What builds/spares more muscle high carb moderate protein or high protein low carb when calories are equal?

[dashriprock]

I was told to shoot for 400g of protein, roughly 2x bw (lbs).

Then someone else said that's excessive and all I need is 1x bw and more carbs because carbs are anabolic.

Protein is unlikely to offer any special benefits (to added muscle mass) beyond optimal consumption, but because carbohydrates lead to insulin secretion, and because insulin is highly anabolic over time and when paired with resistance training, eating as much carbohydrate as possible within constraints is practical for muscle gain. Carbohydrates are so valuable for muscle gain that the recommendation for maximum protein on a hypercaloric diet should likely be capped at around 1.5g of protein per pound of body weight per day so that a greater caloric value of carbs can be programmed.

Data has consistently shown that consumption above about 0.9g of protein per pound of body weight per day does not enhance muscle gain. Since carbs do not have quite as low a cap for their anabolic effects, any extra protein consumed is going to risk pushing out carbs within the constraint of calories, and thus net anabolism could suffer. Our recommendation for optimal muscle growth is therefore around 1.0g of protein per pound of body weight per day.

Consuming carbohydrates is an extremely powerful means of preventing muscle loss. Carbs provide an energy source that prevents the breakdown of tissue for fuel. In addition, anabolism is achieved via both glycogen- and insulin-mediated pathways, both of which are directly affected by carb intake. Elevations in blood glucose resulting from carbohydrate consumption lead to the secretion of insulin, a highly anabolic hormone. Although insulin is anabolic to both muscle and fat tissue, for leaner individuals doing resistance training, the net effect of insulin is biased towards building muscle tissue more than fat tissue. Like many other hormones (be it testosterone, growth hormone, estrogen, etc.), insulin exerts most of its power when its concentration is chronically elevated. If insulin is high post-workout for an hour but very low during the rest of the day, the total exposure of the muscles to insulin is relatively insignificant. If insulin is instead elevated for a large portion of each day, its anabolic and anti-catabolic signaling effects can add up to make substantial differences in muscularity over the long (months) term.

What is the correct answer?

 

[bornSkinny]

Depends on who you believe but 400 grams a day is nuts if you ask me.
I’d say the current research is saying that about 1 gram per pound per day is sufficient to maximize all your muscle protein synthesis opportunities.

400 would be too much for me. I think what I do now is a lot of work.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

None of the science to my knowledge has been conducted on individuals using reasonable amounts of AAS, I would assume due to ethical concerns. Most of what we have on the enhanced bodybuilding side is anecdotes backed by pieces of science.

I can tell you there’s a reason pros eat 350g+ of protein. 2g/lb may be a bit excessive however. None of this is to discount the value of carbs. Could give a very lengthy explanation, but set protein (above 1g/lb if you’re enhanced, IMO) which typically also dictates fat intake and then modulate cals for growth and fat loss largely with carb changes.

 

[dashriprock]

I can tell you there’s a reason pros eat 350g+ of protein

please either tell me the reason or point me to where I can go learn why. thank you.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

please either tell me the reason or point me to where I can go learn why. thank you.

If you’re going to look for hard scientific evidence to support every decision you make in a bodybuilding endeavor you’re going to have a pretty poor time.

Carbs, insulin do not build muscle. Period. They contribute to protein sparing/providing easily usable energy and shuttling nutrients. I have not seen any data on enhanced subjects and no reason to believe AAS does not simultaneously increase MPS efficiency AND increase its maximum. So why would you eat according to the science on a natural lifter?

In addition, there should pretty much never be a choice made between carbs and protein. The idea of calorie limiting with varied macro splits is a scientific one, not an in application one.

The fact remains, supplemented by some good work being done by a few in this space, that bodybuilding guidance is largely anecdotal but also extremely easily correlated. There’s a reason you see, for the most part, the biggest guys on the planet eating “excess” protein primarily from whole food sources.. And it’s not because we’re too dumb to read papers.

 

[dashriprock]

If you’re going to look for hard scientific evidence to support every decision you make in a bodybuilding endeavor you’re going to have a pretty poor time.

thank you for taking the time to reply.

I get told "you don't need to do that, read this" I want to respond and can't outside of the people I want to look like do this so I'm going to.

 

[TexasT]

Wow! Are you a Miloš Šarčev disciple or something? I remember when he was eating 600 grams of protein a day in the 90’s and he’s a little dude. He claims that his kidneys and liver are just fine, too. Good on him.

On Fouad’s pod Iain Valliere and James Hollingshead mentioned before the 2021 Olympia that Patrick had them eating less than one gram of protein per lb. of body weight per day. I was shocked. If I remember correctly that was during prep and not the off-season, but I could be wrong.

Fouad is super responsive on Instagram Messenger and I asked him about it but he didn’t want to go into it. He suggested that I ask Patrick, which is fair enough.

James didn’t do well in that Olympia but Iain took 7th place. They dialed it in pretty well for certain.

 

[Rido]

There is also a discussion at a look that excess protein calories simply "disappear" or become little to nothing calorie wise.


Thermic effect of protein is higher than carbs/fat and even gluconeogenesis and de Novo lipogenesis utilizes alot of energy for simple conversion.


But you won't get much glycogen out of 100g of excess protein.

If I am hungry on a cut I will try to consume pure protein sources/fiber

 

[jJjburton]

I was told to shoot for 400g of protein, roughly 2x bw (lbs).

Then someone else said that's excessive and all I need is 1x bw and more carbs because carbs are anabolic.





What is the correct answer?

I have tried both, many times, and the best i ever looked was always when my protein was high. I have not been able to get above 350 grams a day protein consistantly, when eating 4000 cals. But when i did for a span of weeks i grew much more then when my protein was less. And i ate basically same amount of cals.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

thank you for taking the time to reply.

I get told "you don't need to do that, read this" I want to respond and can't outside of the people I want to look like do this so I'm going to.

Everyone’s an expert now because they think the study they read is the Bible. If they haven’t invested 10 years, in practice, in learning, or a combination of both, I maintain someone “knows” very little about bodybuilding.

There is no one absolute in bodybuilding but if you just stop and look around at who does it the best the trends identify themselves.

 

[Deleted member 123722]

Everyone’s an expert now because they think the study they read is the Bible. If they haven’t invested 10 years, in practice, in learning, or a combination of both, I maintain someone “knows” very little about bodybuilding.

There is no one absolute in bodybuilding but if you just stop and look around at who does it the best the trends identify themselves.

One thing I'll see the science folks say is during a bulk it doesn't matter so much, but during a cut, they recommend a bit higher from around 1.2.

What's your take Mac?

 

[Mac11wildcat]

One thing I'll see the science folks say is during a bulk it doesn't matter so much, but during a cut, they recommend a bit higher from around 1.2.

What's your take Mac?

I am generally for upping protein in a deficit. And this can be done without changing overall cals in many cases by balancing carbs removed with some additional protein and fats.

But I am a high protein guy. I've been doing 1.5-2g/lb pretty faithfully for 4-5 years now with 1.5-1.75 being offseason and closer to 2 being mid to late prep.

 

[girachio]

In my opinion, it depends on your calorie intake.

We all know that calorie deficit causes weight loss. There are a few factors that determine what weight you’re losing (fat, muscle, or water).

Now, being on gear significantly decreases the chance of muscle loss regardless. But the best way to lose fat while retaining muscle is to set a moderate/aggressive deficit, eat AT LEAST 1g per lb of protein (i prefer 1.5-2), and do some cardio.

Water weight I’ve closely tied to carb intake in my experience. My most recent cut had me doing a CKD diet and i lost all “puffiness” within 1 week. Granted, my glycogen and pumps weren’t as good, but I lost like 5 pounds of water in a week. Give low carb a try — that’s what all the guys like Arnold were doing in the 70s to stay shredded year round.

Hope that helped

 

[Fat]

When using androgens you require less protein not more.

I would aim for 1.6g - 1.8g protein per kg and split that across 3 to 4 meals.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

When using androgens you require less protein not more.

I would aim for 1.6g - 1.8g protein per kg and split that across 3 to 4 meals.

On what basis? This assumes all AAS can do is improve MPS efficiency in utilizing protein. Why is it also not requiring more nutrients relative to natural if MPS is essentially switched on all the time? You're HARD pressed to find any big (and when I say big I usually mean the biggest, IE IFBB pros) eating LESS protein on gear than when they were natty relative to body mass..especially when protein sparing carbs become more and more scarce.

Also, 3-4 meals...yeah no.

 

[Fat]

What's your proof? This assumes all AAS can do is improve MPS efficiency in utilizing protein. Why is it also not requiring more nutrients relative to natural if MPS is essentially switched on all the time? You're HARD pressed to find any big (and when I say big I usually mean the biggest, IE IFBB pros) eating LESS protein on gear than when they were natty relative to body mass..

Also, 3-4 meals...yeah no.

I have no proof but the leading experts on protein metabolism have said this.

Please do your research

for example

250lbs (113kg) bodybuilder should consume around 205g of protein split into 3/4 meals. That is plenty of protein.

Regarding 3-4 meals it is proven that there is no advantage doing more than that if are you able to eat enough. The only reason you may want more meals is if you can't eat enough calories within 3-4 meals due to appetite/digestion issues.

You can do what you want but it is really not necessary. Your advice is outdated.

I would avoid listening or emulating IFBB pro's. They rarely know what they're talking about. They also have hidden agenda's to sell you supplements.

 

[Rido]

Let's say the ifbb pros don't know what's going on. But their coaches do and set their regimen.

 

[Fat]

View: https://youtu.be/RQEXQFrBUy0



View: https://youtu.be/CFi4skFarI0

 

[freakyjacked29]

Depending what’s used but

t3
protein turnover and protein breakdown is much higher


anabolics
protein synthesis nitrogen retention

hgh
collagen synthesis elevated protein is part of that collagen production

insulin
nutrient used more efficiently amino acids carbohydrates

No brainier
I’d firstly have my protein on the higher side with my carbs fitting around my calories intake then fats in fitting my calories intake pufa omega monos

 

[Mac11wildcat]

I have no proof but the leading experts on protein metabolism have said this.

Please do your research

for example

250lbs (113kg) bodybuilder should consume around 205g of protein split into 3/4 meals. That is plenty of protein.

Regarding 3-4 meals it is proven that there is no advantage doing more than that if are you able to eat enough. The only reason you may want more meals is if you can't eat enough calories within 3-4 meals due to appetite/digestion issues.

You can do what you want but it is really not necessary. Your advice is outdated.

I would avoid listening or emulating IFBB pro's. They rarely know what they're talking about. They also have hidden agenda's to sell you supplements.

Do your research. Love that. If you're somebody who operates strictly by study outcome I already know you're not a valuable source of information. There are near ZERO viable studies conducted on AAS enhanced athletes where proper controls AND study conditions are used.

Im the IFBB pro with no supps to sell and who knows what's going on because I can balance study data with real world outcomes. Spend some more time in the trenches and less being condescending.