MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Test E Cycle Log
- Thread starter florida
- Start date
raysugar1234
New Member
You wont see muscle gains from the test yet, it's only been two weeks,... A few more weeks you will start to notice gains... My first cycle was test e, like yours and I gained 25 pounds and kept 20 through pct.... Your smart to only use test for your cycle.... No there is not a rule that says you have to use nolva but I think you should, you don't have to, but you already have the clomid and nolva is cheap. Good call on not using the AI for pct, Nolva and clomid will do just fine but if you decide to just use the clomid you will be ok...
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illuminatty
New Member
Ai is fine to use in pct as long as it doesn't have androgenic properties no?
amplejunkbin
New Member
AI's are aromatase inhibitor. There functions is to inactivate, reversibly or irreversibly, the enzyme responsible for producing estrogens. This REDUCES the levels of estrogen. The effectiveness of these medications is determined by a rather typical dose-response curve. In other words, it's all in the dose.
Anastrozole and letrozole, reversible inhibitors of aromatase, are relatively potent and can easily reduce the levels of estrogens in the body to virtually nil; however, dosed properly, these drugs are capable of keeping estradiol at a reasonable level. In fact, anastrozole is frequently given to testosterone replacement patients to keep problem estradiol within a desirable range.
The idea that AI's tank estradiol is ridiculous. Though they are potent drugs and they are capable of this, these potent drugs will manage estradiol with finess if handled with the same.
raysugar1234
New Member
But why, pct is to restore hpta, I dont see how stopping estrogen production is beneficial to this... If anything I think it would be counter productive... No one I know has ever done this so I can't see any reason to do it.. All the pct plans I've seen written by professionals (Scally) don't include an AI through pct.
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raysugar1234
New Member
I don't think we should spread bullshit like this on meso.... If we don't do it why would we recommend it to other people? In a special case it may have a place, but this is a newbie and his first cycle... Take Nolva and clomid for pct..
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raysugar1234
New Member
Here is some information on why you should take both Nolva and Clomid... This is written by Dr. Scally....
QUESTION: I have read that Clomid and Novadex are very similar products. Is this true? If so why would you need to take both?
ANSWER: The administration of antiestrogens is a common treatment because anti estrogens interfere with the normal negative feedback of sex steroids at hypothalamic and pituitary levels in order to increase endogenous gonadotropin-releasing hormone secretion from the hypothalamus and FSH and LH secretion directly from the pituitary. In turn, FSH and LH stimulate Leydig cells in the testes, and this has been claimed to lead to increased local testosterone production, thereby boosting spermatogenesis with a possible improvement in fertility. There may also be a direct effect of antiestrogens on testicular spermatogenesis or steroidogenesis.
Clomiphene is a synthetic derivative an estrogen. Clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Tamoxifen is a pure estradiol receptor antagonist. Clomid acts as an estrogen, rather than an antiestrogen, by sensitizing pituitary cells to the action of GnRH. Although tamoxifen is almost as effective as Clomid in binding to pituitary estrogen receptors, tamoxifen has little or no estrogenic activity in terms of its ability to enhance the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. The estrogenic action of Clomid at the pituitary represents a unique feature of this compound and that tamoxifen may be devoid of estrogenic activity at the pituitary level.
Perusal of the literature thus indicates that clomiphene acts in several ways in the human male; (a) due to its similarity of structure to stilbesterol it binds with receptor sites in the hypothalamus and pituitary, (b) It stimulates gonadotrophin secretion by acting on the hypothalamo-hypophyseal system, (c) the inhibitory effects of high levels of circulating estrogens (produced under the influence of clomiphene) on hypothalamo-hypophyseal axis are possibly prevented by its potent antiestrogenic behaviour. The result of these varied effects of clomiphene is an overall increase in gonadotrophin and estrogen secretion and accounts for their increase under clinical conditions.
In one study the administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels.
Cochran database summary showed ten studies involving 738 men were included. Five of the trials did not specify method of randomization. Antiestrogens had a positive effect on endocrinal outcomes, such as serum testosterone levels. Antiestrogens appear to have a beneficial effect on endocrinal outcomes, but there is not enough evidence to evaluate the use of antiestrogens for increasing the fertility of males with idiopathic oligo-asthenospermia.
In the over one-thousand patients I have treated for HPTA normalization after AAS cessation i have used the combination of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. I have used clomiphene citrate alone in many cases. I added tamoxifen to the protocol to see if I could get a better clinical response. This seemed to be the case although I have not had the opportunity to evaluate the data. When both compounds are used the clomiphene citrate is discontinued first and the tamoxifen is continued for 2 more weeks. as I stated in the post on hCG injections it is imperative to be tested while on the medications. thus one would be tested ~3-5 days before the tamoxifen expires. In the 1st stage described in the hCG post one tests for testosterone only. the serum T level determines whether or not the hCG is halted. In the typical situation the hCG is stopped and the CC & tamoxifen continued. the lab tests at the end of the oral meds is LH & T.
QUESTION: I have read that Clomid and Novadex are very similar products. Is this true? If so why would you need to take both?
ANSWER: The administration of antiestrogens is a common treatment because anti estrogens interfere with the normal negative feedback of sex steroids at hypothalamic and pituitary levels in order to increase endogenous gonadotropin-releasing hormone secretion from the hypothalamus and FSH and LH secretion directly from the pituitary. In turn, FSH and LH stimulate Leydig cells in the testes, and this has been claimed to lead to increased local testosterone production, thereby boosting spermatogenesis with a possible improvement in fertility. There may also be a direct effect of antiestrogens on testicular spermatogenesis or steroidogenesis.
Clomiphene is a synthetic derivative an estrogen. Clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Tamoxifen is a pure estradiol receptor antagonist. Clomid acts as an estrogen, rather than an antiestrogen, by sensitizing pituitary cells to the action of GnRH. Although tamoxifen is almost as effective as Clomid in binding to pituitary estrogen receptors, tamoxifen has little or no estrogenic activity in terms of its ability to enhance the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. The estrogenic action of Clomid at the pituitary represents a unique feature of this compound and that tamoxifen may be devoid of estrogenic activity at the pituitary level.
Perusal of the literature thus indicates that clomiphene acts in several ways in the human male; (a) due to its similarity of structure to stilbesterol it binds with receptor sites in the hypothalamus and pituitary, (b) It stimulates gonadotrophin secretion by acting on the hypothalamo-hypophyseal system, (c) the inhibitory effects of high levels of circulating estrogens (produced under the influence of clomiphene) on hypothalamo-hypophyseal axis are possibly prevented by its potent antiestrogenic behaviour. The result of these varied effects of clomiphene is an overall increase in gonadotrophin and estrogen secretion and accounts for their increase under clinical conditions.
In one study the administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels.
Cochran database summary showed ten studies involving 738 men were included. Five of the trials did not specify method of randomization. Antiestrogens had a positive effect on endocrinal outcomes, such as serum testosterone levels. Antiestrogens appear to have a beneficial effect on endocrinal outcomes, but there is not enough evidence to evaluate the use of antiestrogens for increasing the fertility of males with idiopathic oligo-asthenospermia.
In the over one-thousand patients I have treated for HPTA normalization after AAS cessation i have used the combination of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. I have used clomiphene citrate alone in many cases. I added tamoxifen to the protocol to see if I could get a better clinical response. This seemed to be the case although I have not had the opportunity to evaluate the data. When both compounds are used the clomiphene citrate is discontinued first and the tamoxifen is continued for 2 more weeks. as I stated in the post on hCG injections it is imperative to be tested while on the medications. thus one would be tested ~3-5 days before the tamoxifen expires. In the 1st stage described in the hCG post one tests for testosterone only. the serum T level determines whether or not the hCG is halted. In the typical situation the hCG is stopped and the CC & tamoxifen continued. the lab tests at the end of the oral meds is LH & T.
raysugar1234
New Member
So there you go Florida, I can tell you did your homework, and you got the right idea. So good luck and keep us posted.... You have a pretty good cycle planned...
thanks!!! Will do.
Maven3
New Member
I cant help it..
What were you doing for 4 years to only get to 140 pounds?
You definitely weren't eating thats for sure.
I started training a guy who was 18 at 165 pounds and now one year later he is at 190 pounds 12% BF all natural.
He got that way by busting his ass in the gym but more importantly learning about nutrition and feeding himself.
Sorry but you had better learn how to feed yourself properly or watch all your "gains" go bye bye.
Cycling at 19, not smart.
What were you doing for 4 years to only get to 140 pounds?
You definitely weren't eating thats for sure.
I started training a guy who was 18 at 165 pounds and now one year later he is at 190 pounds 12% BF all natural.
He got that way by busting his ass in the gym but more importantly learning about nutrition and feeding himself.
Sorry but you had better learn how to feed yourself properly or watch all your "gains" go bye bye.
Cycling at 19, not smart.
illuminatty
New Member
I've read on other boards about using Adex durinf PCt to control e surge, but again that was my first time ever reading something like that.
I would take all the precaution like Ray mentioned and again why wouldn't you want to increase the chance of recovery by using both?
I have ordered hcg for my cycle as well as Adex. From what I read hcg also has it's own sides...so I'm thinking of saving hcg for a harsher cycle and using something le hcgenerate during cycle, and for pct using nolva, clomid, and unleashed/test booster on top of it.
I would take all the precaution like Ray mentioned and again why wouldn't you want to increase the chance of recovery by using both?
I have ordered hcg for my cycle as well as Adex. From what I read hcg also has it's own sides...so I'm thinking of saving hcg for a harsher cycle and using something le hcgenerate during cycle, and for pct using nolva, clomid, and unleashed/test booster on top of it.
illuminatty
New Member
Forgot to mention Adex during cycle as well...starting at 0.25mg/eod and tweak from there if neccessary
raysugar1234
New Member
I think HCG is a good idea bro.... You should use it..
First off, I've been in and out of the gym because of swim team. Second, I'm not the guy you trained everybody is different and I don't gain weight easily even on solid diet and yes I do know how to feed myself the right diet on and off when I'm training. In addition, the guy you trained is really lucky that that he has the right genetics in combination with good diet and training to gain the kind of weight because even for a tee thats a lot of weight. Maybe you should do a little research on different body types before you start acting like a know it all.
illuminatty
New Member
No need to Insult anyone. Florida how much cals are you consuming daily? Macro break down? And what is your training split?
I don't count cals or carbs anymore and protein I will count it occasionally just to make sure I'm on the right track. the other day I counted about 200g protein. Carbs are probably 400g right now i think.
And my split is:
Monday: Back + Bi's
Tuesday: Chest + Tri's
Wednesday: Legs + Shoulders
And then I repeat that Thursday -Saturday
illuminatty
New Member
I see it on the first page you are gaining weight.
One recommendation I would track macros more rigidly. Don't neglect fats. You need fats to regulate the brain and normal hormone function.
How much are you weighing now?
Find your total daily energy expenditure. If you google TDEE calculator, you will find one easily. Plug in your activity levels and etc and it'll give you a rough estimate of how much calories you are burning on a daily basis.
If you're bulking on gear go for 500-700 cals above maintenance. Protein at 1.5-2g per pound of body weight. In your case eat 250 or so. Keep fats around 0.45g per pound of body weight. Then fill the rest of your calories with carbs of your choice.
And as your weight moved up keep upping cals and adjust accordingly.
One recommendation I would track macros more rigidly. Don't neglect fats. You need fats to regulate the brain and normal hormone function.
How much are you weighing now?
Find your total daily energy expenditure. If you google TDEE calculator, you will find one easily. Plug in your activity levels and etc and it'll give you a rough estimate of how much calories you are burning on a daily basis.
If you're bulking on gear go for 500-700 cals above maintenance. Protein at 1.5-2g per pound of body weight. In your case eat 250 or so. Keep fats around 0.45g per pound of body weight. Then fill the rest of your calories with carbs of your choice.
And as your weight moved up keep upping cals and adjust accordingly.
Hey guys!!! I thought I would let you know that I've been sick the past couple days and I have been avoiding the gym. I'm also not eating a lot because I have no appetite. I think I'm still the same weight maybe a little under the 150lbs mark but, not to worry because I will be back and running by monday!
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