Straight sets vs. ramping sets for hypertrophy

[laclark89]

Well put I 100 percent agree, over 15 its hard to judge 1 or 2 rir reps in reserve or what ever. When I go high reps I'm only concerned on pumping a shit load of blood. Would you consider 1-2 reps from mechanical failure or "form going to shit" close to failure?

 

[Mac11wildcat]

Well put I 100 percent agree, over 15 its hard to judge 1 or 2 rir reps in reserve or what ever. When I go high reps I'm only concerned on pumping a shit load of blood. Would you consider 1-2 reps from mechanical failure or "form going to shit" close to failure?

There's a relationship between volume and proximity to failure. Going all the way to mechanical failure (where you can't perform another rep with form specific for that muscle/movement) requires fewer sets than 2 RIR training. 2RIR should not coincide with form going to shit tho. Neither should failure. We're not trying to fail a movement, we're trying to fail a muscle.

 

[MountainBaby]

What you've described for warmups is what I do...3-4 warmups on the first movement of descending reps for ascending weight and fewer on the other movements. But I warmup as needed and it isn't the same every day. I've reached a point load wise that requires a bit more care. If I don't feel right after a couple warm ups I'll do another. I'm not rigid with warmups because if I need to do an extra warmup and end up doing 1 less rep than theoretically possible due to an extra warmup but still added a rep over last week, I progressed. If I stay rigid on warmups and blow a Pec pressing 6 plates on the hammer strength my year is over.

As far as number of working sets, adding more volume via a whole extra set is a last approach IMO, added intensity is where i default to, IE past failure first: drops, rest pause, forces reps, etc. The reps we care about are the ones closest to failure, why do another set of 10 when I can rest 20s in a rest pause and do just the 3-4 that get me to failure?

Science has also shown us that adding volume, not just intensity, will be required for MOST people to make adaptations as they progress in their training career. The intensity techniques you use are great to deploy as needed during a meso cycle, but they’re not a substitute for volume progression.

Training Volume: How Many Sets Per Week is Enough?

More volume = more gains? Maybe… but not exactly. So here’s EXACTLY how much training volume to do and a systematic approach to programming it.

tailoredcoachingmethod.com

With how advanced a lifter you are, if you are still adding size without adding volume - you really are a genetic freak!


*edit: to be clear, I’m not trying to tell you that you’re training wrong. You obviously have a program that works well for you - I’m just trying to sprinkle in some additional elements that may be helpful for others who stumble upon the thread. The science is pretty sound for volume progression, as it is for approaches to failure. I believe both should be utilized for hypertrophy goals.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

Science has also shown us that adding volume, not just intensity, will be required for MOST people to make adaptations as they progress in their training career. The intensity techniques you use are great to deploy as needed during a meso cycle, but they’re not a substitute for volume progression.

Training Volume: How Many Sets Per Week is Enough?

More volume = more gains? Maybe… but not exactly. So here’s EXACTLY how much training volume to do and a systematic approach to programming it.

tailoredcoachingmethod.com

With how advanced a lifter you are, if you are still adding size without adding volume - you really are a genetic freak!


*edit: to be clear, I’m not trying to tell you that you’re training wrong. You obviously have a program that works well for you - I’m just trying to sprinkle in some additional elements that may be helpful for others who stumble upon the thread. The science is pretty sound for volume progression, as it is for approaches to failure. I believe both should be utilized for hypertrophy goals.

Will read this, but I'd wager good $ it has to do with the fact that most people can't train to failure consistently and therefore need more volume. But that's my inkling prior to reading this.

 

[laclark89]

Lol, I dont know if I'd care to debate muscle development with people that probably have half the muscle as me. That's kind of like arguing with a little kid.

 

[ironmaster73]

Which do you think is better for hypertrophy for compound movements?

For example, for the bench press would it be better to do -
215x8, 230x8, 245x8, 265x8 (65%, 70%, 75%, 80% of 1 rm)
or
245x8, 245x8, 245x8, 245x8 (75% of 1 rm across)
(these numbers are estimates based on my 1 rep max)

I used to train to failure for every set for the last two years, but a week ago but I got completely burnt out and started to get a lot of joint pain as well. I have been taking it easy but don't think I want to return to that style of training since I've read it probably is not any more effective.

lets see.
215 + 230 + 245 + 265 = 955lbs(less gains)
245 +245+245+245 = 980lbs(more gains)

enough said

 

[Megadick3000]

Will read this, but I'd wager good $ it has to do with the fact that most people can't train to failure consistently and therefore need more volume. But that's my inkling prior to reading this.

Mac let me pick your brain some more regarding three things.

With regards to recovery. What are your criteria for considering a muscle recovered or not? Such as:
- unable to complete the same work load/intensity as previous workout
- feeling of the contraction in the muscle (without being at the gym, i.e. just flexing it and feeling you cant get that hard contraction)
- soreness
- glycogen supercompensation (does it look,more puffed up since post-workout or does it look flatter than before the prior workout)
- other criteria and if so what?

Secondly. In the event you assess a muscle group as not fully recovered, and yet its time per your routine schedule to work it again, whats your course of action? Do you just push through? Do you do the workout but drop the exercises that involve the muscle group in question? Do you still work the muscle group but at less intensity or volume (i.e. instead of 2 working sets to failure you do just 1?), do you forego the workout entirely? Etc.

If a muscles sore from previous workout will you still work it? If so, to the same intensity and workload?

Thirdly, how do you plan deloads into your training? Is there a criteria you use to decide when its time to deload or is it on a set schedule thats unwavering? How long do you deload for? What does a deload look like for you in terms of volume and intensity?

 

[Deleted member 123722]

Mac let me pick your brain some more regarding three things.

With regards to recovery. What are your criteria for considering a muscle recovered or not? Such as:
- unable to complete the same work load/intensity as previous workout
- feeling of the contraction in the muscle (without being at the gym, i.e. just flexing it and feeling you cant get that hard contraction)
- soreness
- glycogen supercompensation (does it look,more puffed up since post-workout or does it look flatter than before the prior workout)
- other criteria and if so what?

Secondly. In the event you assess a muscle group as not fully recovered, and yet its time per your routine schedule to work it again, whats your course of action? Do you just push through? Do you do the workout but drop the exercises that involve the muscle group in question? Do you still work the muscle group but at less intensity or volume (i.e. instead of 2 working sets to failure you do just 1?), do you forego the workout entirely? Etc.

If a muscles sore from previous workout will you still work it? If so, to the same intensity and workload?

Thirdly, how do you plan deloads into your training? Is there a criteria you use to decide when its time to deload or is it on a set schedule thats unwavering? How long do you deload for? What does a deload look like for you in terms of volume and intensity?

I'm sure Mac will answer, but here's what I've learned over time.

1.) If your performance is not hindered in the next session, then soreness and all the rest don't really matter. I used to think soreness meant don't train again, but we know muscles can recover 48-72 hrs.

2.) Lower sets or intensity; perhaps even skip the day completely if you really feel the need. ( you don't' grow in the gym anyway).

3.) When number one is happening to every muscle group, and your performance has gone to shit, time to de-load.

 

[Deleted member 123722]

You will grow doing either method.

Literally any kind of progressive overload works; your muscles have no idea what weight you are using.

Create the stimulus in the way you enjoy doing it, eat and grow.

I used to be autistic with all these details, too, and tried everything, only to learn that everything can work, but what will work best is what you enjoy doing, consistently.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

Mac let me pick your brain some more regarding three things.

With regards to recovery. What are your criteria for considering a muscle recovered or not? Such as:
- unable to complete the same work load/intensity as previous workout
- feeling of the contraction in the muscle (without being at the gym, i.e. just flexing it and feeling you cant get that hard contraction)
- soreness
- glycogen supercompensation (does it look,more puffed up since post-workout or does it look flatter than before the prior workout)
- other criteria and if so what?

Secondly. In the event you assess a muscle group as not fully recovered, and yet its time per your routine schedule to work it again, whats your course of action? Do you just push through? Do you do the workout but drop the exercises that involve the muscle group in question? Do you still work the muscle group but at less intensity or volume (i.e. instead of 2 working sets to failure you do just 1?), do you forego the workout entirely? Etc.

If a muscles sore from previous workout will you still work it? If so, to the same intensity and workload?

Thirdly, how do you plan deloads into your training? Is there a criteria you use to decide when its time to deload or is it on a set schedule thats unwavering? How long do you deload for? What does a deload look like for you in terms of volume and intensity?

For me personally, I ignore any subjective view of "recovery" and stick to numbers as much as i can. The mind is a bitch. If I DONT improve in reps/load during a workout I might consider if I hadn't recovered. But a smart split can easily fit 2 days a week for each group without overlapping in 72hrs. But even then, with gear, food, and sleep, I don't know we need ALL that time to recover.

The answers to these are subjective tho. Like if you feel you jsut can't go today, don't.

A WHOLE LOT more muscle is missed by people training too frequently than taking too much rest and maximizing effort in the gym as a result.

As far as deloads, when I start to see progress stall across the board and switching out individual movements doesn't do it, I go deload. And my delaods are typically 2 weeks long and a switch to volume training: 3-4 sets of 8-15 reps short of failure.

 

[rexy]

2 push days a week. Here they are.

Push 1
1. HS Incline Press
2. Seated Cable Press
3. DB Lateral
4. Single Cable Rear Delt Flye
5. OTS Tri Cable Ext
6. JM Press
7. Pec Dec SS Tri Ext (pump/metabolic 3x12 each superset short rest)

Push 2
1. Low Incline Smith Press
2. Flat HS Press
3. Double Cuff Cable Lateral
4. Single Cable Tri Ext
5. Dips
6. OH Strap Tri Extension (pump/methanol if 5x12 short rest)

I think most people drastically overestimate what it takes for muscle to grow, especially single muscle groups like pecs as opposed to back where pecs perform one major function where backs various groups can perform several.

Hi Mac. Would you mind posting your pull sessions? I know its essentially giving away free info so understand if not. But that has been really useful.
i've been getting lost in overthinking recently with programming, and seeing your push days has given me a sort of revelation.

I'm a beginner so that's helped me align myself with reality. Particularly took note of you saying you think people drastically overestimate what it takes for muscles to grow. I was thinking the other day, for pecs specifically (similar to your example), 'why would I honestly need a 3rd exercise if i've done 4-6 sets on the ones prior? what else can the chest actually do that it hasn't already as long as I cover different angles' - but it took seeing your post to connect the dots and can be difficult sometimes to not drift off the path with being inexperienced.

Also - what does HS mean on the presses?

 

[Mac11wildcat]

Hi Mac. Would you mind posting your pull sessions? I know its essentially giving away free info so understand if not. But that has been really useful.
i've been getting lost in overthinking recently with programming, and seeing your push days has given me a sort of revelation.

I'm a beginner so that's helped me align myself with reality. Particularly took note of you saying you think people drastically overestimate what it takes for muscles to grow. I was thinking the other day, for pecs specifically (similar to your example), 'why would I honestly need a 3rd exercise if i've done 4-6 sets on the ones prior? what else can the chest actually do that it hasn't already as long as I cover different angles' - but it took seeing your post to connect the dots and can be difficult sometimes to not drift off the path with being inexperienced.

Also - what does HS mean on the presses?

HS means hammer strength.

Pull days are just as simple. But mine are modified a bit for added ham work.

Pull 1
1. Single Arm Lat Row or Pulldown- this can be the hammer strength high row, a high or regular cable row
2. Pulldown (mid back) - highly advise using something like Prime with separate handles and work on the angle you pull at to hit mid back
3. Second lat focused movement - same idea as the first but chose a movement with a different loading curve/ROM
4. Second upper back movement
5. Bicep curl - single arm, choose a setup that places the load in the stretch like a cable curl facing away from the stack
6. Bicep curl - single arm, choose a movement where the load is in the shortened position

Pull 2
1. Lat row or pulldown
2. Upper/mid back row or pulldown
3. Single arm cable pullover
4. Ham curl
5. Deadlift
6. Bicep 1
7. Bicep 2

Let me know if you have any questions

 

[laclark89]

Push pull is my favorite

 

[rexy]

HS means hammer strength.

Pull days are just as simple. But mine are modified a bit for added ham work.

Pull 1
1. Single Arm Lat Row or Pulldown- this can be the hammer strength high row, a high or regular cable row
2. Pulldown (mid back) - highly advise using something like Prime with separate handles and work on the angle you pull at to hit mid back
3. Second lat focused movement - same idea as the first but chose a movement with a different loading curve/ROM
4. Second upper back movement
5. Bicep curl - single arm, choose a setup that places the load in the stretch like a cable curl facing away from the stack
6. Bicep curl - single arm, choose a movement where the load is in the shortened position

Pull 2
1. Lat row or pulldown
2. Upper/mid back row or pulldown
3. Single arm cable pullover
4. Ham curl
5. Deadlift
6. Bicep 1
7. Bicep 2

Let me know if you have any questions

Thanks a lot - that's particularly useful because I've been considering adding some posterior chain work on back days too - and that pretty much gives me the template. Much appreciated!

 

[Megadick3000]

HS means hammer strength.

Pull days are just as simple. But mine are modified a bit for added ham work.

Pull 1
1. Single Arm Lat Row or Pulldown- this can be the hammer strength high row, a high or regular cable row
2. Pulldown (mid back) - highly advise using something like Prime with separate handles and work on the angle you pull at to hit mid back
3. Second lat focused movement - same idea as the first but chose a movement with a different loading curve/ROM
4. Second upper back movement
5. Bicep curl - single arm, choose a setup that places the load in the stretch like a cable curl facing away from the stack
6. Bicep curl - single arm, choose a movement where the load is in the shortened position

Pull 2
1. Lat row or pulldown
2. Upper/mid back row or pulldown
3. Single arm cable pullover
4. Ham curl
5. Deadlift
6. Bicep 1
7. Bicep 2

Let me know if you have any questions

Mac,

Whats your thoughts and opinions on the concept of stretch-mediated hypertrophy?

Do you see any value in utilizing loaded isometric holds in the stretched position? Such as after failing on the weight, to then, when possible, isometric hold the weight in the most lengthened (stretched) position?

I know you mentioned isometric holds as an intensifier option in your toolbox. Stretch-mediated hypertrophy is one of the current hot scientific topics in the world of hypertrophy research with some relatively recent studies noting some impressive observations. Curious what you think about the topic.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

Mac,

Whats your thoughts and opinions on the concept of stretch-mediated hypertrophy?

Do you see any value in utilizing loaded isometric holds in the stretched position? Such as after failing on the weight, to then, when possible, isometric hold the weight in the most lengthened (stretched) position?

I know you mentioned isometric holds as an intensifier option in your toolbox. Stretch-mediated hypertrophy is one of the current hot scientific topics in the world of hypertrophy research with some relatively recent studies noting some impressive observations. Curious what you think about the topic.

I think we know the stretch position is likely the key position for growth which is why appropriate ROM and control is so important. I haven't looked at it lately but I had done some of the programs with a massive stretch post set or post training and liked it if for nothing but the mobility and feel.

 

[29trt]

Mac you were saying mechanical failure is when the tempo slows down and you need to engage aux muscles to finish/mantain speed of the rep. I can see how I would be able to do this in a bicep curl, or shoulder later raise or other isolation ex but what about complex muscles like back... what about a pull-up, when we are using a bunch of different muscles?

I can imagine a very advanced lifter that has great mind muscle connection being able to feel when the lats start to fail and biceps take over etc but for mediocre gym rat like me seems impossible.

To avoid this issue I employ the old compound movement first, isolation after to make sure the actual muscle I train is the one being close to failure, is this a good idea, or is there a better way?

 

[Mac11wildcat]

Mac you were saying mechanical failure is when the tempo slows down and you need to engage aux muscles to finish/mantain speed of the rep. I can see how I would be able to do this in a bicep curl, or shoulder later raise or other isolation ex but what about complex muscles like back... what about a pull-up, when we are using a bunch of different muscles?

I can imagine a very advanced lifter that has great mind muscle connection being able to feel when the lats start to fail and biceps take over etc but for mediocre gym rat like me seems impossible.

To avoid this issue I employ the old compound movement first, isolation after to make sure the actual muscle I train is the one being close to failure, is this a good idea, or is there a better way?

That's essentially the way I train but I think you're thinking too much.

Choose movements that work the muscles you primarily want to train and take it to failure in execution that doesn't waver IE a Pec dominant press turning into a delt dominant when you're tired. A deep squat for quads turning into a hip dominant movement etc.

There's nothing wrong with failing a "movement" so long as the movement doesn't change to keep moving weight.

I've posted a few videos of my training but can maybe post more. If you watch you'll see I do all I can to maintain absolutely mechanical execution from start to end. If you know how to set up a press or a pulldown for mechanics and your anatomy then the only part left is to learn how to take it to failure for the target muscle first.

I'm a big proponent of lifters builds a base on heavy basics like barbells and dbs to learn to move weight safely and engage as much as possible when growth is easy to come by. But now I favor machines and cables basically everywhere because I can go execute perfectly to 100% (or beyond if that's the goal for the given set) without worrying as much about deviating form or injury.

 

[Deleted member 123722]

That's essentially the way I train but I think you're thinking too much.

Choose movements that work the muscles you primarily want to train and take it to failure in execution that doesn't waver IE a Pec dominant press turning into a delt dominant when you're tired. A deep squat for quads turning into a hip dominant movement etc.

There's nothing wrong with failing a "movement" so long as the movement doesn't change to keep moving weight.

I've posted a few videos of my training but can maybe post more. If you watch you'll see I do all I can to maintain absolutely mechanical execution from start to end. If you know how to set up a press or a pulldown for mechanics and your anatomy then the only part left is to learn how to take it to failure for the target muscle first.

I'm a big proponent of lifters builds a base on heavy basics like barbells and dbs to learn to move weight safely and engage as much as possible when growth is easy to come by. But now I favor machines and cables basically everywhere because I can go execute perfectly to 100% (or beyond if that's the goal for the given set) without worrying as much about deviating form or injury.

Where did you post the videos?

 

[Mac11wildcat]

Where did you post the videos?

My log