MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
TRT: A Recipe for Success
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zumper
New Member
I am 24 years old and have secondary hypogonadism.before two weeks i was doing HCG 1500 iu every third day and nolvadex 40mg per day.Before two days my doc went me to testim gel i tube a day which provides 50mg test and said me to cut HCG but only testim does not seem to help me(test levels before HRT were in the low normal range and we want to bring them in the middle).What do you think about andriol,will it help me for this,what dosage?
Do the Testim for only 2 weeks then get retested to see if your levels came up most don't do well on 1 5grams tube of Testim and end up on more. So if you wait longer then 2 weeks you can be lower the when you started. Go to www.allthingsmale.com and read TRT: A Recipe for Success and his HCG Update if you follow this you will be good in no time.zumper said:
MDLV
New Member
I am a 36 yr old male on TRT. I have had a unilateral orchiectomy due to embryonal carcinoma. No chemo. Years before discovering the carcinoma, I had been diagnosed with hypogonadism (most likely due to extensive androstenedone use.) Three years after the orchiectomy, I sought TRT. I am now on 300mg/wk of Cypionate and 4mg/wk of Arimidex. I have been on much lower doses of each, but I experienced atypical unrelentless depression. I have been on slightly lower doses, but experienced atypical, never-ending, and unwarranted anxiety, except during exercise.
My anti-aging physician says that 300mg/wk is A LOT of testosterone. I have seen it posted on this forum that typically with Cypionate 200mg/wk is the recommended minimum and 400mg/wk is "preferred." Do you agree or disagree with these "recommendations?" Why?
Thank you
Profile: Powerlifter, sprinter (run, swim, cycle, row)
My anti-aging physician says that 300mg/wk is A LOT of testosterone. I have seen it posted on this forum that typically with Cypionate 200mg/wk is the recommended minimum and 400mg/wk is "preferred." Do you agree or disagree with these "recommendations?" Why?
Thank you
Profile: Powerlifter, sprinter (run, swim, cycle, row)
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HeadDoc
Psychologist
those would be huge doses of both meds. Actually the typical doses of test cyp according to the recipe is 100 mg per week and .25 mg arimidex E2-3D. The later is only used is estrodial is too high. In some the testoserone alone works ok. However, that said, the clinical decisions are baed on assays and individual response. Without the lab data, I would assume that estrodial is too low and you are inducing depression and anxiety due to the high doses of arimidex. Do you have any lab results to tell us about? Reread the recipe and start digging thru your labs. Your answers are probably there.
This is a cut & paste from this site on Cypionate.
http://www.ftmguide.org/ttypes.html#cypionate
Testosterone Cypionate: Chemical Formula C8H14O2
Testosterone cypionate is the other main injectable form of testosterone prescribed to FTMs in the United States. It is a slow-acting ester with a release time between 8-10 days, similar to that of enanthate. The name-brand of T-cypionate available in the United States is called "Depo-Testosterone," which is suspended in cottonseed oil. Testosterone cypionate is typically injected anywhere between once every week to once every three weeks. Generic testosterone cypionate can also be obtained through a compounding pharmacy; such pharmacies can mix the cypionate in either sesame or cotton seed oil.
The site is for female to male change but has dam good info in it. I would like to see you start a new Theard on this and post your tests with the units and ranges.
I use Depo T same thing as you using do you get a good quality vile of this T or dose your Dr. sell it to you and it is compounded.
I started on shots from gels I need higher levels then most men. I started at 100mgs a week this brought my levels of Total T up to 600 so we upped it to 150mgs a week and all that happened was I went up to 650. I need my levels up over 800 and my labs range is not like most it is 262 to 1598. So we added HCG to my shots of T. I was doing 500 IU's 3x's a week after my 15th shot my levels doubled. So if I were to try to get my levels up over 800 just using T shots it would be about 250 mgs a week. Here is what I know I am a Type A very highly stressed. So this eats up the T meds very fast if I got the flue my levels drop dam fast just from being sick with the dam flue. Today I do my t shots every 3 days 64 mgs. and the 2 days in between I do 300 IU's of HCG. Doing this keep me leveled and keeps my Estradiol down. I am betting your Estradiol of way up doing this.
http://www.ftmguide.org/ttypes.html#cypionate
Testosterone Cypionate: Chemical Formula C8H14O2
Testosterone cypionate is the other main injectable form of testosterone prescribed to FTMs in the United States. It is a slow-acting ester with a release time between 8-10 days, similar to that of enanthate. The name-brand of T-cypionate available in the United States is called "Depo-Testosterone," which is suspended in cottonseed oil. Testosterone cypionate is typically injected anywhere between once every week to once every three weeks. Generic testosterone cypionate can also be obtained through a compounding pharmacy; such pharmacies can mix the cypionate in either sesame or cotton seed oil.
The site is for female to male change but has dam good info in it. I would like to see you start a new Theard on this and post your tests with the units and ranges.
I use Depo T same thing as you using do you get a good quality vile of this T or dose your Dr. sell it to you and it is compounded.
I started on shots from gels I need higher levels then most men. I started at 100mgs a week this brought my levels of Total T up to 600 so we upped it to 150mgs a week and all that happened was I went up to 650. I need my levels up over 800 and my labs range is not like most it is 262 to 1598. So we added HCG to my shots of T. I was doing 500 IU's 3x's a week after my 15th shot my levels doubled. So if I were to try to get my levels up over 800 just using T shots it would be about 250 mgs a week. Here is what I know I am a Type A very highly stressed. So this eats up the T meds very fast if I got the flue my levels drop dam fast just from being sick with the dam flue. Today I do my t shots every 3 days 64 mgs. and the 2 days in between I do 300 IU's of HCG. Doing this keep me leveled and keeps my Estradiol down. I am betting your Estradiol of way up doing this.
MDLV said:
MDLV
New Member
HeadDoc said:
Thank you VERY MUCH for your response. You are correct re: "individual response." My doc says that it appears I am unusually sensitive to estradiol. To make matters worse, whenever I was on less than 4mg/wk of Arimidex, my estradiol levels were quite elevated. The combination of the sensitivity and elevation made me miserable! Now, on 300mg/wk Cypionate and 4mg/wk Arimidex, I finally feel incredible!
That being said, I believe my doc has been very ethical from the beginning. He started me out at very conservative levels of each, but my body and mind would just not respond appropriately. Each month, he would make conservative adjustments in my meds. It has taken 9 months to get my meds where they are today. I hope this paragraph is a good reflection on him, his practice, and the practice of Anti-Aging Medicine/TRT.
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HeadDoc
Psychologist
MDLV said:
good point. Just knowing the doses do not tell the whole story. So do you use antidepressants or anxiolytics for the mood problems and anxiety? If you read Marianco's thread you wil be able to find some excellant material on the interrelationships of neurotransmitters and hormones.
MDLV
New Member
HeadDoc said:So do you use antidepressants or anxiolytics for the mood problems and anxiety?QUOTE]
The atypical mood problems and anxiety were due to 1) hypersensitivity to estradiol. 2) Elevated estradiol levels. About a week after my prescription of Arimidex was increased to 4mg/wk, the atypical mood problems and anxiety disappeared completely.
HeadDoc
Psychologist
still got enough estrogen in your system for your bones? Have you and the doc considered DIM/I3C as a replacement for some of the arimidex? When Dr. John, i.e. Swale, introduced many of us to DIM/I3C it was to lower estrodial and allow estrogen to stay in healthy levels.
MDLV
New Member
HeadDoc said:
Wow, you stumped me. Sigh. I am actually ignorant when it comes to the benefits/pros of estrogen. SInce I am a 36 yr old powerlifter and sprinter that has always sought optimal testosterone levels and minimal estrogen levels, may be you could shed a little light on the topic for me and who knows how many out there like me. I am also embarrased to say that I thought estradiol and estrogen were synonyms.
HeadDoc
Psychologist
look thru the material over at Life Extension under the topic of hormone replacement OR Phillip Miller's Life Extension Revolution.
MDLV
New Member
HeadDoc said:
Thank you!
Here is a link that is good and do get the book by Dr. Shippen called "The Testosterone Syndrome"MDLV said:Wow, you stumped me. Sigh. I am actually ignorant when it comes to the benefits/pros of estrogen. SInce I am a 36 yr old powerlifter and sprinter that has always sought optimal testosterone levels and minimal estrogen levels, may be you could shed a little light on the topic for me and who knows how many out there like me. I am also embarrased to say that I thought estradiol and estrogen were synonyms.
http://www.smart-drugs.com/ias-estrogen.htm
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459855&pageNo=-1#bottom
MDLV
New Member
pmgamer18 said:
VERY nice! Thank you
MDLV
New Member
TRT: A Recipe For Success. I read the article and you nailed a concern of mine- "should serum androgen levels greatly exceed the top of “normal” range, the patient risks becoming “spoiled” at that level. They would then feel the subjective benefits steroid athletes report, and it would be difficult to get the patient then to be happy at a more moderate—and proper—dose."
This statement is depressing. I'm not trying to be offensive, just open. In 1998-1999, I was 29 yrs old and experimenting with Andro. My friends did illegal steroids, but I refrained due to cost, the illegality, the health risks taught in the media, etc. In 1999, I discovered an amazing combination! According to my training log for that year, I was taking three 1000mg doses per day of Chrysin by Pinnacle and trying various Andro products. July 1999, I started taking Andro-6 by EAS as my andro supplement. The "active" ingredients were, per dose of 3 capsules, androstenedione (300 milligrams), DHEA (150 milligrams), tribulus terrestris (750 milligrams), chrysin (625 milligrams), indole-3-carbinol (300 milligrams), and saw palmetto (540 milligrams). I took one dose per day (1 capsule 3 times/day.)
NEVER have I felt more incredible in 36 yrs of living. Mentally- I was 100% confident that there was nothing I could not accomplish in my life. For a 29 year old who was smart enough to get straight A's in high school when he wanted to but was horrified of college and still had not completed as much as an asssociates degree due to the intimidation, this was a very big deal! But more than that, I just felt incredible mentally/emotionally. I felt SO positive, so relaxed, so confident, so enabled, and at peace within. Physically- I felt unreal! When I exercised, my muscles felt like someone had opened a valve that let fluids into each and every muscle cell, not to the point of just filling the cell, but dramatically increasing the intracellular pressure. My "pumps" were so big they ached! I remember my biceps feeling like they were going to explode between sets! (Not in a negative pain manner, but in an intense pleasurable sense of fullness.) I was ready to take on the world and make one hell of a positive contribution! I also had a tremendous amount of energy! I looked and felt incredible!
As time went on, things in my life changed and I could no longer afford the supplements for a while. I survived just fine- no "crash." I knew where I had been and how to get back up there. Eventually, Andro-6 was removed from the market. Even though I am currently on a prescription of 300mg of Cypionate and 4mg of Arimidex, I still do not feel like I did in 1999. That is depressing.
Since I love bodybuilding/powerlifting/sprinting, I fear my anti-aging doctor may be under the impression that I am out to abuse his practice. The fact is, I just want to look and feel incredible again. Is that not the intent of anti-aging therapy?
In the aforementioned article, it states ""should serum androgen levels greatly exceed the top of “normal” range, the patient risks becoming “spoiled” at that level. They would then feel the subjective benefits steroid athletes report, and it would be difficult to get the patient then to be happy at a more moderate—and proper—dose." I completely agree, but if that "spoiled" state results in a man who feels enabled to make "one hell of a positive contribution to the world," is such a "spoiled" state such a bad thing? In theory, we can "think positive," and use other psychological tactics to "succeed" in life, but is it not a fact that testosterone/estrogen levels, calcium and magnesium levels, and other biochemical factors affect our minds? It seems to me, that we can "think postive, etc" all we want, but if our biochemistry is out of whack or less-than-what-it-could-be, we are fighting one hell of a battle each day. It seems to me, a country, a world, in which people feel more positive and empowered would be a better place. (sorry for the length. Thank you for listening.)
This statement is depressing. I'm not trying to be offensive, just open. In 1998-1999, I was 29 yrs old and experimenting with Andro. My friends did illegal steroids, but I refrained due to cost, the illegality, the health risks taught in the media, etc. In 1999, I discovered an amazing combination! According to my training log for that year, I was taking three 1000mg doses per day of Chrysin by Pinnacle and trying various Andro products. July 1999, I started taking Andro-6 by EAS as my andro supplement. The "active" ingredients were, per dose of 3 capsules, androstenedione (300 milligrams), DHEA (150 milligrams), tribulus terrestris (750 milligrams), chrysin (625 milligrams), indole-3-carbinol (300 milligrams), and saw palmetto (540 milligrams). I took one dose per day (1 capsule 3 times/day.)
NEVER have I felt more incredible in 36 yrs of living. Mentally- I was 100% confident that there was nothing I could not accomplish in my life. For a 29 year old who was smart enough to get straight A's in high school when he wanted to but was horrified of college and still had not completed as much as an asssociates degree due to the intimidation, this was a very big deal! But more than that, I just felt incredible mentally/emotionally. I felt SO positive, so relaxed, so confident, so enabled, and at peace within. Physically- I felt unreal! When I exercised, my muscles felt like someone had opened a valve that let fluids into each and every muscle cell, not to the point of just filling the cell, but dramatically increasing the intracellular pressure. My "pumps" were so big they ached! I remember my biceps feeling like they were going to explode between sets! (Not in a negative pain manner, but in an intense pleasurable sense of fullness.) I was ready to take on the world and make one hell of a positive contribution! I also had a tremendous amount of energy! I looked and felt incredible!
As time went on, things in my life changed and I could no longer afford the supplements for a while. I survived just fine- no "crash." I knew where I had been and how to get back up there. Eventually, Andro-6 was removed from the market. Even though I am currently on a prescription of 300mg of Cypionate and 4mg of Arimidex, I still do not feel like I did in 1999. That is depressing.
Since I love bodybuilding/powerlifting/sprinting, I fear my anti-aging doctor may be under the impression that I am out to abuse his practice. The fact is, I just want to look and feel incredible again. Is that not the intent of anti-aging therapy?
In the aforementioned article, it states ""should serum androgen levels greatly exceed the top of “normal” range, the patient risks becoming “spoiled” at that level. They would then feel the subjective benefits steroid athletes report, and it would be difficult to get the patient then to be happy at a more moderate—and proper—dose." I completely agree, but if that "spoiled" state results in a man who feels enabled to make "one hell of a positive contribution to the world," is such a "spoiled" state such a bad thing? In theory, we can "think positive," and use other psychological tactics to "succeed" in life, but is it not a fact that testosterone/estrogen levels, calcium and magnesium levels, and other biochemical factors affect our minds? It seems to me, that we can "think postive, etc" all we want, but if our biochemistry is out of whack or less-than-what-it-could-be, we are fighting one hell of a battle each day. It seems to me, a country, a world, in which people feel more positive and empowered would be a better place. (sorry for the length. Thank you for listening.)
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MDLV
New Member
No reply? Need more info?
36 yr old male, unilateral orchiectomy due to embryonal carcinoma
Baseline (just prior to TRT): Eatradiol Ultra Sensitive 13 pg/mL, LH 11.1 mIU/mL, Testosterone 324 ng/dL, DHEA 3.2 ng/ml, Free Testosterone 7.8 pg/mL, percent free 0.24, very poor libido.
Presciption: 95mg/wk Cypionate, later increased to 120mg, dhea 50 mg q am
Result after 5 weeks: Testosterone 764, Free testosterone 21, percent free 0.27, estradiol high sensitvity 42, dhea 428, IGF-1 223, no change in libido, energy levels decreased, poor mood, poor focus and concentration, atypical apathy (towards arising out of bed in the morning, eating, exercising, studying, arriving to work on time, going to work,) significant atypical depression,
Presciption: 120 mg/wk Cypionate, 1 mg twice per week of Arimidex, dhea 50mg q am
Result after 3 weeks: (I will have to get a copy of the labs), slightly improved libido, energy levels still low but improved, rise in anxiety, depression eliminated, good focus and concentration, apathy improved but not eliminated.
Prescription change: 140 mg/wk
Result: (I will have to get a copy of the labs), no change in libido, no change in energy levels, further rise in atypical and irrational anxiety, apathy elminated.
Prescription change: 200mg/wk
Results: no change
Prescription change: 300mg/wk
Result: rise in energy levels, able to get enough energy to get back in the gym for the first time since mid December, no change in anxiety, elevated estradiol
Presciption change: 4mg/wk of Arimidex,
Result: anxiety eliminated, back to feeling "normal" for the first time in 9 months of TRT., libido still poor. No real sense of being on any testosterone at all. Back to how I felt at baseline.
36 yr old male, unilateral orchiectomy due to embryonal carcinoma
Baseline (just prior to TRT): Eatradiol Ultra Sensitive 13 pg/mL, LH 11.1 mIU/mL, Testosterone 324 ng/dL, DHEA 3.2 ng/ml, Free Testosterone 7.8 pg/mL, percent free 0.24, very poor libido.
Presciption: 95mg/wk Cypionate, later increased to 120mg, dhea 50 mg q am
Result after 5 weeks: Testosterone 764, Free testosterone 21, percent free 0.27, estradiol high sensitvity 42, dhea 428, IGF-1 223, no change in libido, energy levels decreased, poor mood, poor focus and concentration, atypical apathy (towards arising out of bed in the morning, eating, exercising, studying, arriving to work on time, going to work,) significant atypical depression,
Presciption: 120 mg/wk Cypionate, 1 mg twice per week of Arimidex, dhea 50mg q am
Result after 3 weeks: (I will have to get a copy of the labs), slightly improved libido, energy levels still low but improved, rise in anxiety, depression eliminated, good focus and concentration, apathy improved but not eliminated.
Prescription change: 140 mg/wk
Result: (I will have to get a copy of the labs), no change in libido, no change in energy levels, further rise in atypical and irrational anxiety, apathy elminated.
Prescription change: 200mg/wk
Results: no change
Prescription change: 300mg/wk
Result: rise in energy levels, able to get enough energy to get back in the gym for the first time since mid December, no change in anxiety, elevated estradiol
Presciption change: 4mg/wk of Arimidex,
Result: anxiety eliminated, back to feeling "normal" for the first time in 9 months of TRT., libido still poor. No real sense of being on any testosterone at all. Back to how I felt at baseline.
The_Skeptic
New Member
MDLV said:
I think the problem is that it's impossible to maintain that good feeling you get in the beginning. So you may get a great feeling with your T levels at the top of the range, but it seems that with each dose, E2 starts becoming more of a problem and that great feeling turns into a shitty feeling. And the higher your T levels go, the higher your E levels go.
And unfortunately, E always seems to supercede T in these situations.
I've been on TRT for eleven years and I have yet to get that feeling I had during the first few months. Where before I had incredible libido, I started having huge problems, even though I had taken my shot. I couldn't figure it out because I thought Testosterone was supposed to be good for the libido.
Years later, with no help from my doctors, I found out the problem was escalating estrogen levels.
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