Simplicity, consistency, accountability

[twreck555]

Hey guys figured I'd start a log. Guess this will be just a quick intro. Having a bit of a reload and regroup week so figured this would be an ideal time to collect my thoughts.

I'm 45, 6,3", 206 this AM. Lifelong recreational lifter and outdoor athlete. Started TRT in September and straight away jumped on HGH as well. Have dabbled since with primo and anavar, but that's the extent of my AAS experience. Currently cruising on:

Test C 210/wk
HGH 3 iu/d
Retatrutide 4.2 mg/wk

Reta in place for overall health effects as well as helping me not eat like an asshole. Will titrate as goals and training/diet phase dictate.

I am curious to run proper cycles but we'll see, right now I realize I have a ton to gain from the above and so I'm in no rush. I have legit gained 10+ lean pounds already since September. Would love to mostly max put the potential of the above and then consider the next move.

Was mostly a climber for decades and have definitely climbed a lot of cool shit in my career but recently injuries and overall age have led me to question whether that is a sport that I can or even want to continue to participate in at a high level. Mainly, I have grade 4 chondromalacia in my left knee which has caused intermittently debilitating pain and swelling over the last three years. I finally had surgery in September and it feels way better now but there is a lot of damage in there which could not be repaired without a second much more extensive surgery. I would like to avoid this second surgery. For now, I can hike and squat and I am happy with this. I have been avoiding any higher impact activities for the moment including falling off of rocks but it's possible that this will again become an option in the future. For now, because of the surgery and recovery, I have focused on what I can do safely which is lifting and hiking. This foray into lifting and how my body has responded has taught me a lot, including the fact that the physique that I have always imagined as my ideal is in fact much heavier than I had realized. In fact, it has made me realize that actually my physique goals and climbing goals may be completely incompatible with each other and that I may need to choose one or the other to focus on at the expense of the other. So I'm doing soul a bit of soul searching to see which path I think will give me the most happiness in the long run.

I titled my log what I did because I am a person who gets lost in the details, who fails to see the forest for the trees, who spends way too much time figuring out the perfect diet and then doesn't follow it, or writing training plans that are too ambitious or complex to actually follow. So my goal with this is to keep myself on track and to consistently follow a simple plan which will allow me to progress towards my goals.

Although as mentioned above my long term goals are not 100% clear to me, in the short run I plan to focus on building muscle mass for some time and then focus on getting as lean as possible going into the summer.

Because my consistency and adherence with my own plan has been so sporadic I currently need to spend a little time figuring out some basic information such as where my isocaloric point actually is. To get started, I wrote out a basic diet last night using B Chavez's Sticky Note Sports nutrition and it looks like this:

Rest days (4):
P208 F46 C211 Cal 2090

Training days (3):
P274 F48 C306 Cal 2752

Average across the week:
P236 F47 C252 Cal 2375

My goal is to hit all the macros +/- 5%, and I think with these targets that should be fairly easy for me to do. This is my best guess at what 'maintenance ' is for my body and activity level. I could be wrong but my first goal is to just run this for a few weeks so I can see what happens. I cook almost all of my own food and try to keep it as healthy as possible.

As far as training I train full body every Wed Fri Sunday, using an A/B split. It's a basic balanced program and I'll post the details later but basically trying to hit every major movement pattern every workout but alternating exercises and rep schemes between A and B, a mix of hypertrophy and strength work but more hypertrophy than strength, a mix of barbell, dumbbell, and cable work. I train at home so no machines yet but I can get done what I need to do.

I love cardio and do a little every day. Don't currently have a specific goal but usually it's whatever I have the time and energy for. 90% of the time this is hiking with my dog, usually with added weight for extra stimulus.

I try to take proper check in pics every week as well as measurements. This week I did get the pics but no measurements lol. I'm terrible at posing so I apologize. And the obligatory bathroom selfie lol. Will post training plans and more details later.

 

[Jin23]

As you said "TRT" I gotta ask; what's your TT on 210mg's? I presume it's high, not only because of the high milligram number but also because you gained 10 pounds since september ...

 

[twreck555]

As you said "TRT" I gotta ask; what's your TT on 210mg's? I presume it's high, not only because of the high milligram number but also because you gained 10 pounds since september ...

Ha fair play. >1500. Dunno exactly. I mean, it's not really TRT at this point more of a heavy cruise I guess. I was up to 210 test plus 105 primo, switched it up to 280 test 70 primo because my e2 was low, then backed off to 210 test only because, honestly, I just didn't feel that great. And in hindsight I just don't think my body was ready for that... OR... primo isn't the drug for me. So, going to stay here, bloodwork in December, consider the next move. May go down, may go up, may just stay where I'm at. Likely the last option. Feeling better on the day to day off primo. Still growing

 

[Jin23]

Ha fair play. >1500. Dunno exactly. I mean, it's not really TRT at this point more of a heavy cruise I guess. I was up to 210 test plus 105 primo, switched it up to 280 test 70 primo because my e2 was low, then backed off to 210 test only because, honestly, I just didn't feel that great. And in hindsight I just don't think my body was ready for that... OR... primo isn't the drug for me. So, going to stay here, bloodwork in December, consider the next move. May go down, may go up, may just stay where I'm at. Likely the last option. Feeling better on the day to day off primo. Still growing

I apologize if I presume too much by you planning on staying on 1500+ indefinitely. But this is my general warning - if this is actually your plan ...

Staying above 1500 (you are probably around 2000 Tmax) is a cycle and you wont feel good staying on such a high dose in the long run. Some people would call where you are at now "the honeymoon phase" - as you might imagine, as it's implicit in the phrase; this is only a phase, it wont last. Eventually your brain will give up, neurobiology will follow a pattern of change which can be very similar to depressed patients with a caveat of possible epigenetic changes.

Be careful, as you don't want do be an impulsive, sleepless, panicky, anxiety ridden wreck 2, 3 years from now. You should start at a solid baseline, get acquainted with it, so you now what works and can always come back to it, and only then start messing with it. It seems like you promised yourself a good time by going on the "juice", but this is a very slippery slope, leading to possible addiction, personality/mood changes, etc. I see a lot of this type of rationale in the aas community, as people basically want to ease their anxiety of death by going on high TRT and beyond dosages. But it's basically just an invitation to decadence ...

Certainly a responsible pattern of drug use, or if you want to call it "bio hacking", is by first establishing a coherent, safe and predictable drug response curve and only then deviating from the known into the unknown. This means staying a year or two, or finding, your sweet spot for TRT, seeing how you respond, mentally and physically.

Drug response, it's very intraindividual, some respond better and some not so much, but keep in mind that AAS forums (and social media in general) filter out a lot of individuals who don’t respond well to steroids, so it's very easy to get a wrong representation of the actual aas using populations drug tolerance/response. And couple that with your subjective filters/wants and the fact that the aas users also hide/don't talk about a lot sides and you've just stepped of the buss in the fairytale land.

Btw, what were your levels before you hopped on?

 

[readalot]

Be careful, as you don't want do be an impulsive, sleepless, panicky, anxiety ridden wreck 2, 3 years from now.

Hey, fuck off Mr! J/K.

What he said OP!

That was incredible @Jin23.

 

[Grey Spartan]

Certainly a responsible pattern of drug use, or if you want to call it "bio hacking", is by first establishing a coherent, safe and predictable drug response curve and only then deviating from the known into the unknown. This means staying a year or two, or finding, your sweet spot for TRT, seeing how you respond, mentally and physically.

This right here is probably the best advice I have read on this forum yet.

 

[twreck555]

I apologize if I presume too much by you planning on staying on 1500+ indefinitely. But this is my general warning - if this is actually your plan ...

Staying above 1500 (you are probably around 2000 Tmax) is a cycle and you wont feel good staying on such a high dose in the long run. Some people would call where you are at now "the honeymoon phase" - as you might imagine, as it's implicit in the phrase; this is only a phase, it wont last. Eventually your brain will give up, neurobiology will follow a pattern of change which can be very similar to depressed patients with a caveat of possible epigenetic changes.

Be careful, as you don't want do be an impulsive, sleepless, panicky, anxiety ridden wreck 2, 3 years from now. You should start at a solid baseline, get acquainted with it, so you now what works and can always come back to it, and only then start messing with it. It seems like you promised yourself a good time by going on the "juice", but this is a very slippery slope, leading to possible addiction, personality/mood changes, etc. I see a lot of this type of rationale in the aas community, as people basically want to ease their anxiety of death by going on high TRT and beyond dosages. But it's basically just an invitation to decadence ...

Certainly a responsible pattern of drug use, or if you want to call it "bio hacking", is by first establishing a coherent, safe and predictable drug response curve and only then deviating from the known into the unknown. This means staying a year or two, or finding, your sweet spot for TRT, seeing how you respond, mentally and physically.

Drug response, it's very intraindividual, some respond better and some not so much, but keep in mind that AAS forums (and social media in general) filter out a lot of individuals who don’t respond well to steroids, so it's very easy to get a wrong representation of the actual aas using populations drug tolerance/response. And couple that with your subjective filters/wants and the fact that the aas users also hide/don't talk about a lot sides and you've just stepped of the buss in the fairytale land.

Btw, what were your levels before you hopped on?

Thank you for this. Quite seriously, this is excellent advice.

I'm pulling labs again 12/11. In your opinion, then, I should be attempting to find a level that is still within the normal range, correct? I presume this is the case but the TRT as initially prescribed was 100 twice a week and instead I did 30/day and called it close enough. So the >1500 was not a trough dose, I literally had injected 30 mg only hours before, but I'm guessing that must be my level every day as I inject daily.

As I said, I need to carefully consider my next move. Perhaps the wisest choice will be backing down further.

My initial levels were total ~500 with low free t ~5 and low e2, shbg sky high I believe from the fact that I am recovering from kratom dependency and currently on suboxone. T, e2, and shbg levels interestingly were similar on the kratom as they are on the suboxone. Apparently opiates increase increase shbg by increasing prolactin? Not sure the mechanism there. Couple that with many years of party drugs, alcohol, nicotine, etc. Not coming from a good place mentally or physically, to be honest.

I imagine that you are 100% correct and finding a stable TRT dose will have me feeling the best in the long run. That, and completing my taper off of suboxone. Which, come to think of it, today was another step of many in that process (down to 3 mg/d, from 4). Many steps left to go as they necessarily must become smaller and smaller with each additional step.

Shooting the moon with AAS is probably the last thing I should be doing, honestly. For my body or my mind. At best a distraction from the real work and at worst a new path to disaster.

I will say this, though, to my credit, before you all write me off as a complete fuck up. I've been clean off kratom and all recreational drugs, for, well, it'll be a year exactly on the day of my bloodwork appointment, 12/11. I can count on one hand the occasions in that year when I've consumed alcohol. My diet and training, though not perfect, are 1000% better now than they were a year ago. So there's all of those blessings to count. And a big part of how all of this came to be possible was by falling back in love with the grind of training, eating right, and seeing the results manifest in the mirror.

But I get it, I really do. I recognize that I got distracted by a shiny new toy and forgot, momentarily, that the foundation of healthy daily habits is absolutely necessary in order to support those changes that can be seen visually. That the visual change is just that little reward to get you to keep doing the things that are really important which are: eat right, train hard, drink water, get enough sleep and sunshine, nurture connections with other humans, and just look after your physical and mental health.

The reflection in the mirror is not the goal itself.

I did lose sight of that for a moment. Hence the title of the log, to refocus on that which truly matters. And to be honest I think that's why I started the log , because somehow I knew, I just knew that someone would tell me exactly what you just told me. I just did not expect it to be so well thought out or well written.

So thank you, deeply and sincerely. It feels like you took one look at the original post and you could see all the way into my soul.

 

[twreck555]

I apologize if I presume too much by you planning on staying on 1500+ indefinitely. But this is my general warning - if this is actually your plan ...

Staying above 1500 (you are probably around 2000 Tmax) is a cycle and you wont feel good staying on such a high dose in the long run. Some people would call where you are at now "the honeymoon phase" - as you might imagine, as it's implicit in the phrase; this is only a phase, it wont last. Eventually your brain will give up, neurobiology will follow a pattern of change which can be very similar to depressed patients with a caveat of possible epigenetic changes.

Be careful, as you don't want do be an impulsive, sleepless, panicky, anxiety ridden wreck 2, 3 years from now. You should start at a solid baseline, get acquainted with it, so you now what works and can always come back to it, and only then start messing with it. It seems like you promised yourself a good time by going on the "juice", but this is a very slippery slope, leading to possible addiction, personality/mood changes, etc. I see a lot of this type of rationale in the aas community, as people basically want to ease their anxiety of death by going on high TRT and beyond dosages. But it's basically just an invitation to decadence ...

Certainly a responsible pattern of drug use, or if you want to call it "bio hacking", is by first establishing a coherent, safe and predictable drug response curve and only then deviating from the known into the unknown. This means staying a year or two, or finding, your sweet spot for TRT, seeing how you respond, mentally and physically.

Drug response, it's very intraindividual, some respond better and some not so much, but keep in mind that AAS forums (and social media in general) filter out a lot of individuals who don’t respond well to steroids, so it's very easy to get a wrong representation of the actual aas using populations drug tolerance/response. And couple that with your subjective filters/wants and the fact that the aas users also hide/don't talk about a lot sides and you've just stepped of the buss in the fairytale land.

Btw, what were your levels before you hopped on?

So obviously in your opinion testosterone should be the only androgen for the first 1-2 years and only at HRT dosage. Do you think it's ok to leave the HGH in? And if so, or not, why or why not? Genuinely interested in your viewpoint.

Pretty damn attached to the reta, not going to lie. It's like a cheat code for diet adherence that I've never experienced prior to starting semaglutide earlier this fall, but I prefer reta as it's much more mild. Sema is a sledgehammer

 

[MrTexas2]

49 years of bodybuilding and S and C coach. My advice would be to hit body parts less frequently.

I did not read everything but if training 3 days a week I would split my body over 2 sessions, say an A day and a B day. Lower body/upper.

And yes, stay conservative w/ anabolic.

 

[twreck555]

49 years of bodybuilding and S and C coach. My advice would be to hit body parts less frequently.

I did not read everything but if training 3 days a week I would split my body over 2 sessions, say an A day and a B day. Lower body/upper.

And yes, stay conservative w/ anabolic.

Hey thanks for that. I did consider an upper lower split and actually that is appealing for many reasons, one of which is the sessions can be a bit shorter and there's less to warm up. Another reason is that if splitting upper/lower I could actually train four days per week. The only problem with that plan is that due to my work schedule three of the training days would be consecutive. So it would be: lower, rest, upper, lower, upper, rest, rest. Though I know the three consecutive days isn't ideal, does this seem feasible? I'd love to hit everything twice per week. Alternatively the upper/lower 3x/wk also sounds good. Those full body sessions are grueling.

 

[Jin23]

Thank you for this. Quite seriously, this is excellent advice.

I'm pulling labs again 12/11. In your opinion, then, I should be attempting to find a level that is still within the normal range, correct? I presume this is the case but the TRT as initially prescribed was 100 twice a week and instead I did 30/day and called it close enough. So the >1500 was not a trough dose, I literally had injected 30 mg only hours before, but I'm guessing that must be my level every day as I inject daily.

As I said, I need to carefully consider my next move. Perhaps the wisest choice will be backing down further.

My initial levels were total ~500 with low free t ~5 and low e2, shbg sky high I believe from the fact that I am recovering from kratom dependency and currently on suboxone. T, e2, and shbg levels interestingly were similar on the kratom as they are on the suboxone. Apparently opiates increase increase shbg by increasing prolactin? Not sure the mechanism there. Couple that with many years of party drugs, alcohol, nicotine, etc. Not coming from a good place mentally or physically, to be honest.

I imagine that you are 100% correct and finding a stable TRT dose will have me feeling the best in the long run. That, and completing my taper off of suboxone. Which, come to think of it, today was another step of many in that process (down to 3 mg/d, from 4). Many steps left to go as they necessarily must become smaller and smaller with each additional step.

Shooting the moon with AAS is probably the last thing I should be doing, honestly. For my body or my mind. At best a distraction from the real work and at worst a new path to disaster.

I will say this, though, to my credit, before you all write me off as a complete fuck up. I've been clean off kratom and all recreational drugs, for, well, it'll be a year exactly on the day of my bloodwork appointment, 12/11. I can count on one hand the occasions in that year when I've consumed alcohol. My diet and training, though not perfect, are 1000% better now than they were a year ago. So there's all of those blessings to count. And a big part of how all of this came to be possible was by falling back in love with the grind of training, eating right, and seeing the results manifest in the mirror.

But I get it, I really do. I recognize that I got distracted by a shiny new toy and forgot, momentarily, that the foundation of healthy daily habits is absolutely necessary in order to support those changes that can be seen visually. That the visual change is just that little reward to get you to keep doing the things that are really important which are: eat right, train hard, drink water, get enough sleep and sunshine, nurture connections with other humans, and just look after your physical and mental health.

The reflection in the mirror is not the goal itself.

I did lose sight of that for a moment. Hence the title of the log, to refocus on that which truly matters. And to be honest I think that's why I started the log , because somehow I knew, I just knew that someone would tell me exactly what you just told me. I just did not expect it to be so well thought out or well written.

So thank you, deeply and sincerely. It feels like you took one look at the original post and you could see all the way into my soul.

Good job on coming down from kratom and leaving all other drugs behind. I must say however, that you do not need trt. Your 500 ng/dl levels were normal, eu gonadal levels. The "TRT" clinic basically put you on a cycle, something that's possible only in America.

Given your history of drug use/abuse I would stay clear of aas. There is clearly something wrong with your brain reward system and aas will make that worse. And you can see for yourself how you've already gotten carried away, right at the start. Not to mention that you felt the need to hop on this protocol in the first place, as the high shbg is not due to an overreactive liver but due to drugs you're currently on.

In regards to dosing, TRT is 500 - 700 ng/dl range yes, same as you were before going on cycle. And yes, adjusting first to testosterone only and only then adding GH would be something I'd do myself. 3 IU's is also not an HRT dose for GH, which would fall somewhere around 1.5 iu's, respectively.

So let's get things straight. You did not go on trt but went on to B&C, which is another form of drug abuse, same as you did before, only now you've graduated to hormones (which is in a lot of respect's worse). I think you should ask yourself, why, why do you need this (psychologically), can't you live a fulfilled life without further messing with your body? And believe me, aas do mess with your brain reward system, potentially permanently, but unfortunately this is still pretty under researched. There is a chance you won't get more stable with aas use and will fall back down to other drug use with time.

 

[Jin23]

Hey thanks for that. I did consider an upper lower split and actually that is appealing for many reasons, one of which is the sessions can be a bit shorter and there's less to warm up. Another reason is that if splitting upper/lower I could actually train four days per week. The only problem with that plan is that due to my work schedule three of the training days would be consecutive. So it would be: lower, rest, upper, lower, upper, rest, rest. Though I know the three consecutive days isn't ideal, does this seem feasible? I'd love to hit everything twice per week. Alternatively the upper/lower 3x/wk also sounds good. Those full body sessions are grueling.

If training 3x a week, full body workout is perfect. I presume that's Monday Wednesday, Friday and weekends off? The SRA curve for most body part's is favourable for such a scenario and makes less sense to train less frequently. It's grueling though because your volume is too high. You are probably trying to hit your MRV for all the body part's all the time, which is unrealistic. Remember, you can't grow all your body all the time. You focus on a couple of muscles in a given mesocycle and the rest have volume on maintenance. And if you are doing a 3x week full body split, on each workout, prioritize push, then pull and then legs.

 

[Trenbolonetax]

Given your history of drug use/abuse I would stay clear of aas. There is clearly something wrong with your brain reward system and aas will make that worse. And you can see for yourself how you've already gotten carried away, right at the start. Not to mention that you felt the need to hop on this protocol in the first place, as the high shbg is not due to an overreactive liver but due to drugs you're currently on.

So let's get things straight. You did not go on trt but went on to B&C, which is another form of drug abuse, same as you did before, only now you've graduated to hormones (which is in a lot of respect's worse). I think you should ask yourself, why, why do you need this (psychologically), can't you live a fulfilled life without further messing with your body? And believe me, aas do mess with your brain reward system, potentially permanently, but unfortunately this is still pretty under researched. There is a chance you won't get more stable with aas use and will fall back down to other drug use with time.

I feel attacked.

But on a serious note...this is real shit, @twreck555. These are some really good questions to ponder.

If you choose not to stay clear of AAS, I would absolutely suggest steering clear of 19nors - those really screw with my brain reward system in any dose, and tren definitely makes me much more impulsive and less risk averse.

I'm pretty sure every single one of my "drug vacations," with the exception of one in the last several years, was while on tren.

I'm a perfect example of someone with a history of drug use / abuse / addiction issues starting back on AAS with the intent of using minimal effective doses to going full blown blast in less than 2 months. It's very clearly charted in my log.

As my doses have increased, I've started sleeping worse, enjoying life less, become slightly more irritable, and have noticed more "drug seeking" behavior / a desire to push doses further even though it's not serving me...sounds eerily similar to typical drug addiction, yea?

Be careful @twreck555; don't fall into the same but different trap.

Also would like to share my appreciation for @Jin23 levelheaded comments and discussion around this topic...it's certainly given me an opportunity to be introspective and reflect on my journey.

 

[Jin23]

I feel attacked.

But on a serious note...this is real shit, @twreck555. These are some really good questions to ponder.

If you choose not to stay clear of AAS, I would absolutely suggest steering clear of 19nors - those really screw with my brain reward system in any dose, and tren definitely makes me much more impulsive and less risk averse.

I'm pretty sure every single one of my "drug vacations," with the exception of one in the last several years, was while on tren.

I'm a perfect example of someone with a history of drug use / abuse / addiction issues starting back on AAS with the intent of using minimal effective doses to going full blown blast in less than 2 months. It's very clearly charted in my log.

As my doses have increased, I've started sleeping worse, enjoying life less, become slightly more irritable, and have noticed more "drug seeking" behavior / a desire to push doses further even though it's not serving me...sounds eerily similar to typical drug addiction, yea?

Be careful @twreck555; don't fall into the same but different trap.

Also would like to share my appreciation for @Jin23 levelheaded comments and discussion around this topic...it's certainly given me an opportunity to be introspective and reflect on my journey.

This is good stuff @Trenbolonetax

 

[readalot]

I see by your eagerness, and the wonder and hope which your eyes express, my friend, that you expect to be informed of the secret with which I am acquainted; that cannot be: listen patiently until the end of my story, and you will easily perceive why I am reserved upon that subject. I will not lead you on, unguarded and ardent as I then was, to your destruction and infallible misery. Learn from me, if not by my precepts, at least by my example, how dangerous is the acquirement of knowledge, and how much happier that man is who believes his native town to be the world, than he who aspires to become greater than his nature will allow.

[R]

Pretty amazing given AAS weren't around yet.

 

[twreck555]

[R]

Pretty amazing given AAS weren't around yet.

That was amazing. Was that Rumi? Have lots to reply to the preceding posts and no time lol. Later, though

 

[readalot]

That was amazing. Was that Rumi? Have lots to reply to the preceding posts and no time lol. Later, though

Shelley.

We reached the human apex some time ago.

 

[twreck555]

Good job on coming down from kratom and leaving all other drugs behind. I must say however, that you do not need trt. Your 500 ng/dl levels were normal, eu gonadal levels. The "TRT" clinic basically put you on a cycle, something that's possible only in America.

Given your history of drug use/abuse I would stay clear of aas. There is clearly something wrong with your brain reward system and aas will make that worse. And you can see for yourself how you've already gotten carried away, right at the start. Not to mention that you felt the need to hop on this protocol in the first place, as the high shbg is not due to an overreactive liver but due to drugs you're currently on.

In regards to dosing, TRT is 500 - 700 ng/dl range yes, same as you were before going on cycle. And yes, adjusting first to testosterone only and only then adding GH would be something I'd do myself. 3 IU's is also not an HRT dose for GH, which would fall somewhere around 1.5 iu's, respectively.

So let's get things straight. You did not go on trt but went on to B&C, which is another form of drug abuse, same as you did before, only now you've graduated to hormones (which is in a lot of respect's worse). I think you should ask yourself, why, why do you need this (psychologically), can't you live a fulfilled life without further messing with your body? And believe me, aas do mess with your brain reward system, potentially permanently, but unfortunately this is still pretty under researched. There is a chance you won't get more stable with aas use and will fall back down to other drug use with time.

Your advice and input as a whole is well put, relevant, and appreciated.

I never meant to misrepresent what I've done over the past few months as TRT, as other than the first month or so that was not what it was.

If you read carefully, I said I started on TRT and then dabbled with primo and anavar. Clearly primo and anavar are not trt. So yes, blasting and cruising, which in hindsight I now realize was a poor decision. Initially, however, it was actually TRT: the doc prescribed 200 mg/wk which I actually didn't do at first, I actually started at 100 mg/wk for the first month, because that seemed like a more logical starting dose from all the research i had done. And, actually, that was the place at which I felt the best. I felt better than I had in years.

I'm actually not interested in the question of whether or not I "needed" TRT. I benefited from it. It absolutely, 100% helped me, especially at the lower dosage. Did I "need" suboxone? Probably not, but, then again, im coming up on a year's sobriety so that's kind of hard to argue against. If the suboxone is causing the skewing of my baseline shbg, free t, and e2, it still isn't something that can just be pulled. It is recommended to leave at stable dosing for at least a year followed by a years titration to get off. Minimum. I started titrating down on it earlier than recommended because I'm eager to get off, but it's still going to be a while. i don't believe going on trt per se was a mistake, because even if I didn't "need" it by whatever metric you use to measure that, it increased my quality of life greatly given the situation i was in. Exactly as the suboxone did. So i don't think test was a mistake. I believe the mistake was titrating up, and adding other compounds. Those decisions were made not in a vacuum but under a coaches advice, and when it became clear that those compounds were not serving me, I removed them. The details of those decisions aren't that important and I can absolutely see in hindsight it was way too much way too soon and it must appear as if I were just haphazardly fucking about like a complete newb, which,admittedly, I am.

And that brings us to today and after carefully considering I have decided to titrate down further and at least attempt to find the top of the reference range rather than beyond. So further reducing test cyp down, to 21 mg/day, 147/week. Not sure how valid the labs will be on 12/11 as that's only two weeks out and perhaps I should make a new appointment because I doubt that the change from this titration will have time to fully manifest by then.

I appreciate everyone's feedback and support and will continue to do my best to focus on the important things and not get distracted by the details. The fitness space is so hyper saturated with information sometimes you just have to tune it out and do what you know. Eat, sleep, move.

 

[Grey Spartan]

So further reducing test cyp down, to 21 mg/day, 147/week.

I reduced my to 150 a week from 175 because @ 175 my levels were 1658 ng/dl. Mind you this is for my cruse phase. I started TRT at 50 then waited 5 years to start blasting and cruising.

If you do decide you:
Do not have an addictive personality
Do not have underlying mental issues
Do want to see what you can achieve at your age with PEDs
Do not mind the trade offs of blasting and cruising.

I suggest you stick with drugs that are made for and have been studied in humans. Test, Deca, Primo, Anavar, etc. The so called "safer model" of AAS use. This thread has given you a LOT of information to consider, but, your a grown ass man that knows you better than strangers on the internet. Document everything you do, get blood work at least every 3 months (I do once a month because data is king) and if its not fun or serving your goals don't do it. Oh, Tren isn't for humans but that shit is kick ass LOL.

 

[Jin23]

Your advice and input as a whole is well put, relevant, and appreciated.

I never meant to misrepresent what I've done over the past few months as TRT, as other than the first month or so that was not what it was.

If you read carefully, I said I started on TRT and then dabbled with primo and anavar. Clearly primo and anavar are not trt. So yes, blasting and cruising, which in hindsight I now realize was a poor decision. Initially, however, it was actually TRT: the doc prescribed 200 mg/wk which I actually didn't do at first, I actually started at 100 mg/wk for the first month, because that seemed like a more logical starting dose from all the research i had done. And, actually, that was the place at which I felt the best. I felt better than I had in years.

I'm actually not interested in the question of whether or not I "needed" TRT. I benefited from it. It absolutely, 100% helped me, especially at the lower dosage. Did I "need" suboxone? Probably not, but, then again, im coming up on a year's sobriety so that's kind of hard to argue against. If the suboxone is causing the skewing of my baseline shbg, free t, and e2, it still isn't something that can just be pulled. It is recommended to leave at stable dosing for at least a year followed by a years titration to get off. Minimum. I started titrating down on it earlier than recommended because I'm eager to get off, but it's still going to be a while. i don't believe going on trt per se was a mistake, because even if I didn't "need" it by whatever metric you use to measure that, it increased my quality of life greatly given the situation i was in. Exactly as the suboxone did. So i don't think test was a mistake. I believe the mistake was titrating up, and adding other compounds. Those decisions were made not in a vacuum but under a coaches advice, and when it became clear that those compounds were not serving me, I removed them. The details of those decisions aren't that important and I can absolutely see in hindsight it was way too much way too soon and it must appear as if I were just haphazardly fucking about like a complete newb, which,admittedly, I am.

And that brings us to today and after carefully considering I have decided to titrate down further and at least attempt to find the top of the reference range rather than beyond. So further reducing test cyp down, to 21 mg/day, 147/week. Not sure how valid the labs will be on 12/11 as that's only two weeks out and perhaps I should make a new appointment because I doubt that the change from this titration will have time to fully manifest by then.

I appreciate everyone's feedback and support and will continue to do my best to focus on the important things and not get distracted by the details. The fitness space is so hyper saturated with information sometimes you just have to tune it out and do what you know. Eat, sleep, move.

Top of the reference range isn't some magical number where you'll be OK. Especially if that means 1200 ngdl, which is app 2x the normal TT level.

If you want stability, or maybe a better term would be "well being", shoot for the upper 3/4 free T range and stay there. Going to the upper range of what maybe some teenager genetic phenoms have, ie. 1000+ ng/dl, is again problematic and can potentially lead to burn out and all the other things we discussed before. And keep in mind, naturally very high TT levels are usually followed by a high SHBG.

Anyway, you got access to labs, so adjust your dosages, pull bloods and re-evaluate.

The doc's 200 mg's TRT wasn't TRT and your decision to stay at 100 was definitely the right call.

I still think that taking hormones in to your own hands as somebody who has issues with drug seeking behavior is problematic and should be avoided (you can still take a low dose enclomiphene and see your levels rise to 800 + ...), however you do you, I've said my peace.

@readalot can help you on calculating or measuring free T numbers.