TRT: A Recipe for Success

[MDLV]

Re: Article: "TRT: A Recipe for Success"

Quote from the article "should serum androgen levels greatly exceed the top of “normal” range, the patient risks becoming “spoiled” at that level. They would then feel the subjective benefits steroid athletes report, and it would be difficult to get the patient then to be happy at a more moderate—and proper—dose."

Honestly, what is wrong with spoiling a patient? Who defines what a "proper" dose is and how?

 

[HeadDoc]

Re: Article: "TRT: A Recipe for Success"

Quote from the article "should serum androgen levels greatly exceed the top of normal range, the patient risks becoming spoiled at that level. They would then feel the subjective benefits steroid athletes report, and it would be difficult to get the patient then to be happy at a more moderateand properdose."

Honestly, what is wrong with spoiling a patient? Who defines what a "proper" dose is and how?

Good HRT uses the least effective doses to achieve the desired clinical effect. As we discussed many times, these hormones act and react to one another. Accelerating one over the others produces deleterious pharmacokinetic reactions. Specificaly with respect to testosterone, superphysiologic levels of testosterone will aggrivate the prostate and sent PSA up. Is prostate cancer a risk that most men are will to take given knowing that they may be inducing this thru their own actions? Abuse of GH may induce diabetes. We use the bloodwork and the Merck manual to define many of the ranges that are used in HRT.

 

[MDLV]

Re: Article: "TRT: A Recipe for Success"

Wow! Thank you! I am sure there are thousands out there like me who are looking all over the internet for those answers. I really appreciate your time! I assume my doc is monitoring my psa levels through the bloodwork I have done every 2-3 months. I will take a look around online for information on the Merk manual content, just to be more educated.

 

[thebigEZ]

I think the problem is that it's impossible to maintain that good feeling you get in the beginning. So you may get a great feeling with your T levels at the top of the range, but it seems that with each dose, E2 starts becoming more of a problem and that great feeling turns into a shitty feeling. And the higher your T levels go, the higher your E levels go.

And unfortunately, E always seems to supercede T in these situations.

I've been on TRT for eleven years and I have yet to get that feeling I had during the first few months. Where before I had incredible libido, I started having huge problems, even though I had taken my shot. I couldn't figure it out because I thought Testosterone was supposed to be good for the libido.

Years later, with no help from my doctors, I found out the problem was escalating estrogen levels.

Now that you have realized your problem was an elevated E2, have you gotten back that good feeling that you had when you first started trt?

 

[pikky knee]

I am a pussy..

 

[rockx]

Good day Gentlemen,
This is my first post to this board after a while of lurking. I have been on TRT (through Dr) for a couple of years now and am begining to encounter some problems. The more I search for infomation on this subject the more I find it is dependant on the indivdual, but I did not want to jump in and start posting all my crap on a board where I do not know anyone. That is just rude.

To put it in a nutshell, the TRT dosage I have been happily on for the last few years is no longer cutting it. I have not "cycled" the TRT and only have maintained a constant 250mg a week. A few months ago, I started to feel like I felt before I began TRT (lower energy, low sex drive, etc) also, (and I can't decide if it has been a slow decline or in the last few months,) my nuts have dropped in size.

I am 36 years old and my Dr. thinks we should just up my TRT dosage to 300 a week. I thought if I could get my nuts to come back and perhaps start working a little better (if that is possible) I could get back to where I was when I began TRT and feel good with the lower weekly dosage.

Since some nipple problems many years ago, I take 10mg of Tamoxifin everyday and if my nipples start to itch I bump that up to 40 for a couple days, down to 20 for a week and then back to 10. I tried Armidex for a while in 2002 but I do not have insurance and it is too damned expensive.

From what I have read, here and in other books/sites, HCG would be a good addition to address my problems and, in my non Dr. opinion, it looks like a better option than just uping my TRT. (I have been trying 300mg for the last month and nothing has really changed)

My Dr. is open to my ideas but is not familer with HCG as a contiunal part of a therapy regime and is hestiant to prescibe HCG to me based on estrogen senstivity (nipple problems).

What I am asking in a sense is two fold. 1. General opinons advise and 2. a link or direction to look for legitmate information on HCG that I can take to my Dr. (saying that someone on some website said I should take something will not cut it)

Thank anyone who took the time to read thusfar, it ended up being much longer than antipated.

 

[pmgamer18]

First off you don't need to know us to post it's not rude at all this is why we post here. It would help if you could re-post this as a new post. Adding it on to a sticky can get missed by many. Also please do post your Tests that you had done before going on TRT and the last tests you have had done. Doing this much testosterone everyweek is way to much and will drive your E2 way up.

The best way to keep E2 down is to use Indolplex/DIM or Arimidex but with the dose your doing I don't think any DIM will help. You need to cut your dose down to no more then 150 mgs a week.

Have you had your E2 tested a test for men.
Here is a good link on E2.
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=8999BE60A174ABE1E0DECBE135FBF7A6.hydra?id=459855&pageNo=-1#bottom

 

[JanSz]

Good day Gentlemen,
This is my first post to this board after a while of lurking. I have been on TRT (through Dr) for a couple of years now and am begining to encounter some problems. The more I search for infomation on this subject the more I find it is dependant on the indivdual, but I did not want to jump in and start posting all my crap on a board where I do not know anyone. That is just rude.

To put it in a nutshell, the TRT dosage I have been happily on for the last few years is no longer cutting it. I have not "cycled" the TRT and only have maintained a constant 250mg a week. A few months ago, I started to feel like I felt before I began TRT (lower energy, low sex drive, etc) also, (and I can't decide if it has been a slow decline or in the last few months,) my nuts have dropped in size.

I am 36 years old and my Dr. thinks we should just up my TRT dosage to 300 a week. I thought if I could get my nuts to come back and perhaps start working a little better (if that is possible) I could get back to where I was when I began TRT and feel good with the lower weekly dosage.

Since some nipple problems many years ago, I take 10mg of Tamoxifin everyday and if my nipples start to itch I bump that up to 40 for a couple days, down to 20 for a week and then back to 10. I tried Armidex for a while in 2002 but I do not have insurance and it is too damned expensive.

From what I have read, here and in other books/sites, HCG would be a good addition to address my problems and, in my non Dr. opinion, it looks like a better option than just uping my TRT. (I have been trying 300mg for the last month and nothing has really changed)

My Dr. is open to my ideas but is not familer with HCG as a contiunal part of a therapy regime and is hestiant to prescibe HCG to me based on estrogen senstivity (nipple problems).

What I am asking in a sense is two fold. 1. General opinons advise and 2. a link or direction to look for legitmate information on HCG that I can take to my Dr. (saying that someone on some website said I should take something will not cut it)

Thank anyone who took the time to read thusfar, it ended up being much longer than antipated.

You have got good info from Phil.
I just want to remind you that advertiser of this board is selling inexpensive
LiquiDex - Arimidex 30ml @ 1mg/ml
liquid, much easier getting the 1/4mg dose that is often used.


and many others. I am not sure if they have HGH.

 

[MrT]

Attached below.

Hi Dr C:

I had been on 7.5 gm of Androgel for a couple of years. I felt a ton better but not long ago I started asking if maybe my levels were dipping low again. My Doctor said my E2 was 53 and that was too high. She suggested this might be why I was feeling crappy.

So, I did some R&D about high estrodiol and found a link to your site about various solutions. I asked her about Arimidex and she said she wasn't comfortable prescribing it. *The prescribing info has lots of "For Women Only" statements that made her twitchy. Plus the dose? and so on. We talked about many ideas. One is that I've been taking DHEA tablets and she found a paper that stated that tablet forms of DHEA tend ot spike male E2. She also pondered if rubbing Androgel in belly "flab" was part of the problem. So we also switched my to Test/Cryp injectables 100mg every two weeks to start.

Does this sound like a sound path to take? And are there any group studies of men using Arimidex? I'm concerned about heart issues if I were to start that and my Doc is just afraid of it because it off label and she is not familiar with it. I do NOT want to go to a 90 year old Endo that will screw me up more then I am.

Thanks!

 

[HeadDoc]

Hi Dr C:

I had been on 7.5 gm of Androgel for a couple of years. I felt a ton better but not long ago I started asking if maybe my levels were dipping low again. My Doctor said my E2 was 53 and that was too high. She suggested this might be why I was feeling crappy.

So, I did some R&D about high estrodiol and found a link to your site about various solutions. I asked her about Arimidex and she said she wasn't comfortable prescribing it. *The prescribing info has lots of "For Women Only" statements that made her twitchy. Plus the dose? and so on. We talked about many ideas. One is that I've been taking DHEA tablets and she found a paper that stated that tablet forms of DHEA tend ot spike male E2. She also pondered if rubbing Androgel in belly "flab" was part of the problem. So we also switched my to Test/Cryp injectables 100mg every two weeks to start.

Does this sound like a sound path to take? And are there any group studies of men using Arimidex? I'm concerned about heart issues if I were to start that and my Doc is just afraid of it because it off label and she is not familiar with it. I do NOT want to go to a 90 year old Endo that will screw me up more then I am.

Thanks!

Swale is no longer here. Arimidex is used for males on HRT as the clinical presentation and bloodwork indicate. Consider rubbing the gel on a lean body part. If you are over fat, IM may be a good idea till you lose some of the body fat. Body fat does have significant amount of the aromatase enzyme.

 

[Jtay]

Baclofen reverses T negative feedback ?

Swale and others,,

I sent you an e-mail regarding this study. What is your opinion on this regarding it's use in place of HCG in TRT?

It also comes in pill form and is considered a "safe" drug for a very low cost of 20-40 cents per pill here in the USA..

If the pill form of this really works seams like this will be revolutionary to anti-aging and body building..

http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/141/11/3940

While I understand the study is on intrathecal Baclofen it is my impression that the pill form works as well and also crosses the BBB:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2023878&dopt=AbstractPlus

If this is not the correct place to post this, sorry. However, I thought it would be the most likely place you would read it.

Thanks

 

[HeadDoc]

It probably does belong in its own thread. This tread is about the pragmatic aspects of TRT. The artilcle you posted has more theoretical application. I found the information on the gaba receptors, LH, GRHrh, and testosterone interesting.

 

[Jtay]

Thanks head doc but I do believe it is more than theoretical. Here's another study...

The news just seems to be getting better and better:

Also looks like Baclofen raises IGF-I and it appears this study was with the pills. Ok, let me see,,,,so it raises LH, FSH, Testosterone, IGF-I naturally and you can also use testosterone with no negative feedback and all this for pennies a pill. Someone help me here.....Am I dreaming or what?

Here is another study....

And there are more

http://jcp.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/46/4/476

I do have it as a main topic but continue to post here as I value Swale's opinion. I will stop if you request but I do think this may be important to TRT. I will post my results when I begin later this next week unless Swale convinces me otherwise.

 

[HeadDoc]

Thanks head doc but I do believe it is more than theoretical. Here's another study...

The news just seems to be getting better and better:

Also looks like Baclofen raises IGF-I and it appears this study was with the pills. Ok, let me see,,,,so it raises LH, FSH, Testosterone, IGF-I naturally and you can also use testosterone with no negative feedback and all this for pennies a pill. Someone help me here.....Am I dreaming or what?

Here is another study....

And there are more

http://jcp.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/46/4/476

I do have it as a main topic but continue to post here as I value Swale's opinion. I will stop if you request but I do think this may be important to TRT. I will post my results when I begin later this next week unless Swale convinces me otherwise.

feel free to keep posting. I'm not sure that this informatin is available for immediate application to humans. Again the information is great and speaks to methods of TRT outside the methods proposed in this thread. Please keep posting.

 

[Jtay]

Thanks Head Doc. just to simply things I will continue to post on the "normal thread" under "Reverse T Negative Feedback" heading. Is there a way that you can put Baclofen in front of the heading? Thus, it would read...

Baclofen - Reverse T Negative Feedback.

If too much trouble no prob.

 

[LowTestosterone38]

Thanks head doc but I do believe it is more than theoretical. Here's another study...

The news just seems to be getting better and better:

Also looks like Baclofen raises IGF-I and it appears this study was with the pills. Ok, let me see,,,,so it raises LH, FSH, Testosterone, IGF-I naturally and you can also use testosterone with no negative feedback and all this for pennies a pill. Someone help me here.....Am I dreaming or what?

Here is another study....

And there are more

Effect of Low-Dose Baclofen Administration on Plasma Insulin-like Growth Factor-I in Persons With Spinal Cord Injury -- Bauman et al. 46 (4): 476 -- The Journal of Clinical Pharmacology

I do have it as a main topic but continue to post here as I value Swale's opinion. I will stop if you request but I do think this may be important to TRT. I will post my results when I begin later this next week unless Swale convinces me otherwise.

Ive been prescribed baclofen and I can tell you, I dont care what some study somewhere says. Baclofen has no anabolic properties whatsoever nor any sort of augmentation properties. It might be a muscle relaxant you could use to speed recovery from hard workouts, but thats about all. Baclofen made me fat, gave me delayed ejaculation real bad, made me feel slothy, baclofen made me feel awful. Unless you have MS, spinal cord injuries, dystonia or other serious neurological illness, its a worthless drug for TRT or TRT augmentation.

Fred

 

[keith1958]

Ive been prescribed baclofen and I can tell you, I dont care what some study somewhere says. Baclofen has no anabolic properties whatsoever nor any sort of augmentation properties. It might be a muscle relaxant you could use to speed recovery from hard workouts, but thats about all. Baclofen made me fat, gave me delayed ejaculation real bad, made me feel slothy, baclofen made me feel awful. Unless you have MS, spinal cord injuries, dystonia or other serious neurological illness, its a worthless drug for TRT or TRT augmentation.

Fred

I agree I even have MS and Baclofen is garbage.

 

[m_ob]

I agree I even have MS and Baclofen is garbage.

haha true