Straight sets vs. ramping sets for hypertrophy

[Mac11wildcat]

Last I checked, leg presses and squats were not the only movements performed by those in pursuit of total body hypertrophy but Im going to assume those examples were intentionally chosen for exaggerative effect.

I was also responding to what was implied by the wording of your response, which greatly differs from your intentions, now that you have clarified.

Anyway, not trying to get into an argument or piss anyone off here, just offer some advice to the poor misfortune I originally replied to and uphold the value of science.

Could’ve been said more eloquently I agree. That’s on me.

But on discussing the idea in general, I don’t find value myself and have not seen the scientific evidence for locking out movements, any movement, where the load is such that tension is near zero. Given that nobody should train outside their available ROM.

Locking out something like say dumbbell press, when one could chose a converging machine to lock out on.

Science says the most important part of the rep is the ROM closer to the stretch than the short. So the obsession with lockout confuses me.

And sorry to OP for thread hijack.

 

[bornSkinny]

It has almost nothing to do with time under tension. TUT principle says you need X amount of time under a load. TUT alone has been largely disproven.

Now, I believe in controlled movement which does increase the time a rep takes, but all recent studies show it is mechanical tension which is dictated by proximity to failure (as failure approaches reps slow and fiber tension increases). That failure could be at 6 reps (that’s a pretty short set) or 25 reps (pretty long set). The dominant factor is how close you get to failure on the set and that then relates to the volume necessary to provide ample stimulus to grow.

As far as your second comment, I’m by no means a freak genetic wise. I train 2 sets to failure per movement (after warmups which ascend in load but decrease in reps), ~6 movements per day, 5 days a week on a PPL scheme and have indeed gotten strong, but also grew very well at a time when growth should be harder and harder to come by (I’ve added close to 120lbs of muscle since I started i started lifting, peaked at 232lb at 5’5).

Mechanical tension always works when in bodybuilding rep ranges (6 and up for the most part) aside from maybe when a deload is needed or somebody just needs a change for enjoyment sake.

Now again this isn’t to say volume training can’t work because it clearly can. But aside from very few outliers who grow just looking or smelling iron, that relationship of volume is based on how far from failure you are.

Hmmm. Saying I’ve added about 120 lbs of muscle, which is like doubling my body weight, but I’m not some kind of genetic outlier or anything sounds a bit odd to me. It’s ok to admit you’re a freak dude. That’s a good thing.
If you’re a firm believer in HIT that’s fine, and understandable. I just don’t agree. I don’t think that makes me “factual” wrong because I think the current data suggests volume training is better for hypertrophy. It’s a difference of opinion, and it’s not like I’ve read all the studies myself. I’ve listened to experts who have and their explanations, and changed my own training accordingly and got better results.

Of course I’m trying to get my sets in the sweet spot where they are challenging. Then I measure how many of those sets I’m doing in a session,week,block. That’s my Volume. I just differ in that I think increasing that is key for growth over intensity.

 

[Soloshino]

Update:
After a basic warmup, I am thinking about doing this for compound movements:
85% of 1 rm for 4 reps, 80% of 1 rm for 6 reps, and 75% of 1 rm for 8 reps (or failure)
for isolation movements and back exercises (I feel a better stimulus for back muscles with slightly higher reps):
80% of 1 rm for 6 reps; 75% of 1 rm for 8 reps, and 70% of 1 rm for 10 reps (or failure)
for clarification, 85% of 1 rm is usually a 6 rep max, 80% is an 8 rep max, 75% is a 10 rep max, and 70% is a 12 rep max.
for some reason, my muscles just enjoy the heavy poundages. I tried working mainly with 70-75% of 1 rm, and I just feel like certain muscle fibers are not being properly stimulated and activated. when I lift a weight that is 80%-85% of 1 rm, I immediately feel all the muscle fibers activated and ready to go. also, this way, I never get above 2 RIR and so I feel like each set is a quality working set without the CNS fatigue from taking every set to failure.

 

[Titan18]

Love the training talk. Lots of good info in this thread.

 

[didleyr6]

Love the training talk. Lots of good info in this thread.

Agreed. Refreshing to see so much good discussion and invaluable information being shared and the thread not dissolving into petty insults whenever there’s disagreements.

 

[malfeasance]

Hmmm. Saying I’ve added about 120 lbs of muscle, which is like doubling my body weight, but I’m not some kind of genetic outlier or anything sounds a bit odd to me. It’s ok to admit you’re a freak dude. That’s a good thing.
If you’re a firm believer in HIT that’s fine, and understandable. I just don’t agree. I don’t think that makes me “factual” wrong because I think the current data suggests volume training is better for hypertrophy. It’s a difference of opinion, and it’s not like I’ve read all the studies myself. I’ve listened to experts who have and their explanations, and changed my own training accordingly and got better results.

Of course I’m trying to get my sets in the sweet spot where they are challenging. Then I measure how many of those sets I’m doing in a session,week,block. That’s my Volume. I just differ in that I think increasing that is key for growth over intensity.

After my first two years of lifting I added 111 pounds over a long period of time to my peak weight ever. If I count those first two years, it is a huge amount that you would not believe.

Not only am I not a genetic freak, but I quite possibly have some of the worst genetics of anybody for adding muscle. I used to get jealous of guys I would train who would train and eat just like me and pass me up in a short period of time. It was very frustrating.

But I think 100+ pound gains are pretty normal for guys who want to step on stage and actually follow through with doing so.

Mac11wildcat has good enough genetics to turn pro, though, and that puts him at least somewhat in an elite group, regardless of his personal, subjective feelings on his genetics. He probably downgrades the genetics because he knows how much work he has put into his training and diet and consistency (just check out his log here in the bodybuilding section). I don't want to take away from his hard work and discipline, but he does not have "bad genetics."

 

[bornSkinny]

After my first two years of lifting I added 111 pounds over a long period of time to my peak weight ever. If I count those first two years, it is a huge amount that you would not believe.

Not only am I not a genetic freak, but I quite possibly have some of the worst genetics of anybody for adding muscle. I used to get jealous of guys I would train who would train and eat just like me and pass me up in a short period of time. It was very frustrating.

But I think 100+ pound gains are pretty normal for guys who want to step on stage and actually follow through with doing so.

Mac11wildcat has good enough genetics to turn pro, though, and that puts him at least somewhat in an elite group, regardless of his personal, subjective feelings on his genetics. He probably downgrades the genetics because he knows how much work he has put into his training and diet and consistency (just check out his log here in the bodybuilding section). I don't want to take away from his hard work and discipline, but he does not have "bad genetics."

I don’t think an average person can double their natural body size, lean mass obviously, adding over a 100lbs to their frame in only a few years. That’s pretty special. You guys are exceptional. Congratulations.

 

[Soloshino]

I don’t think an average person can double their natural body size, lean mass obviously, adding over a 100lbs to their frame in only a few years. That’s pretty special. You guys are exceptional. Congratulations.

Mike O'TrenHearn says he gained 100 pounds naturally from age 14 to 15.

 

[malfeasance]

I don’t think an average person can double their natural body size, lean mass obviously, adding over a 100lbs to their frame in only a few years. That’s pretty special. You guys are exceptional. Congratulations.

Just to be clear, mine was over a long time, not "a few years." I just kept at it consistently gaining a little at a time. It all adds up eventually.

I know my genetics are piss poor simply because of watching guys who would join me, training partner, eat together, etc., just surpass me in a relatively short period of time. Same training, same diet, etc. Everything I was showing them how to do, and they benefitted more from it than I did.

It took me a long, long time to add that much weight.

 

[bornSkinny]

Mike O'TrenHearn says he gained 100 pounds naturally from age 14 to 15.

He also got a couple black belts that year I’m sure.

 

[rexy]

For a single body part, 1hr sounds about right for 2 sets to failure per movement. You should be resting for 2-3m between sets.

It definitely takes adjustment. But for a “bro split” you can go higher daily volume because typically a single muscle group like chest would only get trained 1x week.

I started doing 2 sets to failure recently - or just 2 work sets in general if the exercise isn't safe to go to failure on - and what I noticed is that, regardless of whether the volume is 'optimal', it sure as hell helps me focus and get more out of the sets vs. when I was doing 3-5. Knowing I only have 2 sets (even if its an arbitrary barrier) means I get more done in them, with more focus, than I do 4-5, just because of the mental shift. So for me I definitely find it works 'better' than more sets if for no other reason than it stops me dragging my a$$.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

I started doing 2 sets to failure recently - or just 2 work sets in general if the exercise isn't safe to go to failure on - and what I noticed is that, regardless of whether the volume is 'optimal', it sure as hell helps me focus and get more out of the sets vs. when I was doing 3-5. Knowing I only have 2 sets (even if its an arbitrary barrier) means I get more done in them, with more focus, than I do 4-5, just because of the mental shift. So for me I definitely find it works 'better' than more sets if for no other reason than it stops me dragging my a$$.

I found this as well. It’s also much easier to track progress as RIR/RPE is extremely subjective. So subjective I don’t think it has a place for anyone but highly trained individuals.

 

[malfeasance]

Knowing I only have 2 sets (even if its an arbitrary barrier) means I get more done in them, with more focus,

I thought I was the only one tricking myself like this. Sometimes, like when I want to do two heavy sets and a final lighter set, I will tell myself I am just going to do one all out set.

Then, afterward, rest, and then I tell myself one more set with that same weight. lol

Then, I reduce the weight and tell myself, oh, just one more, and, hey, it's lighter this time!

If I am thinking about all of it at once I won't do as much on that first set.

 

[rexy]

I thought I was the only one tricking myself like this. Sometimes, like when I want to do two heavy sets and a final lighter set, I will tell myself I am just going to do one all out set.

Then, afterward, rest, and then I tell myself one more set with that same weight. lol

Then, I reduce the weight and tell myself, oh, just one more, and, hey, it's lighter this time!

If I am thinking about all of it at once I won't do as much on that first set.

I find the mindgames important. Finding what psychologically suits you training wise is probably more important than any 'optimal' physiological method. When you have something that suits your psyche, you can push so much further that it makes it *your* optimal.

Like with the two heavy sets...in the back of my mind I'm playing the 'its only one more set' game too, and that feels doable no matter what it is. Most times i then surprise myself on the second set and go further than expected, because i want to make the most of it with it being my last. And like you say, if the weight is lighter as well, I feel like I can send it into orbit. Works so well psychologically.

 

[jJjburton]

I thought I was the only one tricking myself like this. Sometimes, like when I want to do two heavy sets and a final lighter set, I will tell myself I am just going to do one all out set.

Then, afterward, rest, and then I tell myself one more set with that same weight. lol

Then, I reduce the weight and tell myself, oh, just one more, and, hey, it's lighter this time!

If I am thinking about all of it at once I won't do as much on that first set.

Weird, but true

Edit- never realized that this was something until verbalized. Especially on squats i do this

 

[jJjburton]

Nice thread, enjoyed this info alot.

 

[HB_22]

Nice thread, enjoyed this info alot.

Agree.

 

[Zebedee]

Agree.

Likewise.

 

[bornSkinny]

Just to be clear, mine was over a long time, not "a few years." I just kept at it consistently gaining a little at a time. It all adds up eventually.

I know my genetics are piss poor simply because of watching guys who would join me, training partner, eat together, etc., just surpass me in a relatively short period of time. Same training, same diet, etc. Everything I was showing them how to do, and they benefitted more from it than I did.

It took me a long, long time to add that much weight.

Just saying that putting on over a hundred pounds of muscle is atypical. That’s all. A thought I heard echoed on this podcast by Justin Harris today.


View: https://youtu.be/EzX-_4HxmkY


At 8:30 he says exactly this. Someone gaining 100 of muscle after beginning ped use is unusual.

That’s a lot of gains.

 

[Megadick3000]

I'm gonna give this a go after my next deload.
How many sets before you go to failure or just 2 sets per movement to failure?

Did you ever give this a go?

And if so, what were your experiences?