Test / E2 Golden Ratio?

[Juiced01]

I tried searching for this exact question and came up short so I'm looking for an answer here. It is always best to run testosterone without the use of an AI if it is not needed, and this all boils down to the individuals body chemistry such as aromatization rates, body fat, etc.

That being said, when taking test since you are raising your levels to supraphysiological levels (not in the normal range of say 300-1,000 ng/dl) why would you want to keep your e2 within the "normal" range? Wouldn't it make sense that e2 would need to be higher than it would be compared to when you're natty?

The reason I think of this is because I'm on a small cruise 270 mg of test. I take 25 mg of Aromasin EOD, and I took an ultrasensitive estradiol test and my e2 level came back at 15 pg/ml which is "normal".

This seems like a lot of Aromasin to me, and I do realize I may be one of the people who aromatize at a higher rate. But my original question still holds - Is there some ratio that needs to be maintained between test and e2 levels in the body or do we raise our test levels as much as we want as long as e2 is held in the normal reference range (even though the normal reference range was found with normal test levels)?

 

[KeenObserver]

That being said, when taking test since you are raising your levels to supraphysiological levels (not in the normal range of say 300-1,000 ng/dl) why would you want to keep your e2 within the "normal" range?

Because we don't want tits or mood swings. Testosterone being up extremely high helps us build more muscle and build it faster, bla bla I don't need to explain the benefits of steroids lol.

Even though E2 being elevated does help with anabolism and it supports the process as a whole, having it equivalently high as our testosterone is only going to do more harm than good. We're not trying to become females here.

The goal is to have it as high as possible to where the side effects are still cut off. I'd say 15 pg/ml that you tested at is actually on the low end and you could affort to cut back on the AI a bit, even if that means splitting pills and fiddling with things a bit. I've been able to have it at around 60 before things start going buck wild.

 

[Juiced01]

Because we don't want tits or mood swings. Testosterone being up extremely high helps us build more muscle and build it faster, bla bla I don't need to explain the benefits of steroids lol.

Even though E2 being elevated does help with anabolism and it supports the process as a whole, having it equivalently high as our testosterone is only going to do more harm than good. We're not trying to become females here.

The goal is to have it as high as possible to where the side effects are still cut off. I'd say 15 pg/ml that you tested at is actually on the low end and you could affort to cut back on the AI a bit, even if that means splitting pills and fiddling with things a bit. I've been able to have it at around 60 before things start going buck wild.

Obviously we want testosterone to be higher than estrogen. I never said equivalent. What I'm getting at is if there is a range for e2 for normal test values then there should exist a range when test levels are higher than the normal values.

I see you mentioned 60 pg/ml, that's what I'm basically asking for. I'll lower my AI use but when I lower it to 12.5 mg EOD I'm at 67 ng/dl. Does that sound okay?

 

[KeenObserver]

Obviously we want testosterone to be higher than estrogen. I never said equivalent. What I'm getting at is if there is a range for e2 for normal test values then there should exist a range when test levels are higher than the normal values.

I see you mentioned 60 pg/ml, that's what I'm basically asking for. I'll lower my AI use but when I lower it to 12.5 mg EOD I'm at 67 ng/dl. Does that sound okay?

I meant equivalently high within their respective concentrations, not literally the same, since E2 can't get to 5000 ng/dl like test can. Basically get testosterone as high as possible, while keeping E2 at the highest value you can where side effects don't happen. That number is different for everyone, side effects may happen for you at 40 whereas it may happen for others at 80. As long as your dick works, you aren't actively growing tits, and you can stay awake during the day then you're pretty much good.

 

[Zeus45]

Estrogen will go higher the more testosterone you use. Having high estrogen does not mean a thing, its about estrogen sensitivity. Androgens as a class inherently have anti estrogenic effects like testosterone's metabolite DHT.

Estrogen sensitizes androgen receptors and is anabolic.

 

[Type-IIx]

Estrogen will go higher the more testosterone you use. Having high estrogen does not mean a thing, its about estrogen sensitivity. Androgens as a class inherently have anti estrogenic effects like testosterone's metabolite DHT.

Estrogen sensitizes androgen receptors and is anabolic.

Except that progestagenic androgens sensitize to estrogens. See Article on distinguishing progestins, prolactin, and progestagenic androgens (e.g., Tren, MENT, Deca) & SERM vs. AI logic [by Type-IIx]

But this is sort of the exception proving the rule.

I don't know that estrogen sensitizes AR (insulin does & there is cross-talk between T & IGF-I), but E2 is muscle anabolic (probably by ER-β's regulation of muscle mass & perhaps by regulating satellite cells).

 

[GuerillaPete]

You have to try different ratios to see where you as an individual feel and operate best .

 

[MrUniverse]

1:40 ratio is generally well tolerated by many.
a good place to start

 

[narta]

The golden ratio is to let e2 high enough, but not so high to experience side effects aka ED, gyno, wild mood swing etc.

And that ratio is purely individual.

 

[Zeus45]

Except that progestagenic androgens sensitize to estrogens. See Article on distinguishing progestins, prolactin, and progestagenic androgens (e.g., Tren, MENT, Deca) & SERM vs. AI logic [by Type-IIx]

But this is sort of the exception proving the rule.

I don't know that estrogen sensitizes AR (insulin does & there is cross-talk between T & IGF-I), but E2 is muscle anabolic (probably by ER-β's regulation of muscle mass & perhaps by regulating satellite cells).

Deca is a estrogen sensitizer. Muscular development has written about it. Test + Deca is much more Estrogenic than Test + Tren and I think that has to do with nandrolone being weakly androgenic and tren being potently androgenic. I’m sure everyone reacts differently since I have seen people claim to get tren Gyno.

 

[MrUniverse]

Deca is a estrogen sensitizer. Muscular development has written about it. Test + Deca is much more Estrogenic than Test + Tren and I think that has to do with nandrolone being weakly androgenic and tren being potently androgenic. I’m sure everyone reacts differently since I have seen people claim to get tren Gyno.

deca aromatizes while tren doesn't, of course a stack made of two compounds that aromatize is definitely more estrogenic than a test-only stack that aromatizes.
this is true regardless of androgenic potency

 

[Type-IIx]

Deca is a estrogen sensitizer. Muscular development has written about it. Test + Deca is much more Estrogenic than Test + Tren and I think that has to do with nandrolone being weakly androgenic and tren being potently androgenic. I’m sure everyone reacts differently since I have seen people claim to get tren Gyno.

You say this like what I wrote isn't worth reading because something MD wrote earlier (First!) touches upon a small aspect of what I wrote.

 

[Zeus45]

deca aromatizes while tren doesn't, of course a stack made of two compounds that aromatize is definitely more estrogenic than a test-only stack that aromatizes.
this is true regardless of androgenic potency

Deca doesn’t aromatize. It’s theory of converting to E2 20% the rate of Testosterone is not true.

"Nandrolone is a naturally occurring steroid that appears as an intermediate in the conversion of testosterone to estradiol by the aromatase enzyme601; however, it is not normally present in the human bloodstream. The aromatase enzyme complex undertakes two successive hydroxylations on the angular C19 methyl group of testosterone followed by a cleavage of the C10-C19 bond to release formic acid and aromatize the A ring.602 Nandrolone represents a penultimate step of the aromatization reaction while it is bound to the enzyme complex, including the C19 methyl group excised but a still nonaromatic A ring. Paradoxically, despite being an intermediate in the aromatization reaction, after parenteral administration nandrolone is virtually not aromatized, presumably as a poor substrate with hindered access to the human aromatase enzyme."

 

[MrUniverse]

Deca doesn’t aromatize. It’s theory of converting to E2 20% the rate of Testosterone is not true.

well, the evidence of this?

 

[Zeus45]

well, the evidence of this?

Nandrolone, a 19-nortestosterone, enhances insulin-independent glucose uptake in normal men.

The effect of exogenous androgens on glucose metabolism is controversial. This study was designed to clarify the impact of testosterone enanthate (TE), an

academic.oup.com

This study was designed to clarify the impact of testosterone enanthate (TE), an aromatizable androgen, and nandrolone decanoate (ND), a nonaromatizable androgen, on glucose disposal.

 

[MrUniverse]

Nandrolone, a 19-nortestosterone, enhances insulin-independent glucose uptake in normal men.

The effect of exogenous androgens on glucose metabolism is controversial. This study was designed to clarify the impact of testosterone enanthate (TE), an

academic.oup.com

This study was designed to clarify the impact of testosterone enanthate (TE), an aromatizable androgen, and nandrolone decanoate (ND), a nonaromatizable androgen, on glucose disposal.

well, a single article....this is not science. anyone can publish an article or study.
furthermore, I don't think there is a single piece of evidence in this article that nandrolone is not aromatizable.
it just says it's not.
on the same principle I can tell you that I bought a horse because it flies and it takes me less to move.

moreover, if you read carefully it says that nandrolone does not aromatize to estradiol (which is the reason why it was chosen) but nandrolone mainly aromatizes to estrone and estriol, in smaller quantities than estradiol generated by the conversion of testosterone.

 

[Type-IIx]

well, a single article....this is not science. anyone can publish an article or study.
furthermore, I don't think there is a single piece of evidence in this article that nandrolone is not aromatizable.
it just says it's not.
on the same principle I can tell you that I bought a horse because it flies and it takes me less to move.

moreover, if you read carefully it says that nandrolone does not aromatize to estradiol (which is the reason why it was chosen) but nandrolone mainly aromatizes to estrone and estriol, in smaller quantities than estradiol generated by the conversion of testosterone.

While I of course agree with you that nandrolone is aromatizable (at ~20% the rate of testosterone), don't discard the value of evidence based on frustration, and insodoing, fall back on making your own misrepresentations that this study is not science or that anyone can publish a single study.

Read the article, they use the term "non-aromatizable" as we would say "resistant" to aromatization, not devoid of affinity for aromatase with biological significance.

Zeus seems to be trying to pull a fast one on you, and your frustration with his misrepresentation is leading you to say silly things; don't fall into his trap for that.

Nandrolone, a 19-nortestosterone, enhances insulin-independent glucose uptake in normal men.

The effect of exogenous androgens on glucose metabolism is controversial. This study was designed to clarify the impact of testosterone enanthate (TE), an

academic.oup.com

This study was designed to clarify the impact of testosterone enanthate (TE), an aromatizable androgen, and nandrolone decanoate (ND), a nonaromatizable androgen, on glucose disposal.

Nandrolone is resistant to aromatization but does produce E2 by aromatase activity (~20% the rate of testosterone); this means that at low-moderate doses it can lead to sub-normal E2, but at high doses, the opposite.

I believe that you should and probably even do know this, at least you've already been shown this, but you seem committed to this ignorant manner of communicating yourself and refusing to change your position about anything even when presented with facts about this or that.

 

[MrUniverse]

While I of course agree with you that nandrolone is aromatizable (at ~20% the rate of testosterone), don't discard the value of evidence based on frustration, and insodoing, fall back on making your own misrepresentations that this study is not science or that anyone can publish a single study.

Read the article, they use the term "non-aromatizable" as we would say "resistant" to aromatization, not devoid of affinity for aromatase with biological significance.

Zeus seems to be trying to pull a fast one on you, and your frustration with his misrepresentation is leading you to say silly things; don't fall into his trap for that.


Nandrolone is resistant to aromatization but does produce E2 by aromatase activity (~20% the rate of testosterone); this means that at low-moderate doses it can lead to sub-normal E2, but at high doses, the opposite.

I believe that you should and probably even do know this, at least you've already been shown this, but you seem committed to this ignorant manner of communicating yourself and refusing to change your position about anything even when presented with facts about this or that.

English is not my native language and sometimes it's hard to communicate the right thing.
but, at least in my language, the words and phrases have a definite meaning.
deca does not aromatize
deca aromatises little
deca does not aromatize to estradiol
are 3 different sentences with different value and meaning

to say that deca does not aromatize and then give a link where there is no evidence of this, does not seem correct to me.
in the study they limit themselves to saying that it does not aromatize or that it aromatises little, I asked for a study where this is evident and the conclusion is reached that deca does not aromatize.
the indicated study focuses on something completely different, just read the title.

the problem of making certain statements, such as "deca does not aromatize" and that's it, is incorrect.
neophyte people who read these things then get the wrong idea about compounds.

I don't want to make a war of it, I really don't care.

but words have meanings and composed sentences too.
either it is right or it is wrong.
I just wanted to point out the inaccuracy of his sentence. that's all

 

[Zeus45]

While I of course agree with you that nandrolone is aromatizable (at ~20% the rate of testosterone), don't discard the value of evidence based on frustration, and insodoing, fall back on making your own misrepresentations that this study is not science or that anyone can publish a single study.

Read the article, they use the term "non-aromatizable" as we would say "resistant" to aromatization, not devoid of affinity for aromatase with biological significance.

Zeus seems to be trying to pull a fast one on you, and your frustration with his misrepresentation is leading you to say silly things; don't fall into his trap for that.


Nandrolone is resistant to aromatization but does produce E2 by aromatase activity (~20% the rate of testosterone); this means that at low-moderate doses it can lead to sub-normal E2, but at high doses, the opposite.

I believe that you should and probably even do know this, at least you've already been shown this, but you seem committed to this ignorant manner of communicating yourself and refusing to change your position about anything even when presented with facts about this or that.

Things play out differently in practical application. Just Like how EQ aromatizes at 50% the rate of testosterone but that’s not the case for everyone. I’ve seen nandrolone only bloodwork and nothing is convincing me it aromatizes to any significant extent.

 

[hexa]

My blood numbers were:
Test 497nmol
Estradiolio 630 and I felt very well. So,that ratio questionable. Till you have no sides can be lower or higher.