The Nad+ Burn

[songsofpyramids]

Anyone have updated info on success with diluting Glutathione and/or NAD+ with Sodium Bicarbonate?

I found success using bac water and bac sodium chloride. Reconstituted 1500mg glutathione in 2ml bac water 1ml sodium chloride, and (I think) the same for nad+ 500mg. I did both im and found this eliminated all issues for me.

 

[bigMoJo]

I found success using bac water and bac sodium chloride. Reconstituted 1500mg glutathione in 2ml bac water 1ml sodium chloride, and (I think) the same for nad+ 500mg. I did both im and found this eliminated all issues for me.

Wow, Sodium Chloride is neutral... on paper, it shouldn't reduce pH, but keep it the same, right? Just curious, how did you determine it's efficacy when implementing?

 

[songsofpyramids]

Wow, Sodium Chloride is neutral... on paper, it shouldn't reduce pH, but keep it the same, right? Just curious, how did you determine it's efficacy when implementing?

Gonna be honest I don’t fully understand the science, but it is an isotonic agent which prevents aggregation, interactions with container surfaces, and enhances the “tonicity” of the solution. It doesn’t buffer the ph but rather makes the solution more isotonic (closer to the natural osmolarity of bodily fluids) reducing tissue irritation at the site of injection. Bac water, in comparison, is hypotonic, which can cause cell lysis (bursting of cells). I read it was common practice to use it in med spa type clinics to reduce pain so just copied them and found it worked for me. They still occasionally have a bite but nothing awful.

@Ghoul have you checked out bacteriostatic sodium chloride for reconstitution in your quest to prevent peptide aggregation? Might be a worthy avenue of exploration for you. I’m now considering using it in my hgh to keep it stable, especially higher iu vials.

 

[bigMoJo]

Gonna be honest I don’t fully understand the science, but it is an isotonic agent which prevents aggregation, interactions with container surfaces, and enhances the “tonicity” of the solution. It doesn’t buffer the ph but rather makes the solution more isotonic (closer to the natural osmolarity of bodily fluids) reducing tissue irritation at the site of injection. Bac water, in comparison, is hypotonic, which can cause cell lysis (bursting of cells). I read it was common practice to use it in med spa type clinics to reduce pain so just copied them and found it worked for me. They still occasionally have a bite but nothing awful.

@Ghoul have you checked out bacteriostatic sodium chloride for reconstitution in your quest to prevent peptide aggregation? Might be a worthy avenue of exploration for you. I’m now considering using it in my hgh to keep it stable, especially higher iu vials.

Appreciate the detailed info bro.

So far, I've found that, yes, these peptides have "bite." For example, Glutathione is acidic and, of course, you can feel it. Prior to filtering, I had a couple of bad PIP/lumps, one taking two weeks to heal. After filtering, the bite is less, and the injection site irritarion dissipates fairly quickly. So filtering makes a noticeable impact, and that's also beneficial for addressing aggregation. However, since I'm pinning multiple, separate peptides daily, I'm looking for a less irritating solution. This stuff adds up.

Also, from preliminary search, it seems Sodium Chloride is easier to source than Sodium Bicarbonate. Don't know about Lidocaine yet.

 

[nullandvoid]

I think FOXO4 could potentially benefit from sodium bicarb, as well. It's pretty spicy.

 

[iris]

Appreciate the detailed info bro.

So far, I've found that, yes, these peptides have "bite." For example, Glutathione is acidic and, of course, you can feel it. Prior to filtering, I had a couple of bad PIP/lumps, one taking two weeks to heal. After filtering, the bite is less, and the injection site irritarion dissipates fairly quickly. So filtering makes a noticeable impact, and that's also beneficial for addressing aggregation. However, since I'm pinning multiple, separate peptides daily, I'm looking for a less irritating solution. This stuff adds up.

Also, from preliminary search, it seems Sodium Chloride is easier to source than Sodium Bicarbonate. Don't know about Lidocaine yet.

Hey Mojo, how many peptides do you reckon need a different ph/bac and /or dilution?
There may be a couple more I am thinking about.

I was wondering whether it would be worth creating a thread about this.
All the stuff that needs different dilution methods, bac, how to, etc.
So gather all resources scattered everywhere in one place.

Would you be up to do it with me, if you think it is not such a bad idea?

 

[songsofpyramids]

Prior to filtering, I had a couple of bad PIP/lumps, one taking two weeks to heal.

Good to know that filtering improves it even further, I did not do that on my last glut and nad+ run but will be in a few months when I do my next run. Will report back.

Hey Mojo, how many peptides do you reckon need a different ph/bac and /or dilution?
There may be a couple more I am thinking about.

I was wondering whether it would be worth creating a thread about this.
All the stuff that needs different dilution methods, bac, how to, etc.
So gather all resources scattered everywhere in one place.

Would you be up to do it with me, if you think it is not such a bad idea?

This is a wonderful idea imo.

 

[bigMoJo]

Hey Mojo, how many peptides do you reckon need a different ph/bac and /or dilution?
There may be a couple more I am thinking about.

I was wondering whether it would be worth creating a thread about this.
All the stuff that needs different dilution methods, bac, how to, etc.
So gather all resources scattered everywhere in one place.

Would you be up to do it with me, if you think it is not such a bad idea?

That's a great idea!

I don't know about all the other peptides yet. I just started with what I needed help with... doesn't seem like there is a lot of info about "neutralizing" acidic compounds.

I've seen some of the "recipes" for dilution and adding alkalinity, but going to get my hands on the chemicals and test for myself. It shouldn't be difficult to test & figure out dilution rates for each peptide. But, it seems sourcing may be more difficult.

So, yeah, I'm "in." I'll touch base with you as progress developes.

 

[johnp76]

Reviving this thread. Anyone have updated info on success with diluting Glutathione and/or NAD+ with Sodium Bicarbonate?

Anyone try lidocaine in the mix/dose as well?

You can get glutathione from korea. It already has sodium bicard in there as a buffer. You just mix with bac water. No bite at all.
I have NAD+ 500mg and i add 4.2ml of bax water and .8 of sodium bacarb...that goves me 100mg per ML...i do IM injections and no bite.

 

[bigMoJo]

Really appreciate your input!

You can get glutathione from korea. It already has sodium bicard in there as a buffer. You just mix with bac water. No bite at all.

Korea? I'll have to take a look. Is it lyophilized or raw powder?

I have NAD+ 500mg and i add 4.2ml of bax water and .8 of sodium bacarb...that goves me 100mg per ML...i do IM injections and no bite.

6 to 1 ratio if my math is correct, right?

Did you test the pH on that before use or "eyeball" what worked?

Have you come across any data regarding degradation when reconstituted with sodium bicarb and bac water?

Juat curious bro, thank you!

 

[johnp76]

Really appreciate your input!


Korea? I'll have to take a look. Is it lyophilized or raw powder?


6 to 1 ratio if my math is correct, right?

Did you test the pH on that before use or "eyeball" what worked?

Have you come across any data regarding degradation when reconstituted with sodium bicarb and bac water?

Juat curious bro, thank you!

The glutathion is lyophilized. Comes at 1200mg per vial. Just need bac water. Not sure if i can post a vendor here but you can DM me if you want.

For NAd you can get testing strips on amazon. You want the ph levels about 5-7. I belive if u go over then it degrayes pretty quickly.

 

[songsofpyramids]

Not sure if i can post a vendor

You can, please share for everyone. Prost is the company I’ve seen suggested around. My stock is getting low and I been looking around.

 

[Ghoul]

Gonna be honest I don’t fully understand the science, but it is an isotonic agent which prevents aggregation, interactions with container surfaces, and enhances the “tonicity” of the solution. It doesn’t buffer the ph but rather makes the solution more isotonic (closer to the natural osmolarity of bodily fluids) reducing tissue irritation at the site of injection. Bac water, in comparison, is hypotonic, which can cause cell lysis (bursting of cells). I read it was common practice to use it in med spa type clinics to reduce pain so just copied them and found it worked for me. They still occasionally have a bite but nothing awful.

@Ghoul have you checked out bacteriostatic sodium chloride for reconstitution in your quest to prevent peptide aggregation? Might be a worthy avenue of exploration for you. I’m now considering using it in my hgh to keep it stable, especially higher iu vials.

Sodium can reduce aggregation, or speed it up, depending on the peptide.

The fact you'd be hard pressed to find any lyophilized pharma protein therapeutic that instructs using anything but BAC (or sterile water for injection) is a good clue its probably not a good idea.

PH is vitally important to prevent degradation, aggregation, and pip. Pharma peptides include excipients to modify the standard BAC PH, in the specific volume you're instructed to use, to get the correct PH in the finished product. This varies from peptide to peptide, and if UGL ever puts some effort into doing the same it'd bring it much closer to a pharma grade product. It really shouldn't be difficult. The info is all publicly available.

Anyway, regarding NAD+, what I found was that compounding pharmacies use plain old BAC to reconstitute.

However, I'm not sure what amount of BAC most UGL users are using, but compounders use 5ml per 500mg vial. Could over-concentration be the primary cause of irritation?

 

[Middus]

Appreciate the detailed info bro.

So far, I've found that, yes, these peptides have "bite." For example, Glutathione is acidic and, of course, you can feel it. Prior to filtering, I had a couple of bad PIP/lumps, one taking two weeks to heal. After filtering, the bite is less, and the injection site irritarion dissipates fairly quickly. So filtering makes a noticeable impact, and that's also beneficial for addressing aggregation. However, since I'm pinning multiple, separate peptides daily, I'm looking for a less irritating solution. This stuff adds up.

Also, from preliminary search, it seems Sodium Chloride is easier to source than Sodium Bicarbonate. Don't know about Lidocaine yet.

A lot of glutathione comes buffered these days. Especially as they realise people are injecting themselves DIY. You easily pin 800g of luthione with no pain these days

 

[Middus]

You can, please share for everyone. Prost is the company I’ve seen suggested around. My stock is getting low and I been looking around.

I also use Prost, but a lot of vendors sell Luthione. Just googling it will send you an option of several korea(mart) vendors. Some even sell on ebay

 

[bigMoJo]

Sodium can reduce aggregation, or speed it up, depending on the peptide.

This was my concern, as it seems to be the unknown for many of these "research" peptides.

Anyway, regarding NAD+, what I found was that compounding pharmacies use plain old BAC to reconstitute.

Maybe for NAD+ it's possible. I found a clinic pre-treatment instruction sheet that shows IV mix NAD+ with sodium bicarb. I'll have to go back through, find, and post the link:



Still searching for more information though.

However, I'm not sure what amount of BAC most UGL users are using, but compounders use 5ml per 500mg vial. Could over-concentration be the primary cause of irritation?

Currently, I've mixed glutathione as you have listed, 1ml BAC for every 100mg. Again, filtering with 13mm PES syring filter makes a considerable impact. But, there's still enough bite to make daily injections difficult.

I'm looking into sodium bicarbonate and/or sodium chloride—with the possible addition of lidocaine—mixed with BAC and the peptide.

 

[Middus]

This was my concern, as it seems to be the unknown for many of these "research" peptides.

Maybe for NAD+ it's possible. I found a clinic pre-treatment instruction sheet that shows IV mix NAD+ with sodium bicarb. I'll have to go back through, find, and post the link:

View attachment 308260

Still searching for more information though.


Currently, I've mixed glutathione as you have listed, 1ml BAC for every 100mg. Again, filtering with 13mm PES syring filter makes a considerable impact. But, there's still enough bite to make daily injections difficult.

I'm looking into sodium bicarbonate and/or sodium chloride—with the possible addition of lidocaine—mixed with BAC and the peptide.

Lidocaine sometimes works and sometimes it doesn't. If i mix syringe contents before injecting, it partially works but still stings a bit. If i draw lido last and inject first it helps. Perhaps cos lido itself is acidic. I Switched to Bicarb to reduce lido usage.

 

[bigMoJo]

Lidocaine sometimes works and sometimes it doesn't. If i mix syringe contents before injecting, it partially works but still stings a bit. If i draw lido last and inject first it helps. Perhaps cos lido itself is acidic. I Switched to Bicarb to reduce lido usage.

I'm trying to source all of this so I can test pH and maybe come up with a reliable formula. If lidocaine is needed, or just improves the process, why not, right?

Maybe you saw it, but Tracy made a post in the QSC thread about "Lipo C" coming up for sale (currently testing). Not shilling for him, but he listed the ingredients, one being lidocaine:

Post in thread 'Qingdao Sigma Chemical Co., Ltd (International, US, EU, Canada and Australia domestic' Qingdao Sigma Chemical Co., Ltd (International, US, EU, Canada and Australia domestic

So I imagine maybe it's possible to get these ingredients to work. But, at what mixture/concentration? Would these particular peptides degrade and/or aggregate?

 

[songsofpyramids]

Sodium can reduce aggregation, or speed it up, depending on the peptide.

The fact you'd be hard pressed to find any lyophilized pharma protein therapeutic that instructs using anything but BAC (or sterile water for injection) is a good clue its probably not a good idea.

PH is vitally important to prevent degradation, aggregation, and pip. Pharma peptides include excipients to modify the standard BAC PH, in the specific volume you're instructed to use, to get the correct PH in the finished product. This varies from peptide to peptide, and if UGL ever puts some effort into doing the same it'd bring it much closer to a pharma grade product. It really shouldn't be difficult. The info is all publicly available.

Anyway, regarding NAD+, what I found was that compounding pharmacies use plain old BAC to reconstitute.

However, I'm not sure what amount of BAC most UGL users are using, but compounders use 5ml per 500mg vial. Could over-concentration be the primary cause of irritation?

I don’t have time to research more but it looks like several pharma brand hgh have recommendations to use sodium chloride for reconstitution.

For instance, Tev-Tropin by Kaiser Permanente (now discontinued) suggests sodium chloride in their drug insert and the drug came with sodium chloride for preparation. Under “How Supplied” section.

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2014/019774s028lbl.pdf

Zomacton also comes with sodium chloride for reconstitution.

Zomacton (Somatropin (rDNA origin) for Injection): Side Effects, Uses, Dosage, Interactions, Warnings

Zomacton (Somatropin (rDNA origin) for Injection) may treat, side effects, dosage, drug interactions, warnings, patient labeling, reviews, and related medications including drug comparison and health resources.

www.rxlist.com

My ai tells me Omnitrope’s insert recommends both sodium chloride and bac water for reconstitution, but I don’t have time to check the inserts right now but will later.

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2006/021426lbl.pdf

I wouldn’t dismiss this out of hand without more research. I don’t think it’s pertinent to all peptides, but it sure seems applicable to some.

 

[songsofpyramids]

Synthesis and structure-activity relationship studies of 2-(N-substituted)-aminobenzimidazoles as potent negative gating modulators ofsmall conductance Ca2+-activated K+ channels - PubMed

Small conductance Ca2+-activated K+ channels (SK channels) participate in the control of neuronal excitability, in the shaping of action potential firing patterns, and in the regulation of synaptic transmission.SK channel inhibitors have the potential of becoming new drugs for treatment of...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This study seems interesting on the subject of salts like NaCl helping reduce aggregation in peptides by maintaining the electrostatic environment. When I have more free time I’ll dive deeper into this as well.

Edit: more interesting sources on the subject. I’ll hunt them down when I get time. Mostly a note to myself

(A review article on the reconstitution and storage of hGH highlights the role of NaCl in preventing aggregation and maintaining the protein’s biological activity)

Biopharmaceuticals: Biochemistry and Biotechnology (ISBN: 978-3-527-33091-1)

(Research has shown that the ionic environment created by sodium chloride plays a crucial role in reducing protein aggregation, as it stabilizes the protein’s tertiary structure)

Journal of Pharmaceutical Sciences (DOI: 10.1002/jps.23073)