The Body is a Thermostat: The Science of Losing/Gaining Weight, Body Weight Sensing, and Leptin Signalling

MFAAS

Well-known Member
AnabolicLab.com Supporter
The body is a thermostat. Everyone has a set point where their body wants to be as far as weight goes. It is something most of us have probably heard, since we're into physique and lifting. The majority of people have never heard this and have no idea what this means though.

This set point is one of the big drivers of our appetites (when we are properly using our bodies, more on that later). It is also independent of your mind and anything else. No matter how bad you want to gain/lose weight in your head, your body doesn't care. The body has this set point where it says, I want to weight 215 lbs and if my weight goes above or below that by more than a couple pounds, I am going to mess with hunger to ensure the owner of this body eats less or more accordingly. That is why as you lose weight during a cut, it gets harder and harder as you lose more and more weight. You appetite gets stronger and stronger. That is also why during a bulk, once you've gained 20 pounds in the last few months or so, many people start finding it harder to continue eating at the surplus level (and particularly to continue to increase their surplus) they need to continue gaining weight.

This is also why SO MANY of the billions of obese people on this planet struggle desperately to try to lose even 10-20 lbs. They might have 100 pounds of fat around their abdomen and 40 more on their ass cheeks, but once they lose 10 of those pounds, they start feeling hungrier and adhering to their diet becomes nearly impossible.

The body isn't saying that this is the healthiest weight for them to be at. It isn't saying they shouldn't lose weight, but when the body loses weight, it gets scared. Scared that it is going to starve to death. Our evolution has not caught up to the overabundance of food that the majority of the developed world has nowadays. However, it is very possible for us to change this set point and allow ourselves to gain/lose weight in a sustainable way. All you need to do is buy my book for 5 easy payments of $25.99...

So what is the mechanism behind this thermostat?

Well, we actually know a fair amount about how this works. There have been a few studies done on the matter, so I will link them here then summarize where we are at today:
1. How the skeleton reacts to changes in body weight
2. What is Leptin?
3. Leptin and the regulation of body weight in mammals
4. Body weight homeostat that regulates fat mass independently of leptin in rats and mice
- There is a TON of other studies on leptin regulating body weight, mutations that alter leptin production to cause obesity, and much more.

Based off some of those studies, there is evidence of bone sensing body weight on multiple levels:

1. Each individual bone senses the load against it and adjusts its density accordingly. The principle behind this is known as Wolff's Law and "the Mechanostat." The more time under tension as well as the amount of tension a bone is put under, the greater the bone mass in that area. For example, the femur is a very long bone that experiences a lot of sheer force from walking, running, biking, getting up and down from sitting/laying positions, and even many sex positions !(hey guys I'm trying to make this a fun lesson here!). The arms however, are loaded much less. Under normal natural circumstances, very few positions really stress the arms, mainly just carrying things and going prone perhaps during hunting or other activities (cough SEX cough).

The key here is that it is both time under tension as well as load. So an obese person who sits all day might have really poor bone density, whereas an obese person working at a job where they stand most of the day would have much higher bone density. Similarly, military guys doing ruck marches are going to have super dense leg bones compared to someone who just walks around normally. The more time you spend on your feet, the higher the bone density will be in your lower extremities. Weightlifting also increases bone density. You may have seen videos of powerlifters benching where their arm bones are literally bowing outward as they lift incredible weights. You bet their bones sense this and will automagically increase bone density the more and heavier they lift. Thankfully bones are quit forgiving, nature and evolution has given us this amazing substance called bone which is both quit flexible and also extremely sturdy :)

2. There is a set point in bone too as far as the strain they aim to experience. This set point is "remarkably similar across different species and activities measuring approximately 2–3000 με (2–3 × 10−3)" (1). As mechanical loading increases, bones formation will occur to make the bone stiffer, thus reducing strain on the bone and making it so future loads of the same weight don't overload the bone and instead cause the target set point strain.

So points 1 and 2 above demonstrate that our bones sense our body weight and respond accordingly by increasing or decreasing bone mass in areas under mechanical load. This lays the baseline for the information that is coming next, which is why we're all reading this (or at least hopefully you're reading... don't forget to buy my book!)

3. Now, getting to the hunger and weight side of things. Leptin is a hormone released by adipocytes (fat cells) and plays a very important role in our body's ability to maintain homeostatis (2). Leptin plays many roles in the body, but we are just going to focus on one: leptin tells the body it is satiated. This is the opposite of ghrelin, which tells the body it is hungry.
- A shortlist of things that increase leptin (making you less hungry): eating; overfeeding; glucose/sugar; amino acids (protein); insulin; glucocorticoids; estrogens.

4. The key finding to this whole body weight set point principal is that mechanical loading of bone ALSO effects leptin levels. That is what is demonstrated in study 4. This study is fascinating and I encourage that you read it. However, I can summarize the results here: our bones sense how much we weigh and not only manage bone mass accordingly, but also regulate leptin levels. Thus, when the bones sense that he body has recently quickly lost weight, it will increase hunger in an attempt to gain it back. When the body senses it has quickly gained weight, it will decrease hunger in an attempt to lose it. The body doesn't want to gain more weight and the body also doesn't want to lose more weight. It wants to maintain homeostasis.

Now, this is a critical finding and paves the way for a bunch more incredible information:

The body is a thermostat. These studies have proven it. The body says, I have weight 200 lbs for the last 3 years and I want to continue to weigh 200 lbs. HOWEVER, we can change this. The thermostat setting can be moved up or down, but it must be done with that. Many of us have experienced the difficult I mentioned earlier. The body will do ALMOST ANYTHING to maintain homeostasis. When you are deep in a cut, getting down into that sub 10% body fat range, your body starts to FUCK YOU in an effort not to lose any more weight. It ramps up ghrelin production and reduces leptin to make your hunger go through the roof, it starts to subconsciously reduce your NEAT (non-exercise activated thermogenesis, stuff like fidgeting, wanting to get up and walk around) and make you more sedentary to preserve energy, it starts to fuck your hormones up, reducing androgens, thyroid hormones, all sorts of things. It will do anything to get back to where that set point is. Likewise, if someone gains a lot of weight, the body will often do what it can to burn calories: increasing NEAT; changing hormones accordingly; and reducing appetite.

The thermostat isn't like the one on the wall where it is EXACT. There is a tolerance in either direction of some number of pounds (or kilograms, if that's your thing). So your body wants to weight 215. Well you might take a big shit and that puts you down to 212. Your body doesn't freak out and tell you to eat more; the body is fine with that little fluctuation. Nobody knows exactly what the tolerance level is in either direction and it also could (and probably does) vary based off individual. Some people might be more sensitive to weight loss than others. Others might be more sensitive to weight gain. Some might be really sensitive to both.

Now, the key to changing that set point is to change it SLOWLY, SUSTAINABLY, and SMARTLY.
- SLOWLY: as I said, the body has a tolerance for weight loss/gain in either direction. By changing your weight more slowly, your body is able to adjust to the change in weight. If you gain 0.5 or 1 pound per week for, or lose 0.5-1 pound per week, usually the body can deal with that kind of thing--at least for a while. 3 months down the line when you're 15 pounds heavier or lighter, the body might say, hold up, this is getting to be a little too much. This is where diet breaks can be helpful. Go up or down in calories to your new maintenance level and let your body adjust to this new point you're at. Most people have a higher tolerance for weight gain than for weight loss, especially guys like us with already low body fat levels.
- SUSTAINABLY: making sustainable diet choices is critical when you're trying to change your set point. This goes hand in hand with doing things slowly. Not only is there the actual physical aspect to weight gain/loss that I have discussed all this time, but there is a-whole-nother world to weight loss that is the psychological side. So many people struggle to cut out sugar, or stop drinking soda, or whatever. Forming new habits is critical AND can take a really long fucking time! For someone who is used to eating sugars for the last 10 years, for them to cut that out is going to be really hard, not only is sugar addictive, but you are changing your habits too. Making sustainable changes in a methodical manner is critical to success.
- SMARTLY: There are things we can do to beat the body. The body is a genius, but the body is also limited in that it can't think. It just does this stuff automaticaly. The rest of this post is about the tricks and shortcomings of this whole process.

So skeletal loading alters hunger. Well, one of the huge shortcomings in that is due to our evolution and modern society. Humans were never meant to sit in a chair all day. We were meant to be standing, squatting, walking, running, carrying things around--basically mostly doing anything but sitting/laying down. Now, a vast number of people work desk jobs and a concerningly large number of people don't do any physical activity at all, they just watch pathetically bad TV shows and rot their brain with social media and the news. Well, when we sit, that means our skeleton is not loaded!! This means that the whole feedback loop of the bones sensing our weight, changing bone density and increasing/decreasing leptin accordingly STOPS HAPPENING!!! So for someone who is working a desk job, they might be gaining a ton of weight, but their appetite is solely driven by blood glucose levels and sugar addiction.

For body builders, this means a few things can be done to help "trick" the body into making our cuts easier. This hypothetical/theoretical, but it makes sense and I've seen these points backed up by anecdotes:
1. Sit more. That feedback loop that breaks when sitting goes both directions? So the office worker who is getting morbidly obese because their leptin signaling is broken (and they are likely resistant to leptin, just like insulin) could go the other direction too. As we start to lose weight, if our skeleton senses that weight loss because we are standing or walking all day, it will lower leptin, causing us to be hungrier. Most successful body builders I know follow a cutting schedule like: lift X times per week, do their allotted cardio, then just chill. I've had some friends tell me that they find cutting easier when they bike more instead of run, which makes some sense as you're loading your legs via the bike resistance as well as sitting on the seat.
2. Increase gravity. You can control gravity right? By increasing gravity, you become heavier, so your body will...just kidding. HOWEVER, what you can do is try wearing a weighted vest! By wearing a weighted vest--it doesn't have to be much, just like 5-10 pounds, you are tricking your skeleton into thinking you weigh more than you do--that you aren't losing weight like you are on a cut. Thus, that feedback loop is hacked and your cut can become that much easier. I have also seen this backed up by a couple guys, one wore a 7 lb vest and the other wore a 10 lb vest, both of them said wearing vest seemed to cause that cut to be the easiest one they've ever done.
- Now, the downside is once you take that vest off, the feedback loop is activated again. So perhaps this is really only a good tactic to use for something like a photo shoot, competition, or porno video shoot where you wanna be lean as fuck on camera (lol). Otherwise, you'll be stuck wearing a weighted vest for the rest of your life lol.
3. Bulk then cut. I always see people ask, should I bulk or cut? Unless you're at or above 20% body fat, IMO you should always bulk first. By gaining 10-20 lbs of mostly muscle in that 12-16 week bulk cycle (or whatever length it is), the weight gained will put you above your body's set point. So you're setting yourself up to be able to cut successfully afterwards. Once you've gained that muscle, your BMR goes up, you can start standing/walking more and your appetite will go down, making it easier to cut. You can then lose weight (again, slowly and sustainable) and get yourself back down towards where your set point is, but only with more muscle and less fat!

That's all I've got. Hope you found it interesting!
 
The body is a thermostat. Everyone has a set point where their body wants to be as far as weight goes. It is something most of us have probably heard, since we're into physique and lifting. The majority of people have never heard this and have no idea what this means though.

This set point is one of the big drivers of our appetites (when we are properly using our bodies, more on that later). It is also independent of your mind and anything else. No matter how bad you want to gain/lose weight in your head, your body doesn't care. The body has this set point where it says, I want to weight 215 lbs and if my weight goes above or below that by more than a couple pounds, I am going to mess with hunger to ensure the owner of this body eats less or more accordingly. That is why as you lose weight during a cut, it gets harder and harder as you lose more and more weight. You appetite gets stronger and stronger. That is also why during a bulk, once you've gained 20 pounds in the last few months or so, many people start finding it harder to continue eating at the surplus level (and particularly to continue to increase their surplus) they need to continue gaining weight.

This is also why SO MANY of the billions of obese people on this planet struggle desperately to try to lose even 10-20 lbs. They might have 100 pounds of fat around their abdomen and 40 more on their ass cheeks, but once they lose 10 of those pounds, they start feeling hungrier and adhering to their diet becomes nearly impossible.

The body isn't saying that this is the healthiest weight for them to be at. It isn't saying they shouldn't lose weight, but when the body loses weight, it gets scared. Scared that it is going to starve to death. Our evolution has not caught up to the overabundance of food that the majority of the developed world has nowadays. However, it is very possible for us to change this set point and allow ourselves to gain/lose weight in a sustainable way. All you need to do is buy my book for 5 easy payments of $25.99...

So what is the mechanism behind this thermostat?

Well, we actually know a fair amount about how this works. There have been a few studies done on the matter, so I will link them here then summarize where we are at today:
1. How the skeleton reacts to changes in body weight
2. What is Leptin?
3. Leptin and the regulation of body weight in mammals
4. Body weight homeostat that regulates fat mass independently of leptin in rats and mice
- There is a TON of other studies on leptin regulating body weight, mutations that alter leptin production to cause obesity, and much more.

Based off some of those studies, there is evidence of bone sensing body weight on multiple levels:

1. Each individual bone senses the load against it and adjusts its density accordingly. The principle behind this is known as Wolff's Law and "the Mechanostat." The more time under tension as well as the amount of tension a bone is put under, the greater the bone mass in that area. For example, the femur is a very long bone that experiences a lot of sheer force from walking, running, biking, getting up and down from sitting/laying positions, and even many sex positions !(hey guys I'm trying to make this a fun lesson here!). The arms however, are loaded much less. Under normal natural circumstances, very few positions really stress the arms, mainly just carrying things and going prone perhaps during hunting or other activities (cough SEX cough).

The key here is that it is both time under tension as well as load. So an obese person who sits all day might have really poor bone density, whereas an obese person working at a job where they stand most of the day would have much higher bone density. Similarly, military guys doing ruck marches are going to have super dense leg bones compared to someone who just walks around normally. The more time you spend on your feet, the higher the bone density will be in your lower extremities. Weightlifting also increases bone density. You may have seen videos of powerlifters benching where their arm bones are literally bowing outward as they lift incredible weights. You bet their bones sense this and will automagically increase bone density the more and heavier they lift. Thankfully bones are quit forgiving, nature and evolution has given us this amazing substance called bone which is both quit flexible and also extremely sturdy :)

2. There is a set point in bone too as far as the strain they aim to experience. This set point is "remarkably similar across different species and activities measuring approximately 2–3000 με (2–3 × 10−3)" (1). As mechanical loading increases, bones formation will occur to make the bone stiffer, thus reducing strain on the bone and making it so future loads of the same weight don't overload the bone and instead cause the target set point strain.

So points 1 and 2 above demonstrate that our bones sense our body weight and respond accordingly by increasing or decreasing bone mass in areas under mechanical load. This lays the baseline for the information that is coming next, which is why we're all reading this (or at least hopefully you're reading... don't forget to buy my book!)

3. Now, getting to the hunger and weight side of things. Leptin is a hormone released by adipocytes (fat cells) and plays a very important role in our body's ability to maintain homeostatis (2). Leptin plays many roles in the body, but we are just going to focus on one: leptin tells the body it is satiated. This is the opposite of ghrelin, which tells the body it is hungry.
- A shortlist of things that increase leptin (making you less hungry): eating; overfeeding; glucose/sugar; amino acids (protein); insulin; glucocorticoids; estrogens.

4. The key finding to this whole body weight set point principal is that mechanical loading of bone ALSO effects leptin levels. That is what is demonstrated in study 4. This study is fascinating and I encourage that you read it. However, I can summarize the results here: our bones sense how much we weigh and not only manage bone mass accordingly, but also regulate leptin levels. Thus, when the bones sense that he body has recently quickly lost weight, it will increase hunger in an attempt to gain it back. When the body senses it has quickly gained weight, it will decrease hunger in an attempt to lose it. The body doesn't want to gain more weight and the body also doesn't want to lose more weight. It wants to maintain homeostasis.

Now, this is a critical finding and paves the way for a bunch more incredible information:

The body is a thermostat. These studies have proven it. The body says, I have weight 200 lbs for the last 3 years and I want to continue to weigh 200 lbs. HOWEVER, we can change this. The thermostat setting can be moved up or down, but it must be done with that. Many of us have experienced the difficult I mentioned earlier. The body will do ALMOST ANYTHING to maintain homeostasis. When you are deep in a cut, getting down into that sub 10% body fat range, your body starts to FUCK YOU in an effort not to lose any more weight. It ramps up ghrelin production and reduces leptin to make your hunger go through the roof, it starts to subconsciously reduce your NEAT (non-exercise activated thermogenesis, stuff like fidgeting, wanting to get up and walk around) and make you more sedentary to preserve energy, it starts to fuck your hormones up, reducing androgens, thyroid hormones, all sorts of things. It will do anything to get back to where that set point is. Likewise, if someone gains a lot of weight, the body will often do what it can to burn calories: increasing NEAT; changing hormones accordingly; and reducing appetite.

The thermostat isn't like the one on the wall where it is EXACT. There is a tolerance in either direction of some number of pounds (or kilograms, if that's your thing). So your body wants to weight 215. Well you might take a big shit and that puts you down to 212. Your body doesn't freak out and tell you to eat more; the body is fine with that little fluctuation. Nobody knows exactly what the tolerance level is in either direction and it also could (and probably does) vary based off individual. Some people might be more sensitive to weight loss than others. Others might be more sensitive to weight gain. Some might be really sensitive to both.

Now, the key to changing that set point is to change it SLOWLY, SUSTAINABLY, and SMARTLY.
- SLOWLY: as I said, the body has a tolerance for weight loss/gain in either direction. By changing your weight more slowly, your body is able to adjust to the change in weight. If you gain 0.5 or 1 pound per week for, or lose 0.5-1 pound per week, usually the body can deal with that kind of thing--at least for a while. 3 months down the line when you're 15 pounds heavier or lighter, the body might say, hold up, this is getting to be a little too much. This is where diet breaks can be helpful. Go up or down in calories to your new maintenance level and let your body adjust to this new point you're at. Most people have a higher tolerance for weight gain than for weight loss, especially guys like us with already low body fat levels.
- SUSTAINABLY: making sustainable diet choices is critical when you're trying to change your set point. This goes hand in hand with doing things slowly. Not only is there the actual physical aspect to weight gain/loss that I have discussed all this time, but there is a-whole-nother world to weight loss that is the psychological side. So many people struggle to cut out sugar, or stop drinking soda, or whatever. Forming new habits is critical AND can take a really long fucking time! For someone who is used to eating sugars for the last 10 years, for them to cut that out is going to be really hard, not only is sugar addictive, but you are changing your habits too. Making sustainable changes in a methodical manner is critical to success.
- SMARTLY: There are things we can do to beat the body. The body is a genius, but the body is also limited in that it can't think. It just does this stuff automaticaly. The rest of this post is about the tricks and shortcomings of this whole process.

So skeletal loading alters hunger. Well, one of the huge shortcomings in that is due to our evolution and modern society. Humans were never meant to sit in a chair all day. We were meant to be standing, squatting, walking, running, carrying things around--basically mostly doing anything but sitting/laying down. Now, a vast number of people work desk jobs and a concerningly large number of people don't do any physical activity at all, they just watch pathetically bad TV shows and rot their brain with social media and the news. Well, when we sit, that means our skeleton is not loaded!! This means that the whole feedback loop of the bones sensing our weight, changing bone density and increasing/decreasing leptin accordingly STOPS HAPPENING!!! So for someone who is working a desk job, they might be gaining a ton of weight, but their appetite is solely driven by blood glucose levels and sugar addiction.

For body builders, this means a few things can be done to help "trick" the body into making our cuts easier. This hypothetical/theoretical, but it makes sense and I've seen these points backed up by anecdotes:
1. Sit more. That feedback loop that breaks when sitting goes both directions? So the office worker who is getting morbidly obese because their leptin signaling is broken (and they are likely resistant to leptin, just like insulin) could go the other direction too. As we start to lose weight, if our skeleton senses that weight loss because we are standing or walking all day, it will lower leptin, causing us to be hungrier. Most successful body builders I know follow a cutting schedule like: lift X times per week, do their allotted cardio, then just chill. I've had some friends tell me that they find cutting easier when they bike more instead of run, which makes some sense as you're loading your legs via the bike resistance as well as sitting on the seat.
2. Increase gravity. You can control gravity right? By increasing gravity, you become heavier, so your body will...just kidding. HOWEVER, what you can do is try wearing a weighted vest! By wearing a weighted vest--it doesn't have to be much, just like 5-10 pounds, you are tricking your skeleton into thinking you weigh more than you do--that you aren't losing weight like you are on a cut. Thus, that feedback loop is hacked and your cut can become that much easier. I have also seen this backed up by a couple guys, one wore a 7 lb vest and the other wore a 10 lb vest, both of them said wearing vest seemed to cause that cut to be the easiest one they've ever done.
- Now, the downside is once you take that vest off, the feedback loop is activated again. So perhaps this is really only a good tactic to use for something like a photo shoot, competition, or porno video shoot where you wanna be lean as fuck on camera (lol). Otherwise, you'll be stuck wearing a weighted vest for the rest of your life lol.
3. Bulk then cut. I always see people ask, should I bulk or cut? Unless you're at or above 20% body fat, IMO you should always bulk first. By gaining 10-20 lbs of mostly muscle in that 12-16 week bulk cycle (or whatever length it is), the weight gained will put you above your body's set point. So you're setting yourself up to be able to cut successfully afterwards. Once you've gained that muscle, your BMR goes up, you can start standing/walking more and your appetite will go down, making it easier to cut. You can then lose weight (again, slowly and sustainable) and get yourself back down towards where your set point is, but only with more muscle and less fat!

That's all I've got. Hope you found it interesting!
Amazing post. My set point is 225 and always is. I have got to 250, and my body goes easily up and down from 235-245 but onces i hit 225 going up or down, my body loves this weight. Absolutely loves it.
 
Amazing post. My set point is 225 and always is. I have got to 250, and my body goes easily up and down from 235-245 but onces i hit 225 going up or down, my body loves this weight. Absolutely loves it.
Thanks man! Mine is similar. About 220 or so I am happy. More than that I would need some kind of appetite stimulant. I'm considering playing with a weighted vest and standing more for my upcoming cut to see how it goes. Haven't tried it myself and it doesn't seem to have caught on in the community, but the few people I have heard try it have said really good things.
 
Good post. Lyle McDonald has a good series of articles on Leptin that I read years ago, found extremely interesting.

I've been extremely fat, fairly lean, and all points in between over the last 15 years. I can say my body seems to want to stay around a certain weight, I could never maintain a very lean body fat level long.
 
I weighed over 300lbs after being sedentary for 6 months after spine surgery. Went down to 193 in 18 months, was looking to just strip all the fat off and start all over again. Prior to surgery, I trained for over 25 years, 250lbs being kind of where I floated. When I tell you I had the worst ghrelin issues at 193, I can’t even begin to tell you the volume of food I was able to eat, and never satiated, that lasted all the way up to about 240, then slowed dramatically. I was eating up to 7000 cals/day on keto. It was just absurd.
 
I weighed over 300lbs after being sedentary for 6 months after spine surgery. Went down to 193 in 18 months, was looking to just strip all the fat off and start all over again. Prior to surgery, I trained for over 25 years, 250lbs being kind of where I floated. When I tell you I had the worst ghrelin issues at 193, I can’t even begin to tell you the volume of food I was able to eat, and never satiated, that lasted all the way up to about 240, then slowed dramatically. I was eating up to 7000 cals/day on keto. It was just absurd.
Can you eat that much protein without the process of “gluconeugenesis”(sp?) occuring converting protein the glucose and kicking you out of keto?
 
Can you eat that much protein without the process of “gluconeugenesis”(sp?) occuring converting protein the glucose and kicking you out of keto?
Gluconeogenesis....demand driven, not a concern, really. Grilled chicken doesn’t turn into chocolate cake :). Look at it this way, when you’re cutting and in deficit, as long as you’re under maintenance, you’re losing fat. Ketosis and fat loss are mutually exclusive. That high fat keto is for epileptics, et al.
 
Gluconeogenesis....demand driven, not a concern, really. Grilled chicken doesn’t turn into chocolate cake :). Look at it this way, when you’re cutting and in deficit, as long as you’re under maintenance, you’re losing fat. Ketosis and fat loss are mutually exclusive. That high fat keto is for epileptics, et al.
Dam so that 7000 cals on keto was still a defecit?
 
Dam so that 7000 cals on keto was still a defecit?
Haha, no, sorry, I went off on the gluconeogenesis tangent. I was bulking. So, even in that case, if I wasn’t in ketosis, it wasn’t all that important either, as I was trying to gain. Ketosis is just the lack of carbs. You can get into ketosis just fasting.
 
Haha, no, sorry, I went off on the gluconeogenesis tangent. I was bulking. So, even in that case, if I wasn’t in ketosis, it wasn’t all that important either, as I was trying to gain. Ketosis is just the lack of carbs. You can get into ketosis just fasting.
What ratio for protein and fats do you shoot for on keto
 
What ratio for protein and fats do you shoot for on keto
I don’t typically do the %s, I’ll go like 1.3-1.6g/lb body weight in protein, then fill in fat. So, I’m cutting at 2250 right now(not doing keto currently), but, it would look like 300 protein, 100 fat.
 
The body is a thermostat. Everyone has a set point where their body wants to be as far as weight goes. It is something most of us have probably heard, since we're into physique and lifting. The majority of people have never heard this and have no idea what this means though.

This set point is one of the big drivers of our appetites (when we are properly using our bodies, more on that later). It is also independent of your mind and anything else. No matter how bad you want to gain/lose weight in your head, your body doesn't care. The body has this set point where it says, I want to weight 215 lbs and if my weight goes above or below that by more than a couple pounds, I am going to mess with hunger to ensure the owner of this body eats less or more accordingly. That is why as you lose weight during a cut, it gets harder and harder as you lose more and more weight. You appetite gets stronger and stronger. That is also why during a bulk, once you've gained 20 pounds in the last few months or so, many people start finding it harder to continue eating at the surplus level (and particularly to continue to increase their surplus) they need to continue gaining weight.

This is also why SO MANY of the billions of obese people on this planet struggle desperately to try to lose even 10-20 lbs. They might have 100 pounds of fat around their abdomen and 40 more on their ass cheeks, but once they lose 10 of those pounds, they start feeling hungrier and adhering to their diet becomes nearly impossible.

The body isn't saying that this is the healthiest weight for them to be at. It isn't saying they shouldn't lose weight, but when the body loses weight, it gets scared. Scared that it is going to starve to death. Our evolution has not caught up to the overabundance of food that the majority of the developed world has nowadays. However, it is very possible for us to change this set point and allow ourselves to gain/lose weight in a sustainable way. All you need to do is buy my book for 5 easy payments of $25.99...

So what is the mechanism behind this thermostat?

Well, we actually know a fair amount about how this works. There have been a few studies done on the matter, so I will link them here then summarize where we are at today:
1. How the skeleton reacts to changes in body weight
2. What is Leptin?
3. Leptin and the regulation of body weight in mammals
4. Body weight homeostat that regulates fat mass independently of leptin in rats and mice
- There is a TON of other studies on leptin regulating body weight, mutations that alter leptin production to cause obesity, and much more.

Based off some of those studies, there is evidence of bone sensing body weight on multiple levels:

1. Each individual bone senses the load against it and adjusts its density accordingly. The principle behind this is known as Wolff's Law and "the Mechanostat." The more time under tension as well as the amount of tension a bone is put under, the greater the bone mass in that area. For example, the femur is a very long bone that experiences a lot of sheer force from walking, running, biking, getting up and down from sitting/laying positions, and even many sex positions !(hey guys I'm trying to make this a fun lesson here!). The arms however, are loaded much less. Under normal natural circumstances, very few positions really stress the arms, mainly just carrying things and going prone perhaps during hunting or other activities (cough SEX cough).

The key here is that it is both time under tension as well as load. So an obese person who sits all day might have really poor bone density, whereas an obese person working at a job where they stand most of the day would have much higher bone density. Similarly, military guys doing ruck marches are going to have super dense leg bones compared to someone who just walks around normally. The more time you spend on your feet, the higher the bone density will be in your lower extremities. Weightlifting also increases bone density. You may have seen videos of powerlifters benching where their arm bones are literally bowing outward as they lift incredible weights. You bet their bones sense this and will automagically increase bone density the more and heavier they lift. Thankfully bones are quit forgiving, nature and evolution has given us this amazing substance called bone which is both quit flexible and also extremely sturdy :)

2. There is a set point in bone too as far as the strain they aim to experience. This set point is "remarkably similar across different species and activities measuring approximately 2–3000 με (2–3 × 10−3)" (1). As mechanical loading increases, bones formation will occur to make the bone stiffer, thus reducing strain on the bone and making it so future loads of the same weight don't overload the bone and instead cause the target set point strain.

So points 1 and 2 above demonstrate that our bones sense our body weight and respond accordingly by increasing or decreasing bone mass in areas under mechanical load. This lays the baseline for the information that is coming next, which is why we're all reading this (or at least hopefully you're reading... don't forget to buy my book!)

3. Now, getting to the hunger and weight side of things. Leptin is a hormone released by adipocytes (fat cells) and plays a very important role in our body's ability to maintain homeostatis (2). Leptin plays many roles in the body, but we are just going to focus on one: leptin tells the body it is satiated. This is the opposite of ghrelin, which tells the body it is hungry.
- A shortlist of things that increase leptin (making you less hungry): eating; overfeeding; glucose/sugar; amino acids (protein); insulin; glucocorticoids; estrogens.

4. The key finding to this whole body weight set point principal is that mechanical loading of bone ALSO effects leptin levels. That is what is demonstrated in study 4. This study is fascinating and I encourage that you read it. However, I can summarize the results here: our bones sense how much we weigh and not only manage bone mass accordingly, but also regulate leptin levels. Thus, when the bones sense that he body has recently quickly lost weight, it will increase hunger in an attempt to gain it back. When the body senses it has quickly gained weight, it will decrease hunger in an attempt to lose it. The body doesn't want to gain more weight and the body also doesn't want to lose more weight. It wants to maintain homeostasis.

Now, this is a critical finding and paves the way for a bunch more incredible information:

The body is a thermostat. These studies have proven it. The body says, I have weight 200 lbs for the last 3 years and I want to continue to weigh 200 lbs. HOWEVER, we can change this. The thermostat setting can be moved up or down, but it must be done with that. Many of us have experienced the difficult I mentioned earlier. The body will do ALMOST ANYTHING to maintain homeostasis. When you are deep in a cut, getting down into that sub 10% body fat range, your body starts to FUCK YOU in an effort not to lose any more weight. It ramps up ghrelin production and reduces leptin to make your hunger go through the roof, it starts to subconsciously reduce your NEAT (non-exercise activated thermogenesis, stuff like fidgeting, wanting to get up and walk around) and make you more sedentary to preserve energy, it starts to fuck your hormones up, reducing androgens, thyroid hormones, all sorts of things. It will do anything to get back to where that set point is. Likewise, if someone gains a lot of weight, the body will often do what it can to burn calories: increasing NEAT; changing hormones accordingly; and reducing appetite.

The thermostat isn't like the one on the wall where it is EXACT. There is a tolerance in either direction of some number of pounds (or kilograms, if that's your thing). So your body wants to weight 215. Well you might take a big shit and that puts you down to 212. Your body doesn't freak out and tell you to eat more; the body is fine with that little fluctuation. Nobody knows exactly what the tolerance level is in either direction and it also could (and probably does) vary based off individual. Some people might be more sensitive to weight loss than others. Others might be more sensitive to weight gain. Some might be really sensitive to both.

Now, the key to changing that set point is to change it SLOWLY, SUSTAINABLY, and SMARTLY.
- SLOWLY: as I said, the body has a tolerance for weight loss/gain in either direction. By changing your weight more slowly, your body is able to adjust to the change in weight. If you gain 0.5 or 1 pound per week for, or lose 0.5-1 pound per week, usually the body can deal with that kind of thing--at least for a while. 3 months down the line when you're 15 pounds heavier or lighter, the body might say, hold up, this is getting to be a little too much. This is where diet breaks can be helpful. Go up or down in calories to your new maintenance level and let your body adjust to this new point you're at. Most people have a higher tolerance for weight gain than for weight loss, especially guys like us with already low body fat levels.
- SUSTAINABLY: making sustainable diet choices is critical when you're trying to change your set point. This goes hand in hand with doing things slowly. Not only is there the actual physical aspect to weight gain/loss that I have discussed all this time, but there is a-whole-nother world to weight loss that is the psychological side. So many people struggle to cut out sugar, or stop drinking soda, or whatever. Forming new habits is critical AND can take a really long fucking time! For someone who is used to eating sugars for the last 10 years, for them to cut that out is going to be really hard, not only is sugar addictive, but you are changing your habits too. Making sustainable changes in a methodical manner is critical to success.
- SMARTLY: There are things we can do to beat the body. The body is a genius, but the body is also limited in that it can't think. It just does this stuff automaticaly. The rest of this post is about the tricks and shortcomings of this whole process.

So skeletal loading alters hunger. Well, one of the huge shortcomings in that is due to our evolution and modern society. Humans were never meant to sit in a chair all day. We were meant to be standing, squatting, walking, running, carrying things around--basically mostly doing anything but sitting/laying down. Now, a vast number of people work desk jobs and a concerningly large number of people don't do any physical activity at all, they just watch pathetically bad TV shows and rot their brain with social media and the news. Well, when we sit, that means our skeleton is not loaded!! This means that the whole feedback loop of the bones sensing our weight, changing bone density and increasing/decreasing leptin accordingly STOPS HAPPENING!!! So for someone who is working a desk job, they might be gaining a ton of weight, but their appetite is solely driven by blood glucose levels and sugar addiction.

For body builders, this means a few things can be done to help "trick" the body into making our cuts easier. This hypothetical/theoretical, but it makes sense and I've seen these points backed up by anecdotes:
1. Sit more. That feedback loop that breaks when sitting goes both directions? So the office worker who is getting morbidly obese because their leptin signaling is broken (and they are likely resistant to leptin, just like insulin) could go the other direction too. As we start to lose weight, if our skeleton senses that weight loss because we are standing or walking all day, it will lower leptin, causing us to be hungrier. Most successful body builders I know follow a cutting schedule like: lift X times per week, do their allotted cardio, then just chill. I've had some friends tell me that they find cutting easier when they bike more instead of run, which makes some sense as you're loading your legs via the bike resistance as well as sitting on the seat.
2. Increase gravity. You can control gravity right? By increasing gravity, you become heavier, so your body will...just kidding. HOWEVER, what you can do is try wearing a weighted vest! By wearing a weighted vest--it doesn't have to be much, just like 5-10 pounds, you are tricking your skeleton into thinking you weigh more than you do--that you aren't losing weight like you are on a cut. Thus, that feedback loop is hacked and your cut can become that much easier. I have also seen this backed up by a couple guys, one wore a 7 lb vest and the other wore a 10 lb vest, both of them said wearing vest seemed to cause that cut to be the easiest one they've ever done.
- Now, the downside is once you take that vest off, the feedback loop is activated again. So perhaps this is really only a good tactic to use for something like a photo shoot, competition, or porno video shoot where you wanna be lean as fuck on camera (lol). Otherwise, you'll be stuck wearing a weighted vest for the rest of your life lol.
3. Bulk then cut. I always see people ask, should I bulk or cut? Unless you're at or above 20% body fat, IMO you should always bulk first. By gaining 10-20 lbs of mostly muscle in that 12-16 week bulk cycle (or whatever length it is), the weight gained will put you above your body's set point. So you're setting yourself up to be able to cut successfully afterwards. Once you've gained that muscle, your BMR goes up, you can start standing/walking more and your appetite will go down, making it easier to cut. You can then lose weight (again, slowly and sustainable) and get yourself back down towards where your set point is, but only with more muscle and less fat!

That's all I've got. Hope you found it interesting!

That is incredibly interesting, thanks for posting this info.
 
I weighed over 300lbs after being sedentary for 6 months after spine surgery. Went down to 193 in 18 months, was looking to just strip all the fat off and start all over again. Prior to surgery, I trained for over 25 years, 250lbs being kind of where I floated. When I tell you I had the worst ghrelin issues at 193, I can’t even begin to tell you the volume of food I was able to eat, and never satiated, that lasted all the way up to about 240, then slowed dramatically. I was eating up to 7000 cals/day on keto. It was just absurd.
I lost 65lbs on keto in less than 90days. I love keto due to i lose all bloat and water when in ketosis. I just had a hard time gaining muscle on keto.
 
Easy, my thermostat is set to how much money I make. It wants to stay at 192, on gear, like 500mg week test its 212. All I can change is the quality of my meals. One time after going "off grid" for 2 months, lots of pine trees and miles walking for provisions I got down to 170, and was tanned, with abs, however looked sickly. I'm 5' 11".
I'm telling you a steady 212 almost all the time, only thing changing is BF%. I'm on Trt, occasionally blast, am diabetic, and just started playing with growth hormone. I'm amazed at the change. Now if I could put some Tren in the mix, or at least some Mast, i bet i would like the results. Bet i would still weigh 212 tho :)
 
The body is a thermostat. Everyone has a set point where their body wants to be as far as weight goes. It is something most of us have probably heard, since we're into physique and lifting. The majority of people have never heard this and have no idea what this means though.

This set point is one of the big drivers of our appetites (when we are properly using our bodies, more on that later). It is also independent of your mind and anything else. No matter how bad you want to gain/lose weight in your head, your body doesn't care. The body has this set point where it says, I want to weight 215 lbs and if my weight goes above or below that by more than a couple pounds, I am going to mess with hunger to ensure the owner of this body eats less or more accordingly. That is why as you lose weight during a cut, it gets harder and harder as you lose more and more weight. You appetite gets stronger and stronger. That is also why during a bulk, once you've gained 20 pounds in the last few months or so, many people start finding it harder to continue eating at the surplus level (and particularly to continue to increase their surplus) they need to continue gaining weight.

This is also why SO MANY of the billions of obese people on this planet struggle desperately to try to lose even 10-20 lbs. They might have 100 pounds of fat around their abdomen and 40 more on their ass cheeks, but once they lose 10 of those pounds, they start feeling hungrier and adhering to their diet becomes nearly impossible.

The body isn't saying that this is the healthiest weight for them to be at. It isn't saying they shouldn't lose weight, but when the body loses weight, it gets scared. Scared that it is going to starve to death. Our evolution has not caught up to the overabundance of food that the majority of the developed world has nowadays. However, it is very possible for us to change this set point and allow ourselves to gain/lose weight in a sustainable way. All you need to do is buy my book for 5 easy payments of $25.99...

So what is the mechanism behind this thermostat?

Well, we actually know a fair amount about how this works. There have been a few studies done on the matter, so I will link them here then summarize where we are at today:
1. How the skeleton reacts to changes in body weight
2. What is Leptin?
3. Leptin and the regulation of body weight in mammals
4. Body weight homeostat that regulates fat mass independently of leptin in rats and mice
- There is a TON of other studies on leptin regulating body weight, mutations that alter leptin production to cause obesity, and much more.

Based off some of those studies, there is evidence of bone sensing body weight on multiple levels:

1. Each individual bone senses the load against it and adjusts its density accordingly. The principle behind this is known as Wolff's Law and "the Mechanostat." The more time under tension as well as the amount of tension a bone is put under, the greater the bone mass in that area. For example, the femur is a very long bone that experiences a lot of sheer force from walking, running, biking, getting up and down from sitting/laying positions, and even many sex positions !(hey guys I'm trying to make this a fun lesson here!). The arms however, are loaded much less. Under normal natural circumstances, very few positions really stress the arms, mainly just carrying things and going prone perhaps during hunting or other activities (cough SEX cough).

The key here is that it is both time under tension as well as load. So an obese person who sits all day might have really poor bone density, whereas an obese person working at a job where they stand most of the day would have much higher bone density. Similarly, military guys doing ruck marches are going to have super dense leg bones compared to someone who just walks around normally. The more time you spend on your feet, the higher the bone density will be in your lower extremities. Weightlifting also increases bone density. You may have seen videos of powerlifters benching where their arm bones are literally bowing outward as they lift incredible weights. You bet their bones sense this and will automagically increase bone density the more and heavier they lift. Thankfully bones are quit forgiving, nature and evolution has given us this amazing substance called bone which is both quit flexible and also extremely sturdy :)

2. There is a set point in bone too as far as the strain they aim to experience. This set point is "remarkably similar across different species and activities measuring approximately 2–3000 με (2–3 × 10−3)" (1). As mechanical loading increases, bones formation will occur to make the bone stiffer, thus reducing strain on the bone and making it so future loads of the same weight don't overload the bone and instead cause the target set point strain.

So points 1 and 2 above demonstrate that our bones sense our body weight and respond accordingly by increasing or decreasing bone mass in areas under mechanical load. This lays the baseline for the information that is coming next, which is why we're all reading this (or at least hopefully you're reading... don't forget to buy my book!)

3. Now, getting to the hunger and weight side of things. Leptin is a hormone released by adipocytes (fat cells) and plays a very important role in our body's ability to maintain homeostatis (2). Leptin plays many roles in the body, but we are just going to focus on one: leptin tells the body it is satiated. This is the opposite of ghrelin, which tells the body it is hungry.
- A shortlist of things that increase leptin (making you less hungry): eating; overfeeding; glucose/sugar; amino acids (protein); insulin; glucocorticoids; estrogens.

4. The key finding to this whole body weight set point principal is that mechanical loading of bone ALSO effects leptin levels. That is what is demonstrated in study 4. This study is fascinating and I encourage that you read it. However, I can summarize the results here: our bones sense how much we weigh and not only manage bone mass accordingly, but also regulate leptin levels. Thus, when the bones sense that he body has recently quickly lost weight, it will increase hunger in an attempt to gain it back. When the body senses it has quickly gained weight, it will decrease hunger in an attempt to lose it. The body doesn't want to gain more weight and the body also doesn't want to lose more weight. It wants to maintain homeostasis.

Now, this is a critical finding and paves the way for a bunch more incredible information:

The body is a thermostat. These studies have proven it. The body says, I have weight 200 lbs for the last 3 years and I want to continue to weigh 200 lbs. HOWEVER, we can change this. The thermostat setting can be moved up or down, but it must be done with that. Many of us have experienced the difficult I mentioned earlier. The body will do ALMOST ANYTHING to maintain homeostasis. When you are deep in a cut, getting down into that sub 10% body fat range, your body starts to FUCK YOU in an effort not to lose any more weight. It ramps up ghrelin production and reduces leptin to make your hunger go through the roof, it starts to subconsciously reduce your NEAT (non-exercise activated thermogenesis, stuff like fidgeting, wanting to get up and walk around) and make you more sedentary to preserve energy, it starts to fuck your hormones up, reducing androgens, thyroid hormones, all sorts of things. It will do anything to get back to where that set point is. Likewise, if someone gains a lot of weight, the body will often do what it can to burn calories: increasing NEAT; changing hormones accordingly; and reducing appetite.

The thermostat isn't like the one on the wall where it is EXACT. There is a tolerance in either direction of some number of pounds (or kilograms, if that's your thing). So your body wants to weight 215. Well you might take a big shit and that puts you down to 212. Your body doesn't freak out and tell you to eat more; the body is fine with that little fluctuation. Nobody knows exactly what the tolerance level is in either direction and it also could (and probably does) vary based off individual. Some people might be more sensitive to weight loss than others. Others might be more sensitive to weight gain. Some might be really sensitive to both.

Now, the key to changing that set point is to change it SLOWLY, SUSTAINABLY, and SMARTLY.
- SLOWLY: as I said, the body has a tolerance for weight loss/gain in either direction. By changing your weight more slowly, your body is able to adjust to the change in weight. If you gain 0.5 or 1 pound per week for, or lose 0.5-1 pound per week, usually the body can deal with that kind of thing--at least for a while. 3 months down the line when you're 15 pounds heavier or lighter, the body might say, hold up, this is getting to be a little too much. This is where diet breaks can be helpful. Go up or down in calories to your new maintenance level and let your body adjust to this new point you're at. Most people have a higher tolerance for weight gain than for weight loss, especially guys like us with already low body fat levels.
- SUSTAINABLY: making sustainable diet choices is critical when you're trying to change your set point. This goes hand in hand with doing things slowly. Not only is there the actual physical aspect to weight gain/loss that I have discussed all this time, but there is a-whole-nother world to weight loss that is the psychological side. So many people struggle to cut out sugar, or stop drinking soda, or whatever. Forming new habits is critical AND can take a really long fucking time! For someone who is used to eating sugars for the last 10 years, for them to cut that out is going to be really hard, not only is sugar addictive, but you are changing your habits too. Making sustainable changes in a methodical manner is critical to success.
- SMARTLY: There are things we can do to beat the body. The body is a genius, but the body is also limited in that it can't think. It just does this stuff automaticaly. The rest of this post is about the tricks and shortcomings of this whole process.

So skeletal loading alters hunger. Well, one of the huge shortcomings in that is due to our evolution and modern society. Humans were never meant to sit in a chair all day. We were meant to be standing, squatting, walking, running, carrying things around--basically mostly doing anything but sitting/laying down. Now, a vast number of people work desk jobs and a concerningly large number of people don't do any physical activity at all, they just watch pathetically bad TV shows and rot their brain with social media and the news. Well, when we sit, that means our skeleton is not loaded!! This means that the whole feedback loop of the bones sensing our weight, changing bone density and increasing/decreasing leptin accordingly STOPS HAPPENING!!! So for someone who is working a desk job, they might be gaining a ton of weight, but their appetite is solely driven by blood glucose levels and sugar addiction.

For body builders, this means a few things can be done to help "trick" the body into making our cuts easier. This hypothetical/theoretical, but it makes sense and I've seen these points backed up by anecdotes:
1. Sit more. That feedback loop that breaks when sitting goes both directions? So the office worker who is getting morbidly obese because their leptin signaling is broken (and they are likely resistant to leptin, just like insulin) could go the other direction too. As we start to lose weight, if our skeleton senses that weight loss because we are standing or walking all day, it will lower leptin, causing us to be hungrier. Most successful body builders I know follow a cutting schedule like: lift X times per week, do their allotted cardio, then just chill. I've had some friends tell me that they find cutting easier when they bike more instead of run, which makes some sense as you're loading your legs via the bike resistance as well as sitting on the seat.
2. Increase gravity. You can control gravity right? By increasing gravity, you become heavier, so your body will...just kidding. HOWEVER, what you can do is try wearing a weighted vest! By wearing a weighted vest--it doesn't have to be much, just like 5-10 pounds, you are tricking your skeleton into thinking you weigh more than you do--that you aren't losing weight like you are on a cut. Thus, that feedback loop is hacked and your cut can become that much easier. I have also seen this backed up by a couple guys, one wore a 7 lb vest and the other wore a 10 lb vest, both of them said wearing vest seemed to cause that cut to be the easiest one they've ever done.
- Now, the downside is once you take that vest off, the feedback loop is activated again. So perhaps this is really only a good tactic to use for something like a photo shoot, competition, or porno video shoot where you wanna be lean as fuck on camera (lol). Otherwise, you'll be stuck wearing a weighted vest for the rest of your life lol.
3. Bulk then cut. I always see people ask, should I bulk or cut? Unless you're at or above 20% body fat, IMO you should always bulk first. By gaining 10-20 lbs of mostly muscle in that 12-16 week bulk cycle (or whatever length it is), the weight gained will put you above your body's set point. So you're setting yourself up to be able to cut successfully afterwards. Once you've gained that muscle, your BMR goes up, you can start standing/walking more and your appetite will go down, making it easier to cut. You can then lose weight (again, slowly and sustainable) and get yourself back down towards where your set point is, but only with more muscle and less fat!

That's all I've got. Hope you found it interesting!
Paul Borreson mentioned set point theory and that it was based on each individuals support systems IE muscle tissue is living tissue thus it requires new blood supply veins capillaries etc as well as innervation (nerves.) Thus how much muscle you can carry depends on your bodies ability to supply it with blood oxygen and nervous tissue.

So in order to gain muscle above this point you have to either gain much more weight (fat muscle doesnt matter) and hold it for some time 6 months is good OR you can diet down before you bulk since fat is living tissue if younlos fat younfree up the support systems that were supportjng it.

Sorry numb fingers my phone islame at autocorrecting.
 
Paul Borreson mentioned set point theory and that it was based on each individuals support systems IE muscle tissue is living tissue thus it requires new blood supply veins capillaries etc as well as innervation (nerves.) Thus how much muscle you can carry depends on your bodies ability to supply it with blood oxygen and nervous tissue.

So in order to gain muscle above this point you have to either gain much more weight (fat muscle doesnt matter) and hold it for some time 6 months is good OR you can diet down before you bulk since fat is living tissue if younlos fat younfree up the support systems that were supportjng it.

Sorry numb fingers my phone islame at autocorrecting.
Yeah that is very true, in order to support muscle tissue you need a good amount of circulatory tissue as well.

There is some pretty good research into this. Stronger by Science has discussed it a couple of times: Avoiding Cardio Could Be Holding You Back • Stronger by Science

They also talked about it on their podcast once, but I'm struggling to find the episode. It was a year or two ago, not one of the recent ones. If I remember correctly, they mention that if you're doing your cardio then you are probably good unless you are just a total mass monster and you're fucking huge. The body can grow new blood vessels, which is known as angiogenesis. In fact, this happens regularly in someone who is lifting and doing cardio. This study goes into some of the factors that cause this: https://journals.physiology.org/doi/pdf/10.1152/japplphysiol.00035.2004

- Hypoxia
- Shear stress
- Mechanical Stretch
- Different growth factors

So, for someone who isn't doing cardio and is just slamming tren and test for months, doing nothing but lifting--they will likely hit a wall with performance where they simply can't lift because of how taxing it is on their circulatory system. (Fun fact: angiogensis also can reduce blood pressure, as there is now more volume for the blood to exist within--this has been demonstrated in animal models.)

The only thing I am not sure about is when you say you have to bulk up and hold it for 6 months. I'm not sure why the 6 month mark matters, do you care to elaborate? Also, I am not sure why growing capillaries in say, stomach fat (if one were to gain weight in the form of fat), would help you at all when you grow muscle in your arms or back or legs--perhaps I am misreading your post though.

In the end, your body will not grow muscle fibers that it isn't capable of delivering oxygen to. So while it could be a limiting factor for growth (i.e., cause someone to plateau), I don't see it being an issue that someone would run into all of the sudden. And even then, as long as they are taking care of themselves and doing their cardio, they should be good to go (unless they're a ridiculous mass monster).
 
Yeah that is very true, in order to support muscle tissue you need a good amount of circulatory tissue as well.

There is some pretty good research into this. Stronger by Science has discussed it a couple of times: Avoiding Cardio Could Be Holding You Back • Stronger by Science

They also talked about it on their podcast once, but I'm struggling to find the episode. It was a year or two ago, not one of the recent ones. If I remember correctly, they mention that if you're doing your cardio then you are probably good unless you are just a total mass monster and you're fucking huge. The body can grow new blood vessels, which is known as angiogenesis. In fact, this happens regularly in someone who is lifting and doing cardio. This study goes into some of the factors that cause this: https://journals.physiology.org/doi/pdf/10.1152/japplphysiol.00035.2004

- Hypoxia
- Shear stress
- Mechanical Stretch
- Different growth factors

So, for someone who isn't doing cardio and is just slamming tren and test for months, doing nothing but lifting--they will likely hit a wall with performance where they simply can't lift because of how taxing it is on their circulatory system. (Fun fact: angiogensis also can reduce blood pressure, as there is now more volume for the blood to exist within--this has been demonstrated in animal models.)

The only thing I am not sure about is when you say you have to bulk up and hold it for 6 months. I'm not sure why the 6 month mark matters, do you care to elaborate? Also, I am not sure why growing capillaries in say, stomach fat (if one were to gain weight in the form of fat), would help you at all when you grow muscle in your arms or back or legs--perhaps I am misreading your post though.

In the end, your body will not grow muscle fibers that it isn't capable of delivering oxygen to. So while it could be a limiting factor for growth (i.e., cause someone to plateau), I don't see it being an issue that someone would run into all of the sudden. And even then, as long as they are taking care of themselves and doing their cardio, they should be good to go (unless they're a ridiculous mass monster).
Theory goes if your genetic set point weight is say 200lbs and you temporarily increase lets say you run a cycle and gain 20lbs in a month or two, when you go off you will revert back to 200lbs.

I hear this constantly over the years that steroids dont build muscle its fake so and so lost everything over time despite proper pct etc. And you have guys like palumbo theorizing it takes six months for satellite cells to mature when running growth etc.

If you want to increase keepable muscle mass you have to either drop bodyfat and then bulk (note i said increase keepable muscle mass NOT bodyweight) OR you need to put weight on regardless how much fat comes with it just get to a bodyweight and then hold that higher weight for some time (i think 6 months is accurate) and you will effectively set a new set point weight for your body IE instead of 200lbs now its 220lbs or 230lbs.

From there maintenance cals are all you need you will not revert back to 200lbs without considerable effort.

It makes sense and its worked for me.
 
Theory goes if your genetic set point weight is say 200lbs and you temporarily increase lets say you run a cycle and gain 20lbs in a month or two, when you go off you will revert back to 200lbs.

I hear this constantly over the years that steroids dont build muscle its fake so and so lost everything over time despite proper pct etc. And you have guys like palumbo theorizing it takes six months for satellite cells to mature when running growth etc.

If you want to increase keepable muscle mass you have to either drop bodyfat and then bulk (note i said increase keepable muscle mass NOT bodyweight) OR you need to put weight on regardless how much fat comes with it just get to a bodyweight and then hold that higher weight for some time (i think 6 months is accurate) and you will effectively set a new set point weight for your body IE instead of 200lbs now its 220lbs or 230lbs.

From there maintenance cals are all you need you will not revert back to 200lbs without considerable effort.

It makes sense and its worked for me.
This all makes sense now. Thank you for clarifying.

Yes I definitely agree, you can change your set point given enough time. I do wholly disagree that someone would lose all their gains from a cycle if they go off due to the set point. If those 20 lbs they gained were over their genetic potential, then that must be taken into consideration. If they are someone who struggles to live the lifestyle, and instead when they go off cycle they kinda pig out and lose motivation to lift, that's obviously a massive factor. I think for someone who is dedicated and gained 2 lbs in 12 weeks, they would be fine. They'll obviously lose a few pounds of water, then some muscle will go away over time as they are back at maintenance. For example, if they gained 20 lbs, they might lose 10-15, but set point theory allows for movement in either direction because weight fluctuates daily already, and also I am sure the mechanostat is simply not that accurate to be able to pick up and complain about someone being 5 pounds over their previous set point. It's not like one would need to get back to exactly 200 lbs before the body will be comfortable again--it may be that once they reach 205 or even 207 they are feeling good. This will vary by individual though. Also, throughout that bulk as they gain weight, their set point will likely tick upwards a little bit simply to accommodate their weight gain.

In general, the faster you gain OR lose weight, the more unsustainable it is, probably at least partially due to this set point theory. That doesn't mean it's impossible to gain or lose weight fast and keep it off, it just means that discipline will be much more important. This is why I think the keto diet for weight loss in obese or overweight people is fucking stupid as hell. They aren't building good habits, they aren't changing their lifestyle, they're eating an ultra-restrictive diet and potentially dropping weight quite fast, then when they go off they just start buying hostess cupcakes and fucking captain crunch and chick fil a garbage food again, and so they gain it all back! Partially due to set point, but also partially due to bad habits and food addictions.

I find the idea of a weighted vest to be very interesting for weight loss, particularly for contest prep since nobody is going to wear one year-round. It's an interesting "biohack" idea that basically could trick the body into thinking it's heavier than it actually is, thus tricking the body into thinking it is still at its set point even as you drop weight. For bulking you'd obviously need an anti-gravity chamber, like the opposite of what they used in the original Dragon Ball Z, but that is a little more complex as you'd have to worry about muscular atrophy from long term deloading the skeleton, similar to an astronaut. I wonder, have they ever played with giving astronauts steroids to prevent muscle wasting? Even just like TRT plus low dose anavar could do the trick. I've seen a couple anavar case studies where they gave the subject 20 mgs for 6 months (I think the longest I saw was 6 months, don't want to dig them up right now), but I digress.

I find my set point to be pretty happy within about 10 pounds, personally. If I gain 10 pounds in a couple months, I am fine. Same with losing 10 pounds, I don't find myself struggling with hunger or anything really until I start to lose more than 10 pounds or so. Currently cutting and I've lost about 9.5 pounds since the start 8 weeks ago. Doing totally fine so far. I wonder if there is some psychological connection between seeing the scale drop and feeling hungry? Weighing yourself obviously is a very new phenomenon as is widespread access to mirrors. It would be interesting if hypnosis or cognitive behavioral therapy and meditation could somehow help overcome the set point process in the body.

As far as the idea that it takes 6 months for a satellite cell to mature, I don't fully buy into that idea at this time. Can you send me an article or something where he talks about this? I am struggling to find anything that supports the 6 month window at all.

Most people only take like 2 months at maintenance calories between a bulk and a cut, and it seems to be enough--especially if there are anabolics at play. I don't know anyone who bulks up then waits 6 months to cut back down, do you? It would be so restricting, in 18 months you'd only be able to do 1 3 month bulk and 1 3 month cut before starting over again.
 
This all makes sense now. Thank you for clarifying.

Yes I definitely agree, you can change your set point given enough time. I do wholly disagree that someone would lose all their gains from a cycle if they go off due to the set point. If those 20 lbs they gained were over their genetic potential, then that must be taken into consideration. If they are someone who struggles to live the lifestyle, and instead when they go off cycle they kinda pig out and lose motivation to lift, that's obviously a massive factor. I think for someone who is dedicated and gained 2 lbs in 12 weeks, they would be fine. They'll obviously lose a few pounds of water, then some muscle will go away over time as they are back at maintenance. For example, if they gained 20 lbs, they might lose 10-15, but set point theory allows for movement in either direction because weight fluctuates daily already, and also I am sure the mechanostat is simply not that accurate to be able to pick up and complain about someone being 5 pounds over their previous set point. It's not like one would need to get back to exactly 200 lbs before the body will be comfortable again--it may be that once they reach 205 or even 207 they are feeling good. This will vary by individual though. Also, throughout that bulk as they gain weight, their set point will likely tick upwards a little bit simply to accommodate their weight gain.

In general, the faster you gain OR lose weight, the more unsustainable it is, probably at least partially due to this set point theory. That doesn't mean it's impossible to gain or lose weight fast and keep it off, it just means that discipline will be much more important. This is why I think the keto diet for weight loss in obese or overweight people is fucking stupid as hell. They aren't building good habits, they aren't changing their lifestyle, they're eating an ultra-restrictive diet and potentially dropping weight quite fast, then when they go off they just start buying hostess cupcakes and fucking captain crunch and chick fil a garbage food again, and so they gain it all back! Partially due to set point, but also partially due to bad habits and food addictions.

I find the idea of a weighted vest to be very interesting for weight loss, particularly for contest prep since nobody is going to wear one year-round. It's an interesting "biohack" idea that basically could trick the body into thinking it's heavier than it actually is, thus tricking the body into thinking it is still at its set point even as you drop weight. For bulking you'd obviously need an anti-gravity chamber, like the opposite of what they used in the original Dragon Ball Z, but that is a little more complex as you'd have to worry about muscular atrophy from long term deloading the skeleton, similar to an astronaut. I wonder, have they ever played with giving astronauts steroids to prevent muscle wasting? Even just like TRT plus low dose anavar could do the trick. I've seen a couple anavar case studies where they gave the subject 20 mgs for 6 months (I think the longest I saw was 6 months, don't want to dig them up right now), but I digress.

I find my set point to be pretty happy within about 10 pounds, personally. If I gain 10 pounds in a couple months, I am fine. Same with losing 10 pounds, I don't find myself struggling with hunger or anything really until I start to lose more than 10 pounds or so. Currently cutting and I've lost about 9.5 pounds since the start 8 weeks ago. Doing totally fine so far. I wonder if there is some psychological connection between seeing the scale drop and feeling hungry? Weighing yourself obviously is a very new phenomenon as is widespread access to mirrors. It would be interesting if hypnosis or cognitive behavioral therapy and meditation could somehow help overcome the set point process in the body.

As far as the idea that it takes 6 months for a satellite cell to mature, I don't fully buy into that idea at this time. Can you send me an article or something where he talks about this? I am struggling to find anything that supports the 6 month window at all.

Most people only take like 2 months at maintenance calories between a bulk and a cut, and it seems to be enough--especially if there are anabolics at play. I don't know anyone who bulks up then waits 6 months to cut back down, do you? It would be so restricting, in 18 months you'd only be able to do 1 3 month bulk and 1 3 month cut before starting over again.
I see your point and logic and while it would seem to be true anecdotal data i have seen over a long period of time says otherwise.

Most AAS users if they do not stay on for quite some time will slowly but surely revert back to original pre AAS stats regardless of diet or how hard they train. The harder they work at keeping what they gain the slower the regression.

I have my own theory regarding how muscles actually get bigger (meaning permanently) and its a bit off the mainstream but it goes like this- muscle tissue itself is not capable of actual permanent growth. Resistance training causes muscle.fibers to expand with water and nutrients and in the short term IE less than 6 months any gains in strength actually come from CNS improvements. When you break your muscles down in the gym this activates satellite cells which in turn create new muscle.fibers and THAT is actual muscle growth. Gains you will never lose. But, to reiterate, I do not believe it is actual muscle fiber growth but a process of muscle fiber proliferation through maturation of satellite cells into new muscle fibers. Thus anything you gain in a short period of time is cosmetic. It takes time to become permanent and keepable. This explains why some guys can build way more muscle than others, they are born with a larger pool of satellite cells to begin with. Also explains why estrogen is vital to getting bigger and bigger estrogen being myogenic is probably a key factor in satellite cell recruitment/activation.

Im not a biologist or anything, I cannot give factual data yet, just my observation after 25 years of bodybuilding.
 

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