Tips for finding the estrogen sweet spot with Aromasin

[lanier1974]

Finished my SERMS and cruising natty for nearly two weeks. Things feeling pretty good/normal. Workouts strong, libido coming around a bit.

I'm attempting to use Aromasin as mentioned on the forum for finding and maintaining the estrogen balance sweet spot for maximum morning wood regularity and sexual function optimization.

Many have said its a hard balance to achieve. I tolerate aromasin very well, and the lowering of estrogen and SHBG, and thereby raising free test and DHT seems good to me.

On cycle and during PCT, I crushed estrogen more than once and am sensitive to AI's. For me, when E is too high, not much good happens with morning wood, drive or loads, and when E is too low, it's even worse, with shrinkage, inability to get or stay very hard, and watery loads. When E is just right, MW is strong and extended duration every morning, loads and hardness are great, and drive is normal.

I have been keeping a daily morning wood log with aromasin dosing. I have thus far taken four doses over @the last couple of weeks, at 12.5mg E3D in the morning; that is, two full days without taking any, between doses. I use a consistent MW scale and take a log every morning when I get up from 0-3:

0 being nothing
1 being something but not very hard and not much duration
2 being decent hardness and duration
3 being flagpole half the night

My scale thus far has hit all numbers from 0-3, with trends both up the scale over a series of mornings and down also. Trying to make sense of all that.

I see two possible reasons for variation:

-The given dose amount lowers E from a high point above the sweet spot, during the off days E levels pass thru the sweet spot where wood gets perfect, then continues the downward trend where E falls below the sweet spot

-Dose lowers E from too high, nears the sweet spot, but is insufficient to hold the spot and each dose does this yo-yo.

So, I figure I will keep an unchanged, consistent routine with dose amount and timing, changing neither, for 4 full doses, Then, I will change ONE variable at a time, either dose amount or timing, and repeat.

What do you all think is most effective thru your experience, more or less timing, or more or less dosage amount?

Any tips or advice?

Thanks

 

[skywalk]

i'd have to go with a blood test, rather than all those points you mentioned. until that is done, everything is still ultimately guesswork.

 

[Mr. Joe]

A morning wood log...SHOULD I BE KEEPING A MORNING WOOD LOG?!?!?!?!

 

[lanier1974]

A morning wood log...SHOULD I BE KEEPING A MORNING WOOD LOG?!?!?!?!

I keep a calendar log of every single chemical/vitamin/mineral/supplement I take daily and amounts, and also since PCT I keep track of the ole morning wood. I can look back and try and make sense out of the trends.

Of course labs are important. But testing, ranges, methods, and even how you feel that particular day, can affect results, including what you may be taking. Also, everyone is different so your particular sweet spot may be higher or lower than others or even ranges.

If you're getting solid morning wood, I think that's a better damn indicator of where you need to be than any hormonal labs could tell you. I frankly don't give a shit what my test/estrogen/shbg numbers are if I am getting good hard and long lasting morning wood every night/morning.

And I for one cannot afford nor can I access lab work daily or weekly even.

So crying "labs or it can't be known" is an easy answer that's not necessarily helpful or even correct.

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

If you're getting solid morning wood, I think that's a better damn indicator of where you need to be than any hormonal labs could tell you. I frankly don't give a shit what my test/estrogen/shbg numbers are if I am getting good hard and long lasting morning wood every night/morning.

Using an AI to dial-in E2 levels based on "morming wood" is like to trying to adjust blood pressure medication by how red your face is, or a diabetic adjusting insulin by frequency of urination. And about as likely to be successful.

And I for one cannot afford nor can I access lab work daily or weekly even.

So crying "labs or it can't be known" is an easy answer that's not necessarily helpful or even correct.

But "morning wood" or "load size" is?

 

[Dr JIM]

Morning wood is a Testosterone correlate. It occurs in the "morning" when endogenous TT levels are highest.

It's use as indicator of E-2 levels is illogical physiologically and is utter nonsense.

Finally there is NO EVIDENCE E-2 is associated with ED PROVIDING TT values are normative.

Jim

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Morning wood is a Testosterone correlate. It occurs in the "morning" when endogenous TT levels are highest.

It's use as indicator of E-2 levels is illogical physiologically and is utter nonsense.

Finally there is NO EVIDENCE E-2 is associated with ED PROVIDING TT values are normative.

Jim

And, E2 is WNL. There is evidence for abnormal E2 having effects on erections. IMO, the whole idea that one can "dial in" a E2 sweet spot is unproven and highly speculative. In fact, I had patients guess their FT, TT, and E2 on testing. Even to my surprise, they almost never came close. IF there was some E2 connection, research would have teased this factor out by now.

FWIW: https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134337267

 

[DieYoungStrong]

When you try to give your lady friend a nice facial, but you just get a little dribble on your hand...its time for labs

When you wake up with a rocket and crank one out before work....blood levels must be great

When you wake up with morning wood, but have an uncontrollable urge to stick your finger in your ass...your estrogen is probably high

It's in the journal

 

[Dr JIM]

OP how do you know your "sweet spot" is the result of increased TT or decreased E-2 without a baseline? Who's to say WHAT is causing your SD without knowing this data?

In your instance SW is absolutely on spot, u need labs to define exactly what's going on hormonally.

Otherwise your comments about the causes of how you "feel" on a sexual basis is pure conjecture. Who said anything about once weekly labs anyway?

Do you always look at situations in such a "black and/or white" manner?

Go to an Endo as ask him these questions, the next comment will be, LABS!

Jim

 

[Michael Scally MD]

When you try to give your lady friend a nice facial, but you just get a little dribble on your hand...its time for labs

When you wake up with a rocket and crank one out before work....blood levels must be great

When you wake up with morning wood, but have an uncontrollable urge to stick your finger in your ass...your estrogen is probably high

It's in the journal

You might want to keep a box of these by the bedside!!!

 

[Dr JIM]

I would agree DOC but there's far to much emphasis placed on E-2 on AAS forums where the causation of ED especially for those undergoing PCT is invariably testosterone deficiency rather than E-2 excess (although the latter is probably not beneficial under that pretext)

There several caveats in my earlier post however, such as;

1) a normal TT:E-2 ratio
2) a normal or high TT level
3) a "low" exclusively E-2 does not seem causative
based on the literature and/or IME
4) a high E-2 based causation for ED is almost always associated with a suppressed TT level

That being said I will defer any further comments to the Meso expert Dr S!

JIM
:$

 

[lanier1974]

All fair points Dr. Jim and Scally.

Yes, I do view life black and white. For what it's worth.

I can tell you, whether I was on cycle, in pct, or natty as I am now, too much of any chemical that is known to lower E crushed my libido and made my pecker wither, and loads watery and thin. High E doesn't seem to cause those symptoms, just an overall lack of hardness and functionality libido wise. Make of it what you will. Others on other forums have said the exact same thing / had the same experience.

I cannot isolate whether aromasin now, while otherwise natural, is modulating morning wood quality more as a result of better free testosterone or lower estrogen. This thread is about my effort to ferret it out in an experiment.

I assumed I could get labs in a modern country like Japan, where I live. I have been asking doctor after doctor, even the gear supplier, where the hell I can get labs. Nothing. That shocks me, even though I expect unexpected backwardness here.

I'm TRYING to get f'ing labs guys. Gimme a break. Of course I value labs!

 

[lanier1974]

Worth mentioning is that my balls are back to huge now two weeks post pct, almost all my lean gains remain, and I am now equalling or surpassing all peak strength levels attained during cycle. I've got to be making test.

 

[foreveryoung]

Morning wood is a Testosterone correlate. It occurs in the "morning" when endogenous TT levels are highest.

It's use as indicator of E-2 levels is illogical physiologically and is utter nonsense.

Finally there is NO EVIDENCE E-2 is associated with ED PROVIDING TT values are normative.

Jim

what if TT values are high? I know for a fact that use of an AI has a major effect on erections while I am injecting testosterone even in moderate doses.... if it is not the modulation of e2 that is causing these effects than what else could it be

 

[idmd]

I know Dr. S already provided a link to my E2 post but I'll say it again....I get terrific long lasting rock hard boners with reduced libido/sensation on an AI with normal tT and low/even undetectable E2 and I have a much weaker but more sensitive boner with greatly improved libido normal/high normal E2.

I haven't taken an AI in weeks and I've been living with my 75% boners for weeks and if I took an AI right now tomorrow I'd be able to knock you out with my boner.

Now maybe a have an E2R polymorphism that makes me unlike others but popping that AI and seeing the drastic difference in my erections is just too much of a coincidence for E2 to not be the culprit.

 

[lanier1974]

what if TT values are high? I know for a fact that use of an AI has a major effect on erections while I am injecting testosterone even in moderate doses.... if it is not the modulation of e2 that is causing these effects than what else could it be

My point exactly. I don't know why there is so much resistance to this idea when, all over the net, MANY have said that super low E gives them the same symptoms as I've felt myself, both on gear and off.

There is something to it.

Case in point: this AM was to be my fifth scheduled aromasin 12.5 E3D dose. I skipped it. Food, sleep, schedule, workouts, everything else is equal. Today, for whatever reason, my libido hit me so hard at work I had to visit the bathroom at lunch to take care of business and stop daydreaming.


That would seem to mean that the extended time from the last AI dose would have E rising a bit more. Since the Aromasin RAISES free test and LOWERS SHBG, the lowering levels of AI shouldn't mean increases in test. That makes logical sense to me that it's the slight increase in E from levels which had become low that increased the libido.

I can't understand why some on this board seem to think this is non sense.

 

[DieYoungStrong]

Lanier the fact that you cranked one out at work makes you ok in my book.

 

[thinkanabolic2]

I know Dr. S already provided a link to my E2 post but I'll say it again....I get terrific long lasting rock hard boners with reduced libido/sensation on an AI with normal tT and low/even undetectable E2 and I have a much weaker but more sensitive boner with greatly improved libido normal/high normal E2.

I haven't taken an AI in weeks and I've been living with my 75% boners for weeks and if I took an AI right now tomorrow I'd be able to knock you out with my boner.

Now maybe a have an E2R polymorphism that makes me unlike others but popping that AI and seeing the drastic difference in my erections is just too much of a coincidence for E2 to not be the culprit.

I lol'd!

 

[Dr JIM]

I haven't taken an AI in weeks and I've been living with my 75% boners for weeks and if I took an AI right now tomorrow I'd be able to knock you out with my boner.
Now maybe a have an E2R polymorphism that makes me unlike others but popping that AI and seeing the drastic difference in my erections is just too much of a coincidence for E2 to not be the culprit.

Come on now Idster your far to bright to NOT know why erections are more apt to occur during the titration phase of AI therapy! Ask darn near every first time racer whom cycles an AI as monotherapy.

(This is what I often attempt to convince younger fellas to start with because, in this instance, they are either to young or immature for formal cycling yet just "have to start something" which they can call a cycle)

Actually it's much more effective than many believe since younger mates AR are very sensitive to even small changes in TT levels, with the net effect being a significant anabolic benefit.

Moreover no PCT is required.

If a little something "more" is requested I suggest the addition of Var at roughly 20-40 mg QD titrated over the last 4 weeks of a 12 week cycle.

So yea, of course the TT:E-2 ratio oftentimes doubles as the consequence of INCREASED TT with a DECREASED E-2 level.

Heck that combo is like "I'm an erection waiting to happen, IN PUBLIC doc", lol!

 

[lanier1974]

Actually it's much more effective than many believe since younger mates AR are very sensitive to even small changes in TT levels, with the net effect being a significant anabolic benefit.

Moreover no PCT is required.

If a little something "more" is requested I suggest the addition of Var at roughly 20-40 mg QD titrated over the last 4 weeks of a 12 week cycle.

So yea, of course the TT:E-2 ratio oftentimes doubles as the consequence of INCREASED TT with a DECREASED E-2 level.

Dr Jim, great info. Thanks.

This was my thinking, and in effect, the reason I'm trying to take Aromasin only as a sort of no-PCT-required test booster, not just to find the E sweet spot.

I can FEEL my free test up. When I get the dose too high or frequent, E gets too low and libido dies. When E gets up too high, great libido with half hard boners occur. Lately, I'm finding 6.25E3D is working well for both increasing free test and keeping E levels "sweet".

That level feels awesome. Free test up, morning wood up, confidence/agression up, good compromise between hard erections from free test and libido and sensation from modulated E.

How long can I get away with this?

2 weeks after PCT now, my strength/volume/reps in ALL lifts are are back at or have surpassed my 12week on-cycle test/mast highs!

Could you specifically clarify the Anavar recommendations? 12 weeks on Var with Ai? 12 weeks on Ai and last 4 weeks Var? Pct required? Clarify?

I want something to maintain or increase strength and my lean gains, while cutting calories more aggressively for fat loss.

Cheers