Side effects: Long Term light/moderate HCG use

[CEDeoudes59]

Swale, correct me if I am misrepresenting your opinion on this: Do you believe that HCG can be used at 250iu x 2 a week for extended periods of time without causing LH desensitization?

'extended periods' can be 12weeks, 6months, 1years, forever... however you wish to define it

thank you sir

 

[bcachot]

Why so much? If I recall correctly he said in his article that he has never needed to to prescribe more than 2x200iu/w.

 

[earthdog]

CEDeoudes59: I believe that Swale would say that hCG can be used indefinitely at 250IU 2x per week without causing LH insensitivity.

bcachot: No, it's 250-500IU 2x per week.

 

[pmgamer18]

CEDeoudes59: I believe that Swale would say that hCG can be used indefinitely at 250IU 2x per week without causing LH insensitivity.

bcachot: No, it's 250-500IU 2x per week.

Here is a cut & paste on what he said.
Phil

It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition.

 

[Parteeman]

Swale has me on 100 iu of HCG ed and a low dose of transdermal test to try to restart my HPTA. Slow but steady progress so far.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

250ius E3D (every 3 days or 2 times a week) for the rest of my life (for example) - wouldn't actually desensitize the testies??

on all bodybuilding boards, I get the impression to use the least HCG possible and as infequently as possible...

any comments?
thanks so far!

 

[HeadDoc]

the hrt doses are chosen for frequent, long term use. There's no recovery, no pct. The other boards may be touting AAS use of hormones and what they say may well be try. Just remember, they use testosterone the same way and then have to recover. People can live life long supplementing hormones--talk to any diabetic. Used appropriately, diabetics do not become insulin resistant on insulin. However, if you used insulin the way some bodybuilders do, your health and life itself is at risk.

Before I get flamed by every bodybuilder on the board, I agree, I have no data on the frequency with which BB'er become insulin resistant.

 

[HeadDoc]

the hrt doses are chosen for frequent, long term use. There's no recovery, no pct. The other boards may be touting AAS use of hormones and what they say may well be true. Just remember, they use testosterone the same way and then have to recover. People can live life long supplementing hormones--talk to any diabetic. Used appropriately, diabetics do not become insulin resistant on insulin. However, if you used insulin the way some bodybuilders do, your health and life itself is at risk.

Before I get flamed by every bodybuilder on the board, I agree, I have no data on the frequency with which BB'er become insulin resistant.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

Thanks for your reply HeadDoc, and your honesty.

I think the reason most Bodybuilders are resistant to weekly HCG supplementing - is because they only have experience with the (3000iu, 1500iu, 1000iu) protocol in the later part of cycles. Only now (greatly in part to swale's HCG protocol), can shutdown not be an issue.

just a basic question,
do most TRT/HRT protocols include HCG?

or is there simply no point?
testicular atrophy (and complete HPTA shutdown) freaks me out personality.

maybe my question is, there significant atrophy at a dose ranging from 125mg-250mg of Test E?

 

[HeadDoc]

most of the guys here are using hcg and not just to maintain the size of their testis. Hcg enhances mood and invigorates beyond what the testosterone is doing.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

i see... and I would agree with that means of therapy

i don't know why so many bodybuilders are resistant to the idea of
250mg Test E / wk.
250ius HCG ~every 3 days

assuming regular bloodwork, I don't see the long-term side effects or permanent HPTA shutdown (at 125mg-250mg of Test E)...

am i missing something though?
thanks for sticking with me here, this is the only real (and best) TRT forum i've come upon.

 

[HeadDoc]

the need to use hormone anabolically is a very interesting and complex issue.

Your concern about shutting down the htpa is important. It was for me the last issue I really needed to deal with before started hrt. First, I don't think that most of us consider hrt before there is some evidence of an impairment somewhere within the axis. For most of us, there is probably a mixture of factors. Next, even when the data support an intervention, the axis is not full suppressed when we start to use exongenous test. Next, when hcg is added, it not only stimulates the body's own testosterone production, it also stimulates the release of pregnenolone. Hence the axis is being stimulated as a whole. It is this later action that I believe adds that increased sense of wellbeing and enhanced mood.

 

[bcachot]

i see... and I would agree with that means of therapy

i don't know why so many bodybuilders are resistant to the idea of
250mg Test E / wk.
250ius HCG ~every 3 days

assuming regular bloodwork, I don't see the long-term side effects or permanent HPTA shutdown (at 125mg-250mg of Test E)...

am i missing something though?
thanks for sticking with me here, this is the only real (and best) TRT forum i've come upon.

Ive often wondered the same thing myself about the HCG. If you are doing AAS levels of testosterone, shouldnt the testes be stimulated throughout a cycle rather than bringing them back from the dead at the end? I suspect its because a lot of what goes around is brotelligence/trial-error and not based on an understanding of how the body and these drugs work.

 

[bcachot]

CEDeoudes59: I believe that Swale would say that hCG can be used indefinitely at 250IU 2x per week without causing LH insensitivity.

bcachot: No, it's 250-500IU 2x per week.

Actually neither of us was quite accurate:

"In my previous report I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test cyp injection. After looking at countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and learning more about HCG, I am now shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required)."

taken from AN UPDATE TO THE CRISLER HCG PROTOCOL

By John Crisler, DO

 

[CEDeoudes59]

perhaps a stupid question, perhaps not...

I know sterility can be an issue when going above ~200mg of Test for HRT. If HCG is added into the protocol, I am assuming the testis continue to produce sperm (as HCG mimics LH, and HPTA function is normal if not elavated).

am i correct?

 

[pmgamer18]

I am doing 150 mgs. of Depo T every week and 500 IU's of HCG 3 times a week MWF. After the 15th shot I have me blood tested and my levels went from 650 to 1138 range 262 to 1583 for a young man on Total T. I am feeling the best I every felt in the 21 yrs. I have been on TRT. From what I have read you can do up to 500 IU with out a problem. I think I read it at the AACE Guildlines.
http://www.aace.com/clin/guidelines/hypogonadism.pdf
I think it is on page 13.
If on my next blood test my levels are higher what do I do lower the T or the Hcg.
Phil

 

[Matt Muscle]

i see... and I would agree with that means of therapy

i don't know why so many bodybuilders are resistant to the idea of
250mg Test E / wk.
250ius HCG ~every 3 days

assuming regular bloodwork, I don't see the long-term side effects or permanent HPTA shutdown (at 125mg-250mg of Test E)...

am i missing something though?
thanks for sticking with me here, this is the only real (and best) TRT forum i've come upon.

Taking a small dose of hCG (250iu twice a week) throughout an entire cycle of AAS, is far superior to the method of bombing your testes with it at the end... I am only mentioning this as an answer to your question... as Swale does not like AAS talk here.
You mention a range of 125-250,..250 mgs of T a week is a supraphysiological dose.... it will lead to many health problems.. 125 for some guys will also be too high.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

thanks for the reply matt!
I'll keep the AAS talk away from here.
250mg would put t-levels well above 1000 in most - so i've heard.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

Here is the dose response of plasma total testosterone to injection of testosterone enanthate for 16 weeks:

Dose / Before / After / Change / p-value
25 mg / 593 48 / 253 66 / 340 85 / 0.0029
50 mg / 566 78 / 306 58 / 260 64 / 0.0037
125 mg / 553 53 / 570 75 / 57 75 / 0.7425
300 mg / 653 50 / 1,345 139 / 691 143 / 0.0005
600 mg / 632 63 / 2,370 150 / 1,737 156 / 0.0001


Taken From:

Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Dec;281(6):E1172-81.

Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men.

Bhasin S, Woodhouse L, Casaburi R, Singh AB, Bhasin D, Berman N, Chen X, Yarasheski KE, Magliano L, Dzekov C, Dzekov J, Bross R, Phillips J, Sinha-Hikim I, Shen R, Storer TW.