Sublingual testosterone - the best option to remain HPTA function?

[Rido]

The only solution to what? Having high-normal levels of test? Maybe I’m missing something but I still don’t understand what you’re trying to achieve.

You’re young and you’ve got healthy hormones. You don’t sound like you’re into going supraphysiological for performance or image purposes; that would make sense. Or maybe you do and you’re not saying?

Basically what are you unhappy with?

Most of all, doesn't seem like he knows what he is getting into...

 

[Testocyp]

The only solution to what? Having high-normal levels of test? Maybe I’m missing something but I still don’t understand what you’re trying to achieve.

You’re young and you’ve got healthy hormones. You don’t sound like you’re into going supraphysiological for performance or image purposes; that would make sense. Or maybe you do and you’re not saying?

Basically what are you unhappy with?

I think my natty free T levels are suboptimal. The reason I started TRT was bc I was curious on how higher T levels would feel like mentally. I didn’t feel that different, I think suboptimal testosterone is not my main problem but suboptimal dopamine and GABA. However, I still think my natty T isn’t optimal, and a slightly elevation (not supraphysiological) might still be beneficial (it benefits dopamine, gaba lowers cortisol etc.)

My natty free T is 12 ng/dl (reference 9-29) so it’s in the lower range. I think my body want more T since my LH is elevated, and suboptimal T and elevated LH likely acts as a stressor.

I’m into bodybuilding, but not on a professional level. Supraphysiological T is appealing, however I need an AI to mange sides of elevated estro and have problem with retaining water, which make it a net-negative for me. It also shut down downstream hormones. So, since my natty T isn’t that bad and I don’t want to go supraphysiological, shutting myself down seem overkill for such a small increase in T, and with the problems that low LH bring, which maybe can be compensated with HCG, HMG, DHEA, progesterone and perhaps small dosages of nandrolone and allopregnanolone.

So, if I could use a small dosage of testobase instead and remain HPTA, obviously that would be very convenient for my purpose.

 

[Rido]

We get it.

All of us TRTers want a small doseage to supplement, but doesn't work that way.

We didn't have that option cause it doesn't work. If you are that concerned go try clomid.

 

[Testocyp]

Those studies on Natesto look at short term use. Long term it will suppress. Just like any other form of test.

I read more about Natesto and found this regarding dosage:

”you should place one full press of the Natesto pump (5.5 mg of testosterone) into each nostril for a total of 11 mg, three times a day. This equals a total daily dosage of 33 mg.”

This equals 231mg testosterone a week, which is a supraphysiological dose. In order to prevent HPTA shutdown long term, I think exogenous and endogenous testosterone together should not exceed supraphysiological levels.

”Each dose should be taken 6 to 8 hours apart. And try to take your doses around the same times each day.”

In order to make it less suppressive, maybe a dose two times a day 8-10 hours apart is better.

If the shutdown isn’t peak driven, a supraphysiological peak might not be that big of a deal. So the importance of giving the HPTA time to reset might be more important than lowering the dose. Skiping doses or cycling on/off might work even better.

Other than that, supplements that increase LH and endogenous testosterone production should also be stacked. Like tongkat ali, tribulus terrestris, ashwagandha, maca root and astragalus. Zinc, selenium, taurine, and certain probiotics.

A SERM can also be used, it’s stronger than the supplements but with more side effects. Clomid (or better enclomiphene) can be used either in a small dose ED or EOD or maybe one bigger dose EW.

 

[Rido]

Then do it OP, who the fuck cares what we say or what the practice has established.

Lead the way bro

 

[mr.redpill]

In order to prevent HPTA shutdown long term, I think exogenous and endogenous testosterone together should not exceed supraphysiological levels.

"In order to...I think.."

No.

Other than that, supplements that increase LH and endogenous testosterone production should also be stacked. Like tongkat ali, tribulus terrestris, ashwagandha, maca root and astragalus. Zinc, selenium, taurine, and certain probiotics.

Well that'll be useless because your endogenous production will be shut down already.

No.

In order to make it less suppressive, maybe a dose two times a day 8-10 hours apart is better.

"In order to...maybe..."

No.

Jesus fucking christ man. I wasn't trying to be a dick before. But now I am.

Like I said earlier, you sound fucking neurotic, or obsessive compulsive. You won't listen to what anyone is telling you, and you are driven endlessly to find some sort of theory that would support your claim.


Don't reply to me anymore you're clearly a fucking headcase who is going to do whatever he wants to do anyway.

 

[Rido]

Don't reply to me anymore you're clearly a fucking headcase who is going to do whatever he wants to do anyway.

He thinks he is smarter than all the hormone clinics/doctors out there. Thinks he fell onto something new and that will allow him to supplement and prevent an HPTA shutdown.


Fucking shit, all of us would do that if it worked that way

 

[mr.redpill]

He thinks he is smarter than all the hormone clinics/doctors out there. Thinks he fell onto something new and that will allow him to supplement and prevent an HPTA shutdown.


Fucking shit, all of us would do that if it worked that way

Exactly

 

[Testocyp]

You claim that supplementing testosterone will always fail to preserve gonadotropins. If that’s the case, how come people successfully have supplemented testosterone while preserving gonadotropins and even increased them? How come Natesto is prescribed by doctors for people that want to preserve LH/FSH if it always fail?

Here’s a few example:

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/Testosterone/comments/pmf24x/comment/hckcwaa/

”Progesterone, LH and FSH were .31, 2.86 and 4.51 before TRT. Latest results don’t show progesterone, but LH and FSH are 8.8 and 6.2.”

So after 7 weeks on 400mg/day sublingual testosterone, his LH and FSH did not decrease, but increase.


View: https://www.reddit.com/r/Testosterone/comments/9wvy2x/comment/ecqg6m4/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

”I’ve been on Natesto for 1 month. I feel the best I have felt for as long as I can remember. My T levels are Upper end of the range, Estradiol is slightly lower than I would like but the highest I have ever tested. FSH and LH came back to middle of the range and shrinkage is gone.”


This study confirm that testosterone can be supplemented without shutting you down:
https://academic.oup.com/jes/article/3/9/1652/5523088?login=false

”TNG (Testosterone Nasal Gel) treatment restores TT levels while preserving important aspects of HPG function, including continued release of gonadotropins and production of endogenous testosterone
...
LH levels remained in the normal range but were decreased more in patients with higher starting baseline levels. These findings indicate that TNG works with an active hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis that responds to each dose of TNG throughout the treatment period.
...
The unique, ultradian, pulsatile nature of TNG, which does not depress endogenous testosterone production, means that a wide range of patients with testosterone deficiency can effectively be treated with TNG”

There’s too much conflicting evidence to claim that exogenous testosterone will always shut down your endogenous production. Obviously that’s not always the case. I’m trying to figure out why it works for some people and fail for others.

Secondary hypogonadism have hypothalamic hypersensitivity. This puts healthy testosterone levels well above the natural set point, and any supplementing with exogenous T will suppress gonadotropins even further. This suggest that those with primary hypogonadism successfully can tune their testosterone doses to achieve normal LH/FSH.

I’m not trying to be ignorant and I appreciate that you share your knowledge with me, that’s why I started this thread. Let’s search for answers without being disrespectful and biased.

 

[brapzky]

I like this subject. I have a buddy that uses the mixture mentioned below and his nuts haven't decreased in size. He says he feels great on his 4mg sublingual Test E.

Roger Mason's book "Testosterone Is Your Friend" talks about a sublingual Test E mixture of 10ml (2500mg) Test E and 325 drops of a vegetable oil for a total of 625 drops to make 4mg Test E per drop.

The book is free on his website. I don't have anything to do with him, I just like the fact that he's one of the only people online that talks about sublingual testosterone.

He says it's all the benefits and none of the side effects.

This is for TRT and not bodybuilding purposes obviously.

Sad thing is my buddy is kinda strange guy by nature, so he refused to get blood work since he can't really afford it.

He says he knows how he feels on it and off it, and how it affects him.. and the most important thing is nuts don't seem to be affected at all on this low dose.

Thank you so much for sharing the nasal test studies.

Did you end up making a sublingual solution yourself?

 

[brapzky]

Oil based testosterone is usually long ester, or at least I’ve never seen oil based test suspension. Since you want the test to be in and out of your system within hours, I’m guessing you’ll be using water based suspension.
Reason why I wouldn’t use oil either way is because just like it sticks to your fingers unless you use an emulsifier like soap, it would probably not absorb ideally through the sublingual route.
Another thing you want to consider is jawline hypertrophy. Jaw has local receptors the test will also attach to, which in long term may cause neck enlargement. This last part is mostly anecdotal, so take this with a grain of salt. Would probably depend on the dose, absorption rate and frequency.

I wonder if oils act differently when taken sublingually?

Does the testosterone not break apart from the esther as soon as it reaches the blood, so super fast when it's sublingual? Or is that not how it works?

I hope some of the experts here can chime in on the biochemical side of it.

What actually happens when you inject 250mg test E into your buttocks?

Does it hit the blood and is thus active immediately and then slowly deactivate according to its half life?

Or is it more like this:
Testosterone Enanthate is bound to the ester according to its half life such that only a small amount is actually active at the beginning and then slowly releasing from the ester...?

I don't think this is how it is because as I understand the charts I've seen you actually get all 250mg at once and then it just very slowly deactivates parts of the 250mg so you've only got half of it by day 7.

I need an explanation on how test E acts in the blood..

 

[grey]

He says it's all the benefits and none of the side effects.

Pro-tip: This is how you know it is a load of horse manure.


Instead of running his own pharma firm selling this "miracle" he is huckstering garbage books in the 80% bin.

 

[brapzky]

Pro-tip: This is how you know it is a load of horse manure.


Instead of running his own pharma firm selling this "miracle" he is huckstering garbage books in the 80% bin.

Genuine question, why is it so difficult to believe that microdosing won't shut you down 100%?

Isn't it just a question of lacking studies using very low doses?

 

[Goingstronger]

Genuine question, why is it so difficult to believe that microdosing won't shut you down 100%?

Isn't it just a question of lacking studies using very low doses?

Just do it, why do you need validation from strangers ? You are in charge of you own life, experiment !

 

[grey]

Genuine question, why is it so difficult to believe that microdosing won't shut you down 100%?

The general lack of bloodwork proving it.

it is an extraordinary claim, it requires extraordinary proof.

The proofs are simple to obtain yet you will see the incredible lack of them in places like this that aren't trying to make a dollar from said extraordinary claim.

Try this:
"why is it so difficult to believe that a shot of pickle juice won't cure cancer?"

The answer is the same.