So if no Finestride....then what do you use?

For me, though, I would rather be bald than face the prospect of permanent sexual side effects.


Well that's your choice but the chance of anything permanent happening is VERY slim.



I am actually planning on getting an HT from Dr. Cole in Atlanta. I have heard good things and am impressed with his work. I definitely hear you about doing an HT without propecia. I am fairly confident that I can hold the fort down with Xandrox and spiro. If not, then I will most likely have to give in and shave my head.


Hair loss can not be predicted, Propecia could stop working for me today and I could lose a ton of hair rather quickly. To say you are fairly confident you can maintain with Spiro and Xandrox is just a guess. I'm sure you did you research and realize this, as far as shaving your head I'm guessing you are getting FUE ? Fue doesn't have nearly the yield or graft survival of strip , I'm sure you heard of Dr Armani and how he was having patiients sign disclosures and if they posted anything negative about him they could be sued. His whole FUE was a big scam and I heard he has even closed his Beverly Hills office

Shapiro and Feller both do FUE and I would consult with all 3 Dr's before making a decision and this biggest thing is to see PATIENTS IN PERSON not in photos.

How old are you and how many grafts do you need ? HT's before age 30 are very risky.

Good Luck.
 
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Thanks for all the options guys...... I hate the body hair I have grown since I started TRT....... plus with my normally thin hair looking like it cold get worse I think I am going to try the Fin..... Will let you know what happens.....

Any body know how long before you start seeing or feeling any results or sides.....?
 
SOrry I had to chime in here and stop reading...... The first place a man gains body hair is his calves. Is it any coincidence that dying old men have no calve hair. I have to go with Eugene Shippen here. He states that if the body is low on testosterone then give it to it. He states the prpostate fails from lack of, not overexposure with time. I have bet my bank stock here. It makes sence. If an eye lacks a vitamin, are you gonna let yourself go blind. If your body is short of proper insuline, are you going to let yourself die????? I think its kinda funny in a way. They say that finestaride will cut dht and thus prolong life, when in fact, you are on ly killling yourself by denying it. Body hair and baldness is nothing to be ashamed of. Its natural for those who are blessed. In fact, it is a sign of verility in countries not a veign, like Rome, and the US.....................:eek:

I have to agree with Lou...I've been on the drug for 2 years or so now with no problems whatsoever, albeit I am only on 0.5mg so take that for what it's worth. Hairloss has come to a screeching halt...as an added bonus in my book I lost quite a bit of body hair (sorry not a fan of back hair...lol.) My brother has been on it since age 19 and is now 30...no problems either and has the hair of a 12 year old after rapidly losing hair at 18 and being destined for baldness. I am also a patient of a very well respected member of this forum, Dr. Mariano, so I do know he prescribes it, just in lower doses typically.
 
They say that finestaride will cut dht and thus prolong life, when in fact, you are only killling yourself by denying it.



Congratulations you have now taken the whole fin side effects to a new level.


People don't worry aboiut any POSSIBLE side from finasteride as if you use it you wil die !!

BTW my dad is in his 80's and has a ton of calf hair, I guess I better let him know he'll be alive for a while, lol
 
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Sounds to me like the Fin bashers are suffering from elevated E2. I mean c'mon, why all the drama??? It's like an agenda. No one is making you take the stuff.
 
Well that's your choice but the chance of anything permanent happening is VERY slim.

Probability of harm is only one factor; the other factor is degree of harm, which in the case of what would amount to chemical castration, is quite high. Even unlikely occurrences that could result in significant harm are best avoided. This is why it is a bad idea to stand outside in an open field during a thunderstorm.

You've made the leap and have gotten lucky, in my opinion. But that does not make your choice prudent.

Hair loss can not be predicted, Propecia could stop working for me today and I could lose a ton of hair rather quickly. To say you are fairly confident you can maintain with Spiro and Xandrox is just a guess. I'm sure you did you research and realize this, as far as shaving your head I'm guessing you are getting FUE ? Fue doesn't have nearly the yield or graft survival of strip , I'm sure you heard of Dr Armani and how he was having patiients sign disclosures and if they posted anything negative about him they could be sued. His whole FUE was a big scam and I heard he has even closed his Beverly Hills office

Shapiro and Feller both do FUE and I would consult with all 3 Dr's before making a decision and this biggest thing is to see PATIENTS IN PERSON not in photos.

How old are you and how many grafts do you need ? HT's before age 30 are very risky.

Good Luck.

I keep my hair trimmed short because having long hair with this degree of hair loss is just sort of silly. More importantly, spiro is ridiculously hard to apply with longer hair. Basically, I already look pretty similar to Jason Statham with the facial hair and his degree of loss. If I can fill it in a little, I'll be thrilled.

Dr. Cole does something that sounds similar to FUE. I am looking for probably 1,000--2,000 grafts. I am 27 now, and plan to do this in the next 6 months.
 
Sounds to me like the Fin bashers are suffering from elevated E2. I mean c'mon, why all the drama??? It's like an agenda. No one is making you take the stuff.

Not sure if your comment was direct at me, but I think my comments regarding finasteride have been as even handed as possible. You guys act like the pill is designed specifically to grow hair/prevent hair loss. It's not. It is designed to eradicate the hormone---DHT---that is thought to be the cause of hairloss. Unless you believe that the body's production of DHT is arbitrary and superfluous, then lowering this hormone in such a fashion must have some side effects on the body.

Can some men adapt to this and come out relatively unscathed? Apparently they can. But the prospect that one might not be so lucky, and therefore end up with chronically and seemingly permanent reduction in sexual function, makes many men---myself included---very reluctant to take the plunge.

I think it is especially significant that many doctors who work in hormone problems---and are therefore exposed to a number of men who have had "side effects" from finasteride---vehemently oppose its use.

I am not saying finasteride is absolutely the devil, just that it is very risky.
 
I keep my hair trimmed short because having long hair with this degree of hair loss is just sort of silly. More importantly, spiro is ridiculously hard to apply with longer hair. Basically, I already look pretty similar to Jason Statham with the facial hair and his degree of loss. If I can fill it in a little, I'll be thrilled.

Dr. Cole does something that sounds similar to FUE. I am looking for probably 1,000--2,000 grafts. I am 27 now, and plan to do this in the next 6 months.

I'm just wondering how much research you have done on HT's ?

1000 grafts is a very small transplant but your comments make me believe your hair loss is much worse than that.

How did you come up with the 1-2K figure ? JAson Stathon is heading towards NW 7.

He would need 3K minumum to fill in his frontal alone

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,1515806,00.html

If you have that much hair loss at age 27 you are nuts getting a transplant even with Propecia !

The best advice you will ever get is make the trip to see Ron Shapiro in Mn, He will lay it out for you and turns MANY young guys with excessive hair loss away. He is the only Dr who does this and he will lay it out for you
 
Thanks for the posts, Lou. My loss is no where near as extensive as Statham's. My point with that remark was that I wear a similar hairstyle (short hair) and facial hair, and intend to keep the look since females seem to like it quite a bit.

In any event, I am judging from the pics I've seen on my estimation of the number of grafts I'd need. My most significant loss is in the front 1/4 of my scalp. The remainder of the scalp is very mild. It is the front that, in a small area, is basically devastated.

I am also not expecting to have solid coverage after an HT. I don't mind the vertex loss all that much, to be honest. It is the front loss that bothers me most. My hope would be to come out of the procedure looking like a guy that has general thinning, but without a glaring bald area at the front. I think those are reasonable expectations.
 
I tried proscar for 3 months and it didn't work. Now I use minoxidil to keep the little that I have. I used to have hair down to my shoulders, now I'm practically bald due to genetics. The steroids only speed up the loss and I take medicine for BHP.
 
I think it is silly to deny side effects from Finasteride. The drug's entire efficacy depends on reducing serum DHT to a significant degree.

While it deceases serum DHT, I believe its effect is by stopping the intracellular conversion at the scalp.

I also think this is (one reason) why some men may have sides.

Hairloss is not necessarily dependent on serum DHT, but DHT sensitive scalp. If someone had low-ish DHT to begin with, but a very DHT sensitive scalp, they might still lose hair. If this person also took finasteride, while they might lower hair loss, they might reduce their serum DHT to almost nonexistent levels.

This is why I cannot imagine a hair transplant doc/derm rxing finasteride without first running baseline hormone labs.

My serum DHT ON finasteride is just below top of range, I have no sides. My baseline DHT was over top of range, even before TRT.
 
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While it deceases serum DHT, I believe its effect is by stopping the intracellular conversion at the scalp.

I also think this is (one reason) why some men may have sides.

Hairloss is not necessarily dependent on serum DHT, but DHT sensitive scalp. If someone had low-ish DHT to begin with, but a very DHT sensitive scalp, they might still lose hair. If this person also took finasteride, while they might lower hair loss, they might reduce their serum DHT to almost nonexistent levels.

This is why I cannot imagine a hair transplant doc/derm rxing finasteride without first running baseline hormone labs.

My serum DHT ON finasteride is just below top of range, I have no sides. My baseline DHT was over top of range, even before TRT.

This is actually a really, really good point. Using DHT levels and scalp sensitivity as two independent factors yields the following possibilities:

1) Naturally high DHT; scalp very sensitive to DHT (highest risk of hairloss)
2) Naturally low DHT; scalp very sensitive to DHT (moderate risk of hairloss)
3) Naturally high DHT; scalp not sensitive to DHT (moderate risk of hairloss)
4) Naturally low DHT; scalp not sensitive to DHT (lowest risk of hairloss)

Obviously, there is room for someone to fall between those extremes. Nevertheless, in light of the above, men in the first and third categories would be ideal candidates for finasteride (assuming that finasteride's only effect is to lower DHT). The "best responders" to finasteride are probably men in the third category, and it is tempting to think that Lou is an example of one. Categories two and four should probably avoid it altogether.

Another factor may be pre-existing estrogen levels, Finasteride raises estrogen levels in two interrelated ways: The first is that, by bottle-necking DHT conversion, it leaves more T available for aromatase converstion to E2. Second, because DHT itself is an aromatase inhibitor, there is actually more aromatase available to convert the T to E2. The result is that finasteride will almost certainly result in higher E2 levels. Thus, finasteride may be contradindicated for a man who already has high E2 levels.

I suspect that my DHT levels are naturally quite high, based on the other androgenic characteristics I have (deep voice, significant body hair, etc.). I also have very, very low E2. My E2 fluctuates between 7 and 13 with a TT of 720-750. I wouldn't be surprised if I have super high DHT levels that is suppressing my E2, causing hairloss, etc. I suspect, too, that based on the early onset of my hairloss, that I have a fairly sensitive scalp. I would suspect that I am in the first category and could possibly use finasteride without negative effects; a serum DHT test could confirm.

On the other hand, this is all just a theory. One troubling aspect is the reports of men who have diminished masculinity even after dropping finasteride and whose DHT levels apparently recover to pre-finasteride levels. This suggests that finasteride is doing something other than simply lowering DHT and that whatever that something is may be the real culprit.

This is also to say nothing of the fact that even if one has naturally very high DHT and are still within range even on finasteride, you have lost the "gift" of having naturally high DHT. It would be like telling a man whose TT is 1,200 that he will still be in range if he took a drug that dropped his TT to 800. He may still feel well relative to others, but he would be giving up something relative to himself. So it is with naturally high DHT levels.

To summarize: Anyone considering finasteride should get DHT checked. if it is mid-range or lower, I'd say finasteride is suicide. If it is at the top of the range or over, it might be an option.
 
I tried proscar for 3 months and it didn't work. Now I use minoxidil to keep the little that I have. I used to have hair down to my shoulders, now I'm practically bald due to genetics. The steroids only speed up the loss and I take medicine for BHP.

Well first you didn't give Fin nearly enough time to work and if you have MPB taking steroids is only going to speed it up even if you are on Fin
 
While it deceases serum DHT, I believe its effect is by stopping the intracellular conversion at the scalp.

I also think this is (one reason) why some men may have sides.

Hairloss is not necessarily dependent on serum DHT, but DHT sensitive scalp. If someone had low-ish DHT to begin with, but a very DHT sensitive scalp, they might still lose hair. If this person also took finasteride, while they might lower hair loss, they might reduce their serum DHT to almost nonexistent levels.

This is why I cannot imagine a hair transplant doc/derm rxing finasteride without first running baseline hormone labs.

My serum DHT ON finasteride is just below top of range, I have no sides. My baseline DHT was over top of range, even before TRT.

I'm guessing you are on TRT and fin ?

As you can see from my pics I got great results form fin , I have low T but it doesn't bother me so I don't treat it.

If I take even 100mg/week of test along with Fin (1.25mg/day) I start losing hair
 
I'm guessing you are on TRT and fin ?

As you can see from my pics I got great results form fin , I have low T but it doesn't bother me so I don't treat it.

If I take even 100mg/week of test along with Fin (1.25mg/day) I start losing hair

Yes, 1.25 eod.
 
This is actually a really, really good point. Using DHT levels and scalp sensitivity as two independent factors yields the following possibilities:

1) Naturally high DHT; scalp very sensitive to DHT (highest risk of hairloss)
2) Naturally low DHT; scalp very sensitive to DHT (moderate risk of hairloss)
3) Naturally high DHT; scalp not sensitive to DHT (moderate risk of hairloss)
4) Naturally low DHT; scalp not sensitive to DHT (lowest risk of hairloss)

Obviously, there is room for someone to fall between those extremes. Nevertheless, in light of the above, men in the first and third categories would be ideal candidates for finasteride (assuming that finasteride's only effect is to lower DHT). The "best responders" to finasteride are probably men in the third category, and it is tempting to think that Lou is an example of one. Categories two and four should probably avoid it altogether.

Another factor may be pre-existing estrogen levels, Finasteride raises estrogen levels in two interrelated ways: The first is that, by bottle-necking DHT conversion, it leaves more T available for aromatase converstion to E2. Second, because DHT itself is an aromatase inhibitor, there is actually more aromatase available to convert the T to E2. The result is that finasteride will almost certainly result in higher E2 levels. Thus, finasteride may be contradindicated for a man who already has high E2 levels.

I suspect that my DHT levels are naturally quite high, based on the other androgenic characteristics I have (deep voice, significant body hair, etc.). I also have very, very low E2. My E2 fluctuates between 7 and 13 with a TT of 720-750. I wouldn't be surprised if I have super high DHT levels that is suppressing my E2, causing hairloss, etc. I suspect, too, that based on the early onset of my hairloss, that I have a fairly sensitive scalp. I would suspect that I am in the first category and could possibly use finasteride without negative effects; a serum DHT test could confirm.

On the other hand, this is all just a theory. One troubling aspect is the reports of men who have diminished masculinity even after dropping finasteride and whose DHT levels apparently recover to pre-finasteride levels. This suggests that finasteride is doing something other than simply lowering DHT and that whatever that something is may be the real culprit.

This is also to say nothing of the fact that even if one has naturally very high DHT and are still within range even on finasteride, you have lost the "gift" of having naturally high DHT. It would be like telling a man whose TT is 1,200 that he will still be in range if he took a drug that dropped his TT to 800. He may still feel well relative to others, but he would be giving up something relative to himself. So it is with naturally high DHT levels.

To summarize: Anyone considering finasteride should get DHT checked. if it is mid-range or lower, I'd say finasteride is suicide. If it is at the top of the range or over, it might be an option.

I wonder if there is another mechanism at play.

I recall reading that 5AR also converts PROG-->allopregnenolone. Thus, I wonder if, by blocking the conversion of PROG, some men end up with elevated PROG levels (in the same way taking an AI increases T levels).

As I understand it, too much PROG can be feminizing in men. I also understand that PROG can not only increase E2 receptor sensitivity, but actually increase the number of E2 receptors, which, if true, could theoretically cause persistent side effects. I also understand th opposite is true; increase E2 increases PROG receptor sensitivity.

Further, given the same level of serum E2, one may exhibit more E2 effects, which sound like "finasteride syndrome" to me, and could also potentially account for normal looking labs with persistent side effects; the serum E2 level becomes a poor indicator of intracellular activity.

So, to sum:

1. An individual takes finasteride
2. DHT decreases (temporary?)
3. E2 increases (temporary?)
4. PROG increases (temporary?)
5. Number of E2 receptors increases (permanent?)
6. Sensitivity to E2 increases (permanent?)
7. Sensitivity to PROG increases (permanent?)

Or, i could just be completely off my rocker.

I can also imagine that in some men the abrupt cessation of finasteride could cause or exacerbate problems.

There's a reason bodybuilders do PCT.

But people take finasteride and decide to discontinue cold turkey, quickly altering their endocrine metabolism, and I think that asks for a problem.
 
I wonder if there is another mechanism at play.

I recall reading that 5AR also converts PROG-->allopregnenolone. Thus, I wonder if, by blocking the conversion of PROG, some men end up with elevated PROG levels (in the same way taking an AI increases T levels).

As I understand it, too much PROG can be feminizing in men. I also understand that PROG can not only increase E2 receptor sensitivity, but actually increase the number of E2 receptors, which, if true, could theoretically cause persistent side effects. I also understand th opposite is true; increase E2 increases PROG receptor sensitivity.

Further, given the same level of serum E2, one may exhibit more E2 effects, which sound like "finasteride syndrome" to me, and could also potentially account for normal looking labs with persistent side effects; the serum E2 level becomes a poor indicator of intracellular activity.

So, to sum:

1. An individual takes finasteride
2. DHT decreases (temporary?)
3. E2 increases (temporary?)
4. PROG increases (temporary?)
5. Number of E2 receptors increases (permanent?)
6. Sensitivity to E2 increases (permanent?)
7. Sensitivity to PROG increases (permanent?)

Or, i could just be completely off my rocker.

I can also imagine that in some men the abrupt cessation of finasteride could cause or exacerbate problems.

There's a reason bodybuilders do PCT.

But people take finasteride and decide to discontinue cold turkey, quickly altering their endocrine metabolism, and I think that asks for a problem.

Sounds like a possibility. Just as I believe that men can use finasteride without problems, I also believe the stories of men who have seemingly permanent effects from it. My progesterone is already out of range slightly, and I would hate to see it go up even more.

I treat with Dr. M, and I know that he is not as dead set against finasteride as Dr. J. I may have to ask him to shed some light into this situation. Xandrox, Nizoral, topical spironolactone, and finasteride would be the ultimate hairloss stack, IMO.
 
Thanks for the posts, Lou.


What do you think of how clean that FUE procedure From Shapiro looks only days out o surgery ?

Shaprio is the king of hairlines also,

I'm not 100% sure of this but I believe Shapiro hired away Coles CIT (FUE ) guy, you can call MAtt Zupan Shapiros rep and ask.

If that is true you may want to make sure Cole is still doing top notch work.
 
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