don't have the actual report in hand and don't want to be he pestering patient to call for it when I'll get the hard copy 12/10 at the appt. previous free T levels are 1 to 1.5 % and shbg is low normal.

The HCG stim test was a one time high dose (1500 iu I think). Never intended to use as treatment. Even at those TT levels I didn't feel all that awesome. Hoping its cuz the excess LH analog or whatever off set the T improvements.

Unsure if i mentioned in previous posts that but in 2004 after T levels were confirmed near bottoms levels 2x I was rx'd Testim gels for TRT. I went ahead and started and after 10 days felt like absolute shit (and thats bad as I was horrible already). Anyway I stopped and decided to wait out an answer before bandaid treatmenr. A week later it was if my system was back on...testicles were full and libido and erection strength were more than I could ask for. Sadly it was short lived for a week (assuming the tea trea oil just put me back into the low T state). I tried to re duplicate this once I found out abt tea tree oil and stopped using it in 2007. But wasn't able to recreate that again. So after years of waiting it out im hoping Clomid can get me restarts and over time ween off it.

Do you know why T levels are low as well as E2? Meds? Propecia (as I've read and that issue similar to low T and secondary hypoG symptoms).

Good luck

 

[Rocks Off]

I don't have the actual report in hand and don't want to be he pestering patient to call for it when I'll get the hard copy 12/10 at the appt. previous free T levels are 1 to 1.5 % and shbg is low normal.

The HCG stim test was a one time high dose (1500 iu I think). Never intended to use as treatment. Even at those TT levels I didn't feel all that awesome. Hoping its cuz the excess LH analog or whatever off set the T improvements.

Unsure if i mentioned in previous posts that but in 2004 after T levels were confirmed near bottoms levels 2x I was rx'd Testim gels for TRT. I went ahead and started and after 10 days felt like absolute shit (and thats bad as I was horrible already). Anyway I stopped and decided to wait out an answer before bandaid treatmenr. A week later it was if my system was back on...testicles were full and libido and erection strength were more than I could ask for. Sadly it was short lived for a week (assuming the tea trea oil just put me back into the low T state). I tried to re duplicate this once I found out abt tea tree oil and stopped using it in 2007. But wasn't able to recreate that again. So after years of waiting it out im hoping Clomid can get me restarts and over time ween off it.

Do you know why T levels are low as well as E2? Meds? Propecia (as I've read and that issue similar to low T and secondary hypoG symptoms).

Good luck

Hey Jack thanks for your response. No I don't know why my levels are like this. Haven't been able to get a clear answer from my endo-who thinks I'm just fine. Maybe @Northern Nutrition might have an idea?

Never taken propecia. Only on inhaler for asthma.

After I got my last labs taken-which I paid for out of pocket- I took the results to my endo. She said that I was " probably within normal ranges" because of the natural variance in day to day hormone levels and because of the variances in testing measures. (I thought she was punking me at first, but she was serious). She said this to me after seeing that my Free T and E2 are both below the low range, my SHBG is near the top of the high range, and that my TT is barely 100ng/dl above the low end of the range. Never mind the low libido, no morning wood, poor exercise recovery, and the inability to lose fat or put on muscle. Neither of my two endo's in the last 7 years have bothered to do a clomid or hcg stim test to even see if I am primary or secondary and what the response might be. Glad you got a proactive Uro.

Just like you, I have low Vit D levels. Think I was at 27 with the low range being 29. Been taking 5-10,000 IU's most days. Don't know if it's really doing anything-don't feel any better.

Anyways man, sorry for hijacking your thread. Look forward to your follow up.

 

[Jack Evans]

So I got my labs back (shared over phone). Same as the last few years. TSH T4 FT3 were taken as well as FSH but didn't cover on phone. F/U appt is 2 weeks with Uro.

T is 452 (rr 240 - 847)
LH is 4 (rr 2-11)
E2 is 16

During my consult with Uro he was interested in my low T symptoms despite my relatively smack down middle T levels. He did say my FreeT of 1.2% was concern to him. He did a quick nut check and prostate check and agreed testicles were in fact small. He did also comment on my relatively lean/toned frame with exception of my 6month old looking pregnant belly.

So he does treat several patients with TRT but said he would like to use Clomid for me. To get my natural T levels up and then see how I feel and hopefully get my own system to 'right itself'. He said we'll run the labs and if LH comes back in middle to low range he'll want to go with Clomid. Again he had no interest in putting me on TRT and quite honestly I don't want to go that route with where my levels are.

For the record all other aspects of my life are in great order (wife, kids, work, etc). So it's not a mental issue with regards to my libido and lack of morning erections (and generally lack of erections thru the day). I'm hoping it'll be low dose of clomid that will help increase my T and thus will have minimal side effects I've read about. I'm thinking 25mg EOD would be sufficient as I've never been totally shut down.

Appreciate any thoughts/input.
Thanks
Jack

So just had my follow up with the Uro. He reviewed the labs I shared above. He kept shrugging and trying to make it out as to why my FreeT was low while my TT was smack in middle of range. My Free T was 69 ..sorry no rr on hand to share (i dind't get a copy of the labs..just saw on his screen)...he said he would like my free T at 130-140 if that helps to understand. So he said he'd like to go the Clomid route and to increase my T and thus hope my Free T raises. He said the 452 TT is not the # he cares to follow rather the Free T. He prescribed 50mg EOD.

He did say that with this dose and my current labs that raising my estrogen shouldn't be an issue. My E2 is 16 which he said is good. He suggested the abdominal fat that I have will likely melt over time with this dose (assuming I'm working out). And to have my labs drawn in 5 wks and f/u appt a week after.

Sorry if this post is choppy. Any questions or suggestions are welcomed. Will start my first dose tonight.

 

[Jack Evans]

Is it dumb that i wish he said 25mg every day and not 50mg eod??

But he did say 50mg eod shouldn't cause any mood swings or high E issues. Let's hope that's the case. Read too many bad stories. Need to think positive.