He is referring to the kid's father who started this thread... Even if he was legit, I fear we may have run off on technical tangent too far and run him off...[
)]
)]
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Steroid withdrawal help
- Thread starter galec1
- Start date
HPT function returns to normal after discontinuing steroids within several weeks to months in MOST individuals. One should never assume they will react to steroids like most people.
IF there a treatment/protocol that can restore HPT faster than the natural restoration of endogenous testosterone production, I think medical professionals should be ethically obligated to offer such a treatment.
Why wait several months when a PCT protocol can minimize it to a few weeks? I don't know of anything good that happens in a hypogonadic state. The shorter, the better.
IF there a treatment/protocol that can restore HPT faster than the natural restoration of endogenous testosterone production, I think medical professionals should be ethically obligated to offer such a treatment.
Why wait several months when a PCT protocol can minimize it to a few weeks? I don't know of anything good that happens in a hypogonadic state. The shorter, the better.
I don't know who you are quoting but it's not me !
I asked why YOU said in one sentence he was not going to grow tiitties from going cold turkey and them in the next sentence you said he may be on the verge of GYNO ? You never responded.
I stand by my statement that letting a guy who has been shut down for 16 months wait it out as opposed to getting on something like TAMOX ASAP is PURE NONSENSE !
Sorry, perhaps I should not have used quotes there and not even sure I saw so many posts. My bad.
What I was saying is that I believe gyno is a long process, kinda like cancer, in that there are many seeds sewn I am sure prior to physical manfestation that one can measure with the hand or eye. Meaning, he is probably well down the road to development on at least a cellular level. This of course would vary depending on ones on natural composition and level of development prior to AAS use.
All I was saying is that if he does not have a physical acknowledgement of it now (which may not be the case), then its not like he's gonna have a massive onset from steroid cessation.
I just disagree on the necessity of a SERM, but perhaps our reasons are differing still.
Consider he is in legal trouble, odds are he would see underground SERMS, and not a good idea now. The odds of him finding a doc to write him a SERM for the purpose of restart are NONE. I think someone around here did that once before, and the outcome was not all that great.
So sorry bout the mis-quote. No, he wont die, have a siezure, grow titties, not be able to get out of bed, from an immediate discontinuation. It wont be a perfect transition, but considering the circumstances was what the answer was designed for....
Really though, tell me why he should use a serm? What will he accomplish? First, just because a serum count is 200, or even 75, this does not mean TT is not transferring. Second, any benefit from a SERM as far as restart will fail soon after if he has amassed an unnatural amount of muscle for his genetic dispostion, simply because his body will not support the increased demands created in a supp'd situation. To me, SERMS are nothing more than a freaking TORTURE SESSION as a result of the action of the drug. Finally, do you really think he is ever gonna work out again without steroids?!?!!! By encouraging a SERM, you would simply be encouraging this lifestyle. He has legal trouble now. He needs to be done with this and move on to try to have a productive $$ life. That does not include 3 hours in the gym for most. I fear steroids are becomming another form of procrastination for many. "Baller" fantasy fuel. Nothing good ever comes from excess. Life is long and regret is a BITCH.
What I was saying is that I believe gyno is a long process, kinda like cancer, in that there are many seeds sewn I am sure prior to physical manfestation that one can measure with the hand or eye. Meaning, he is probably well down the road to development on at least a cellular level. This of course would vary depending on ones on natural composition and level of development prior to AAS use.
All I was saying is that if he does not have a physical acknowledgement of it now (which may not be the case), then its not like he's gonna have a massive onset from steroid cessation.
I just disagree on the necessity of a SERM, but perhaps our reasons are differing still.
Consider he is in legal trouble, odds are he would see underground SERMS, and not a good idea now. The odds of him finding a doc to write him a SERM for the purpose of restart are NONE. I think someone around here did that once before, and the outcome was not all that great.
So sorry bout the mis-quote. No, he wont die, have a siezure, grow titties, not be able to get out of bed, from an immediate discontinuation. It wont be a perfect transition, but considering the circumstances was what the answer was designed for....
Really though, tell me why he should use a serm? What will he accomplish? First, just because a serum count is 200, or even 75, this does not mean TT is not transferring. Second, any benefit from a SERM as far as restart will fail soon after if he has amassed an unnatural amount of muscle for his genetic dispostion, simply because his body will not support the increased demands created in a supp'd situation. To me, SERMS are nothing more than a freaking TORTURE SESSION as a result of the action of the drug. Finally, do you really think he is ever gonna work out again without steroids?!?!!! By encouraging a SERM, you would simply be encouraging this lifestyle. He has legal trouble now. He needs to be done with this and move on to try to have a productive $$ life. That does not include 3 hours in the gym for most. I fear steroids are becomming another form of procrastination for many. "Baller" fantasy fuel. Nothing good ever comes from excess. Life is long and regret is a BITCH.
Only as one had asked me to elaborate on a concept, SO to be clear......
My views on PCT have ALWAYS been that its a rediculous notion to take a drug many times riskier than say, Testosterone, and all in the name of bulking muscle that your body aint gonna hold anyway..... So thats all it is in a nutshell....
1. I DO believe that SERM use is an excellent form of cycle BRIDGE for SERIOUS athletes.
2. I DO believe that SERM use will increase SERUM COUNTS in the SHORT RUN.
3. I DO believe that SERM use could be an effective way to staive off GYNO if development potential is present.
All I was saying about RESETTING RECEPTOR PROFILES was meaning that, IF one were inclined to have androgen/estrogen imbalance, and have a preponderance of estrogenic activity cycling, the blockade created by the SERM post cycle my indeed help to diminish the activity thus creating a better active hormonal profile. Meaning - ESTROGEN LEADS TO ESTROGEN.
1. I DO believe there are MANY RECEPTORS throughout the body that "Go both ways".
2. I DO believe that there is COMPETITION for these sites.
3. I DO believe that the priciple of "first come - first served", OR "he who controls the roost rules it", OR "possession is 9/10ths of the Law". MAY APPLY.
Keep in mind, I dont think any one really knows what the lifespan of an estrogen or androgen molecule is at any particular area of the body, if it goes of to act as E2 again once created at a site later acting on other sites, and how many times!?!?? YOU CAN LOOK UP MY HYPOTHESIS ON SERUM COUNTS AS WORTHLESS...
As far as any potential rebound effect goes. I dont think it would apply if the above speculation were true, given the right subject, or someone with plenty of androgen activity present as well, because the androgens would gain control of these receptors during the SERM period and thus prevent a recurrance. Keep in mind, a fatty like me may not be able to prove this true...
NO - I do not believe SERMS create a brain blockade ONLY causing GNRH to surge. I belive the Blockade occurs at satellite/receptor areas and the demand is MOSTLY transmitted to the brain throught the CNS from these sites. So there is a little catch-22 for Gyno sufferers, but not a REBOUND. This effect goes coincidentally with the same amount of time for the action of the SERM to subside.. HMMM. Now that really sends ya running for the vitamin B doesn't it???
MY CONCLUSION is that a SERM as PCT will cause a brief spike in SERUM COUNTS. The cause of this is unknown. When it comes to actual hormone count metabolised, I dont think it really even relates all that directly. For all we know, the increase in TT serum count is due to the SERM BLOCKADE at the receptes creating more TT available as it is no longer metabolized there/temporarily. While SERM application leads to increased LH/FSH, there is the obvious likely hood that the diminished hormone reciept at certain receptors has caused some increase in production.. That will get you a cup of coffee in a years time with no more steroids to hold all that muscle in place...
Come to think of it. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE DOCUMENTATION OF A STEROID USER PRE-BLOODWORKED, did not do PCT, then a year later suffering from TT counts 600 points lower than pre-cylcle, AND THEN PERMANENTLY CURED by PCT?SERM PROTOCOL. REALLY.. PLEASE>>>
Now with all that said. LATELY, I am starting to think there may be more value in SERM PCT than meets the eye. OR EVEN THE SERUM COUNT. Again we are dealing with hormone transfers that we can not measure. SO IF,,,,,, IF there is any truth to receptor competition, SERM/PCT may very well help to correct this IF ONE WERE INCLINED TO ESTROGENIC ISSUES FROM STEROID ADMINISTRATION. Remeber the truth is that with TIME, no one would know whether or not is was necessary, BECAUSE SERUM COUNTS ARE NOTHING MORE THAN STAGING LEVELS IN THE BLOOD, OR HORMONES "ON DECK". Your Body and genetic predispostion will determine what these levels are REGARDLESS OF THE ACTUAL TRANSFER RATE THAT IS CURRENT.
Here is the best way to consider it that I have come up with to date. Consider average TT ranges of 600 - 900 ng/dl. NOW PERHAPS, this could be indicative indeed OVER A LONG PERIOD, as to what is going on. In that, there would have to be a larger supply in the blood to accomodate a faster transfer rate if SIGNIFICANTLY ALTERED. BUT ONLY if that were a period of al least 1 year with no hormone modulation attempts and allowed to settle out.
1. Lets say the blood turns over all ciculating TT in one-half of a second to go through 7mgs (avg) of TT per day.
2. Consider now there may be a BLOOD SATURATION FACTOR INVOLVED. Meaning it becomes more difficult to hold homones in circulation. In this case, A LONG TERM CHANGE IN MEASURED as 100 points or more may not be a "dollar for dollar" exchage. IT COULD MEAN THE SAME FOR THE DOWN TURN. But again, this is where medicine fails, because the significance would only be high in value on the extreme LOW or High side (250 or 1100). Of course medicine did not fail for there pupose. The reading means exactly that - THAT YOU ARE FAR OFF THE CHARTS AND THERE IS A PROBLEM.
3. In FACT. I would go so far as to speculate that it would be far better to read 300 every time, rather than be all over the charts. Again we are talking 1 year samples here. So Serum counts actually serve on both the short and long intervals. BUT NEVER IN BETWEEN, which is where everyone fails here in the proper interpretation of the bloodwork.
So then lets get outside the box and re-think a drug. Pehaps an androgen inhibitor is required to reset a ripped highly androgenic steroid user.?? What if his CNS is sensing too much androgenic activity and thus shutting his TT production down due to too much androgen receptor activity. (theres a Nobel in here somewhere)??? But do we even have one?. I think finasteride works like AI, and not blocking at the receptors. So what would that be? You ever hear about guys complaining of long term issues from fanestaride? Did I say something about domination by control?? Which hormones were they blocking, and which could have gotten in?? Keep in mind these anomalies will occur ONLY with those with imbalances in metabolism or demand. Thats all of us. How would you reverse a person with reported androgen deficiency symptoms from the use of a "dHT blocker"? Has anyone even tried a SERM?? Medically? Really, does anyone is medicine have any free thought? Oh, I forgot about their insurance premium...LOL...
THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT STASIS WILL BE FOUND QUICKLY. But the stasis of what? A new hormone activity profile going on within the body. So you did PCT, or you didn't..... Its 6 months down the road, your serum counts are fine..... Right??? Or are they. Remember, SERUM COUNTS OR BLOOD HOLDINGS are what is allowed on deck for activity in a game that is very fast moving. BUT THE KEY, is that they are going to read pretty close to PRE-STEROID activity 6 months plus down the road, EVEN IF YOUR HORMONE METABOLISM PROFILE HAS COMPLETELY CHANGED STILL. Your bloods is gonna show it the same. Whether it is an issue of supply, or an issue of elimination. Your body is gonna paint the same bloodwork picture, BUT IS IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You know I love anecdotal experience. What works works. There MAY be a more fundamental reason for running a SERM than ANYONE has realized. I am becomming convinced the benefit is not the ACTUAL RESTART, but PERHAPS THE RESET.....
My views on PCT have ALWAYS been that its a rediculous notion to take a drug many times riskier than say, Testosterone, and all in the name of bulking muscle that your body aint gonna hold anyway..... So thats all it is in a nutshell....
1. I DO believe that SERM use is an excellent form of cycle BRIDGE for SERIOUS athletes.
2. I DO believe that SERM use will increase SERUM COUNTS in the SHORT RUN.
3. I DO believe that SERM use could be an effective way to staive off GYNO if development potential is present.
All I was saying about RESETTING RECEPTOR PROFILES was meaning that, IF one were inclined to have androgen/estrogen imbalance, and have a preponderance of estrogenic activity cycling, the blockade created by the SERM post cycle my indeed help to diminish the activity thus creating a better active hormonal profile. Meaning - ESTROGEN LEADS TO ESTROGEN.
1. I DO believe there are MANY RECEPTORS throughout the body that "Go both ways".
2. I DO believe that there is COMPETITION for these sites.
3. I DO believe that the priciple of "first come - first served", OR "he who controls the roost rules it", OR "possession is 9/10ths of the Law". MAY APPLY.
Keep in mind, I dont think any one really knows what the lifespan of an estrogen or androgen molecule is at any particular area of the body, if it goes of to act as E2 again once created at a site later acting on other sites, and how many times!?!?? YOU CAN LOOK UP MY HYPOTHESIS ON SERUM COUNTS AS WORTHLESS...
As far as any potential rebound effect goes. I dont think it would apply if the above speculation were true, given the right subject, or someone with plenty of androgen activity present as well, because the androgens would gain control of these receptors during the SERM period and thus prevent a recurrance. Keep in mind, a fatty like me may not be able to prove this true...
NO - I do not believe SERMS create a brain blockade ONLY causing GNRH to surge. I belive the Blockade occurs at satellite/receptor areas and the demand is MOSTLY transmitted to the brain throught the CNS from these sites. So there is a little catch-22 for Gyno sufferers, but not a REBOUND. This effect goes coincidentally with the same amount of time for the action of the SERM to subside.. HMMM. Now that really sends ya running for the vitamin B doesn't it???
MY CONCLUSION is that a SERM as PCT will cause a brief spike in SERUM COUNTS. The cause of this is unknown. When it comes to actual hormone count metabolised, I dont think it really even relates all that directly. For all we know, the increase in TT serum count is due to the SERM BLOCKADE at the receptes creating more TT available as it is no longer metabolized there/temporarily. While SERM application leads to increased LH/FSH, there is the obvious likely hood that the diminished hormone reciept at certain receptors has caused some increase in production.. That will get you a cup of coffee in a years time with no more steroids to hold all that muscle in place...
Come to think of it. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE DOCUMENTATION OF A STEROID USER PRE-BLOODWORKED, did not do PCT, then a year later suffering from TT counts 600 points lower than pre-cylcle, AND THEN PERMANENTLY CURED by PCT?SERM PROTOCOL. REALLY.. PLEASE>>>
Now with all that said. LATELY, I am starting to think there may be more value in SERM PCT than meets the eye. OR EVEN THE SERUM COUNT. Again we are dealing with hormone transfers that we can not measure. SO IF,,,,,, IF there is any truth to receptor competition, SERM/PCT may very well help to correct this IF ONE WERE INCLINED TO ESTROGENIC ISSUES FROM STEROID ADMINISTRATION. Remeber the truth is that with TIME, no one would know whether or not is was necessary, BECAUSE SERUM COUNTS ARE NOTHING MORE THAN STAGING LEVELS IN THE BLOOD, OR HORMONES "ON DECK". Your Body and genetic predispostion will determine what these levels are REGARDLESS OF THE ACTUAL TRANSFER RATE THAT IS CURRENT.
Here is the best way to consider it that I have come up with to date. Consider average TT ranges of 600 - 900 ng/dl. NOW PERHAPS, this could be indicative indeed OVER A LONG PERIOD, as to what is going on. In that, there would have to be a larger supply in the blood to accomodate a faster transfer rate if SIGNIFICANTLY ALTERED. BUT ONLY if that were a period of al least 1 year with no hormone modulation attempts and allowed to settle out.
1. Lets say the blood turns over all ciculating TT in one-half of a second to go through 7mgs (avg) of TT per day.
2. Consider now there may be a BLOOD SATURATION FACTOR INVOLVED. Meaning it becomes more difficult to hold homones in circulation. In this case, A LONG TERM CHANGE IN MEASURED as 100 points or more may not be a "dollar for dollar" exchage. IT COULD MEAN THE SAME FOR THE DOWN TURN. But again, this is where medicine fails, because the significance would only be high in value on the extreme LOW or High side (250 or 1100). Of course medicine did not fail for there pupose. The reading means exactly that - THAT YOU ARE FAR OFF THE CHARTS AND THERE IS A PROBLEM.
3. In FACT. I would go so far as to speculate that it would be far better to read 300 every time, rather than be all over the charts. Again we are talking 1 year samples here. So Serum counts actually serve on both the short and long intervals. BUT NEVER IN BETWEEN, which is where everyone fails here in the proper interpretation of the bloodwork.
So then lets get outside the box and re-think a drug. Pehaps an androgen inhibitor is required to reset a ripped highly androgenic steroid user.?? What if his CNS is sensing too much androgenic activity and thus shutting his TT production down due to too much androgen receptor activity. (theres a Nobel in here somewhere)??? But do we even have one?. I think finasteride works like AI, and not blocking at the receptors. So what would that be? You ever hear about guys complaining of long term issues from fanestaride? Did I say something about domination by control?? Which hormones were they blocking, and which could have gotten in?? Keep in mind these anomalies will occur ONLY with those with imbalances in metabolism or demand. Thats all of us. How would you reverse a person with reported androgen deficiency symptoms from the use of a "dHT blocker"? Has anyone even tried a SERM?? Medically? Really, does anyone is medicine have any free thought? Oh, I forgot about their insurance premium...LOL...
THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT STASIS WILL BE FOUND QUICKLY. But the stasis of what? A new hormone activity profile going on within the body. So you did PCT, or you didn't..... Its 6 months down the road, your serum counts are fine..... Right??? Or are they. Remember, SERUM COUNTS OR BLOOD HOLDINGS are what is allowed on deck for activity in a game that is very fast moving. BUT THE KEY, is that they are going to read pretty close to PRE-STEROID activity 6 months plus down the road, EVEN IF YOUR HORMONE METABOLISM PROFILE HAS COMPLETELY CHANGED STILL. Your bloods is gonna show it the same. Whether it is an issue of supply, or an issue of elimination. Your body is gonna paint the same bloodwork picture, BUT IS IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You know I love anecdotal experience. What works works. There MAY be a more fundamental reason for running a SERM than ANYONE has realized. I am becomming convinced the benefit is not the ACTUAL RESTART, but PERHAPS THE RESET.....
Last edited:
