MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
running letro with pct
- Thread starter avulsed23
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toothache
New Member
I wouldn't.
Just take the nolva for pct and save letro for when you are on cycle again.
Just take the nolva for pct and save letro for when you are on cycle again.
xXGetBigSonXx
New Member
Use your normal pct protocol and use the letro if you have gyno flare ups
IMO Letro isn't worth it because you'r lowering estrogen levels to subphysiological levels which in turn can cause all kinds of nasty problems.
So to me, its a waste and won't help in raising testosterone any faster. Its the response of the testes to LH pulses which will signal natural production to occur, and Letro will not have an positrive effect on this. In this area more is not better as the body will only respond so fast.
Basically (like everyone else!) I think Letro would be counter-productive to use during PCT.
So to me, its a waste and won't help in raising testosterone any faster. Its the response of the testes to LH pulses which will signal natural production to occur, and Letro will not have an positrive effect on this. In this area more is not better as the body will only respond so fast.
Basically (like everyone else!) I think Letro would be counter-productive to use during PCT.
MesomorphosisGuy
New Member
And Nolvadex - this carcinogenic sh*t - is O.K.? To my knowledge, letrozole is the strongest PCT drug available. It is able to elevate LH levels more than 3-times, and raise testosterone levels by 150-220%! The data I have at hand indicate that no serious estrogen suppression occurs, if you take it for few weeks.
Diabetes Obes Metab. 2005 May;7(3):211-5.
Letrozole normalizes serum testosterone in severely obese men with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. de Boer H, Verschoor L, Ruinemans-Koerts J, Jansen M.
Six weeks of treatment (at 7.5-17.5 mg/week) decreased serum estradiol from 120 +/- 20 to 70 +/- 9 pmol/l (p = 0.006). None of the subjects developed an estradiol level of less than 40 pmol/l. LH increased from 4.5 +/- 0.8 to 14.8 +/- 2.3 U/l (p < 0.001). Total testosterone rose from 7.5 +/- 1.0 to 23.8 +/- 3.0 nmol/l (p < 0.001) (+217%!!!) without a concomitant change in sex hormone-binding globulin level.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Oct;90(10):5717-22. Epub 2005 Jul 26.
Comparative assessment in young and elderly men of the gonadotropin response to aromatase inhibition. T'Sjoen GG, Giagulli VA, Delva H, Crabbe P, De Bacquer D, Kaufman JM.
As assessed after 28 d of treatment (at 2.5 mg/day), letrozole lowered E2 (plasma estradiol levels) by 46% in the young men (P = 0.002) and 62% in the elderly men (P < 0.001). In both age groups, letrozole, but not placebo, significantly increased LH levels (339 and 323% in the young and the elderly, respectively) and testosterone (146 and 99%, respectively) (P value of young vs. elderly was not significant).
Furthermore, SHBG decreased, and free testosterone increased by 178% in young men and 147% in the elderly men.
Eur J Endocrinol. 2008 May;158(5):741-7.
Letrozole once a week normalizes serum testosterone in obesity-related male hypogonadism.
Loves S, Ruinemans-Koerts J, de Boer H.
Open, uncontrolled 6-month pilot study in 12 severely obese men (body mass index>35.0 kg/m(2)) with obesity-related IHH and free testosterone levels <225 pmol/l, treated with 2.5 mg letrozole once a week for 6 months. RESULTS: Six weeks of treatment reduced total plasma estradiol from 123+/-11 to 58+/-7 pmol/l (P<0.001, mean+/-s.e.m.), and increased serum LH from 4.4+/-0.6 to 11.1+/-1.5 U/l (P<0.001). Total testosterone rose from 5.9+/-0.5 to 19.6+/-1.4 nmol/l (P<0.001) (+222%!!!), and free testosterone from 163+/-13 to 604+/-50 pmol/l (P<0.001). Total testosterone rose to within the normal range in all subjects, whereas free testosterone rose to supraphysiological levels in 7 out of 12 men.
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One of the major issues post aas usage is the estrogen rebound effect.
An AI will not address your body´s response of producing natural estrogen.
You need a serm like nolv.
Yes, and most of the BB on here are neither morbidly obese nor very young or very old (though the latter may be open to discussion
), so the studies cited by this MG are irrelevant.Sure Letro will temporarily cause the body to produce more testosterone, but it's a suicide for estrogen. While being used, it will prevent estrogen release, which is necessary in normal, healthy males. After cessation, it will either continue to prevent almost all estrogen release (very bad) or it the infamous rebound effect will occur and the body will be flooded with estrogen (very bad indeed). If you must use an AI, use Aromasin, which is said not to cause such sudden rebound effect when it's dropped as your body falls back on its own resources. LH & FSH will probably lapse into sleep after you stop the Letro, too.
In the long run, Letro is an absolutely terrible choice for Post Cycle Therapy since it will not restore your natural Hypothalamus-Pituitary-Testicle Axis. Nolvadex has been claimed to be cancer related since some obscure studies seemed to show that in patients who already had malignant growths, Nolva increased their growth rate. But there is absolutely no indication that for healthy users nolvadex causes cancer. If you're afraid, use Clomid instead for your PCT.
Overall, use HCG after your last inject for up to two weeks. THEN, if you want to cover all bases, run Clomid and Nolva, and, what the heck, throw in some Aromasin to keep PCT bloat & possible gynomastia down.
Solo
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Stretch
Subscriber
DO NOT use letro with PCT....
DO NOT use letro while on cycle, UNLESS you see warning signs for gyno.
If you use letro, start with like .25mg ED or even EOD at first. If you don't notice anything raise the dose slowly
DO NOT use letro while on cycle, UNLESS you see warning signs for gyno.
If you use letro, start with like .25mg ED or even EOD at first. If you don't notice anything raise the dose slowly
Man, I dont know how more SOLID an answer you want.
Just because you HAVE the stuff doesnt mean you NEED it. You get this stuff JIC man...so you didnt have issues and you can save it for your next cycle. Thats a GOOD thing bro. Seriously, this is powerful stuff...if you dont have sides there is no good reason to use it...and several damn good reasons not to. Just let it go man [
)]
Just because you HAVE the stuff doesnt mean you NEED it. You get this stuff JIC man...so you didnt have issues and you can save it for your next cycle. Thats a GOOD thing bro. Seriously, this is powerful stuff...if you dont have sides there is no good reason to use it...and several damn good reasons not to. Just let it go man [
)]MesomorphosisGuy
New Member
While being used..for many months. The lack of estrogen is not just a thing that you should be worried about immediately after your cycle.
What about tapering the dosage? Don't all anti-estrogens elevate LH and FSH artifically? What is so special and dangerous on letrozole that I should prefer exemestane instead? Letrozole is the strongest anti-estrogen available. My first concern after the cycle is a quick restoration of LH and testosterone levels. This is what letrozole does best and I will willingly sacrifice some estrogen, if it does its job well.
I have had no experience with letrozole so far, I will start to take it next week, as an addition to S-4 during my PCT. If it turns out to be a mistake, I will correct my opinion. However, I know one thing for sure: If I relied on HCG or exemestane during PCT, I would lose all my gains, before it would start to work. Last summer, I lost virtually all my gains within mere 10 days after the end of a 8-week Winstrol cycle, despite taking Tamoxifen. A subsequent blood work showed that my testosterone levels must have been practically zero. This is why I won't rely on anti-estrogens anymore, and I must add S-4 besides a strong anti-estrogen like letrozole.
Furthermore, the claims about Tamoxifen causing liver cancer are no mythology. Tamoxifen is a brutally carcinogenic drug in laboratory animals. It is true that its carcinogenic effect is much, much smaller in humans, and you would have to take it permanently for at least 2 years, but I won't risk it, if I can use something safer and more effective instead.
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Great , I really hope that works out for you. You qouted several things Solo posted, but failed to respond to the part where he said that Letro does absolutely nothing to stimulate the HPTA. That jibes with everything I've personally ever read or understood to be true. Are you disagreeing with that?
So JUST raising Test levels temporarily and keeping down E is your goal for your PCT? Sounds like a great plan if you want to lose everthing you've gained man. Of course, running a winny only cycle for 8 weeks doesnt sound much like a solid cycle in the first place, but hey...its your body bro. Ignore solid advice and do your own thing. Like I said, I really hope it works out for you.
And arguments about Nolva being carcinogenic at the doses and time intervals we take it are idiotic. Like Solo said, there's always Clomid, but hell man enough of anything is carcinogenic. I think you are being narrow minded. Think about it like this: if you want to be 100% safe and not take any chances then why are you fucking around with you HPTA like this in the first place? Especially with a BS "cycle" like winny only? Just my thinking man, but it seems to me like you should be more worried about a healthy and functioning HPTA than the extremely minor risk associated with Nolva.
So JUST raising Test levels temporarily and keeping down E is your goal for your PCT? Sounds like a great plan if you want to lose everthing you've gained man. Of course, running a winny only cycle for 8 weeks doesnt sound much like a solid cycle in the first place, but hey...its your body bro. Ignore solid advice and do your own thing. Like I said, I really hope it works out for you.
And arguments about Nolva being carcinogenic at the doses and time intervals we take it are idiotic. Like Solo said, there's always Clomid, but hell man enough of anything is carcinogenic. I think you are being narrow minded. Think about it like this: if you want to be 100% safe and not take any chances then why are you fucking around with you HPTA like this in the first place? Especially with a BS "cycle" like winny only? Just my thinking man, but it seems to me like you should be more worried about a healthy and functioning HPTA than the extremely minor risk associated with Nolva.
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With this plan, you're just postponing the inevitable and making the rebound even worse (IMO). Letro may help you hold on to some of the gains of your fabulous cycle during PCT, but when PCT ends and the shit hits the fan – your testosterone falls to zero while estrogen takes the field – you will feel worse and look worse than you did after your last cycle.
One thing I know for sure izzat HCG starts to work almost immediately and will rapidly increase both natural testosterone and estrogen. Aromasin (exemestane) goes to work plenty rapidly enough to block the build-up of estrogen (it's more powerful than arimidex).
As JMills, notes, you're putting the blame in the wrong place for your sudden losses after your last cycle. Eight weeks of Winnie will drop off the cliff entirely in week nine: That's your problem.
Everyone loses something off-cycle (unless they cheat by bridging or cruising). If you really want to retain gains off-cycle, run hGH.
Choose wisely,
Solo
MesomorphosisGuy
New Member
Letrozole increases LH and FSH levels more than 3-times, in a dose-dependent manner. All studies show it very clearly. Thus, letrozole is the strongest anti-estrogen in this regard.
All anti-estrogens are "raising Test levels temporarily", and elevate FSH and LH levels "temporarily". The question is, to what a degree it will help the HPTA in recovery. I don't know an answer to this question. But I prefer running anti-estrogens during PCT for at least the same time like the cycle, and tapering the doses in the end.
It is true that Tamoxifen has a big advantage, because it blocks the estrogen receptor, and not the actual synthesis of estrogens. But I decided not to risk using a clear carcinogen.
"Running a winny only cycle for 8 weeks" is a cycle like all other cycles. One important thing I didn't know was that 8 weeks on steroids can suppress my testosterone so brutally. I didn't have such problems before, when I ran Winstrol for 6 weeks.
Clomid? Well, but my wallet will be very probably very thin after the end of PCT.
MesomorphosisGuy
New Member
I thought over using HCG, but I would have to use some anti-estrogen with it anyway, so I rather decided for the combination S4+anti-estrogen. Furthermore, I don't believe that HCG could help me. I would lose most of my gains, before it would elevate testosterone levels significantly. This is the main reason, why I prefer S4 instead.
The numbers concerning letrozole are impressive, and as for the alleged "estrogen rebound", it will certainly happen mainly after a strong suppression, which is not the case during a short-term use, when the suppression reaches -2/3 maximally, in the most extreme cases.
Man, I dont know how more SOLID an answer you want.
Just because you HAVE the stuff doesnt mean you NEED it. You get this stuff JIC man...so you didnt have issues and you can save it for your next cycle. Thats a GOOD thing bro. Seriously, this is powerful stuff...if you dont have sides there is no good reason to use it...and several damn good reasons not to. Just let it go man [
I thought I made it clear that I do have sides though? I bought it for gyno related reasons meaning I bought it because I have gyno issues. Sorry if I wasnt clear on that.
DinkLeonitis
New Member
I know I don't usually post here and this is an old thread. I do read through a lot of old stuff. Just posting this because it could help a bro out. I got shout down bad when I first took the plunge. I had a very hard time tolerating nolva. After about 5-7 days it's almost as bad as prami for me. (I have access to real American prescribed nolva, so I know it is the real thing). I found that this PCT protocol worked for me. I got all my values back to safe healthy levels and made a lot of gains just through rest, diet and heavy weights. I was literally shut down almost a year. I did one week standard Nolva protocol at 40, because that's all I could stand. Then clomid at 150 for a few days about 3. Until it was just too much (meaning it was PMS plus my balls just can't hold any more sperm and were overly sensitive). Then down to 50/50/20/20.
Now f
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