what do u guys think about the carb blocker supps

[tonyton]

I just bought a suppliment that supposedly lessens the effects of carbohydrates on your slin levels..what do ya think?
crap or not...I mean its got vanadyl in it so it cant be all that bad
its called carb cutter by phase 2

 

[tonyton]

If it claims to prevent carb digestion, then be observant. Do you have horrible gas? Do you poop out your carbs undigested?

I think these supplements have been shown to work in vitro, but are worthless in vivo. Translation? They don't do anything. Just don't eat the carbs.

I was just going to use it on my cheat day...sunday...pasta day....we will see if it makes a diff...thnks for the reply

 

[TRIBOL1]

carbs blockers dont work in my oppinion. why would you want to block carbs anyway? ideally you should only be having carbs PWO and PPWO, and you need these carbs to help replenish your glyceron (SP?) stores.

a good sup to use though, is r-ala and biotin, what it does is shuttles the carbs straight into the muscle cells and away from your adipose cells. its been proven as well.

TrIBOL

 

[tonyton]

Do you have a source on the biotin?

they say its a carb blocker but it really isnt it just lessens the spike of insinilin levels..that some complex carbs do have on your body...

 

[tonyton]

carbs blockers dont work in my oppinion. why would you want to block carbs anyway? ideally you should only be having carbs PWO and PPWO, and you need these carbs to help replenish your glyceron (SP?) stores.

a good sup to use though, is r-ala and biotin, what it does is shuttles the carbs straight into the muscle cells and away from your adipose cells. its been proven as well.

TrIBOL

boitin...cool....let me see if my guy has it

 

[esco]

you can get biotin at any vitamin/supp. place. ususally in the same section as the b vitamins.

 

[TRIBOL1]

you can get biotin at any vitamin/supp. place. ususally in the same section as the b vitamins.

yup. fast400.com has the r-ala and biotin. biotin helps the r-ala to be more effective.

TrIBOL

 

[Joker]

yup. fast400.com has the r-ala and biotin. biotin helps the r-ala to be more effective.

TrIBOL

Not the case--I have never seen anything about biotin increasing the effectiveness of lipoic acid. The reason it's in there is because they are structurally similar, and as such, when taking lipoic acid it can reduce the activity of biotin in vivo. I know there is a study out there that was done in the late nineties that did, in fact, show some reduction in biotin activity combined with ALA supplementation. But the doses of ALA used to garner this effect were excessive to the point that no human would ever (in his or her right mind) consume such an amount. And even in such cases, they were shown to be 100% reversible with simple biotin supplementation. Additionally, the reduced biotin activity did not suppress enzyme activity (i.e. pyruvate kinase) to the point of causing any notable dysfunction even without adding supplemental biotin to supra-physiologic dosages.

The reason the biotin is in there is to counteract this potential, yet improbable, threat--nothing more.

Joker

 

[TRIBOL1]

biotin helps your body use the r-ala thus making it more effective IMO but you dont really need it to make it work, id recommend it though. i will try to find some literature and references on this for the bro that asked. i have never seen any as im going with what i been reading/posts from the boards/bro's.

TrIBOL

 

[Peace Division]

Not the case--I have never seen anything about biotin increasing the effectiveness of lipoic acid. The reason it's in there is because they are structurally similar, and as such, when taking lipoic acid it can reduce the activity of biotin in vivo. I know there is a study out there that was done in the late nineties that did, in fact, show some reduction in biotin activity combined with ALA supplementation. But the doses of ALA used to garner this effect were excessive to the point that no human would ever (in his or her right mind) consume such an amount. And even in such cases, they were shown to be 100% reversible with simple biotin supplementation. Additionally, the reduced biotin activity did not suppress enzyme activity (i.e. pyruvate kinase) to the point of causing any notable dysfunction even without adding supplemental biotin to supra-physiologic dosages.

The reason the biotin is in there is to counteract this potential, yet improbable, threat--nothing more.

Joker

Not sure if this is the study you are referring to or not, but it pretty much states exactly what you said.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9278559

 

[Joker]

Not sure if this is the study you are referring to or not, but it pretty much states exactly what you said.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9278559

Good work! That is exactly the study. And my mistake--it wasn't kinase enzymes it was carboxylase enzymes. Nonetheless believe me tribol, that IS the only reason it's in there. You can search all you want but the only place you will find the theory that biotin makes the ala "work better" being propagated is on nutrition/bb boards.

Joker

 

[Diablo570]

I was just going to use it on my cheat day...sunday...pasta day....we will see if it makes a diff...thnks for the reply

Bro, if you like the taste of paste but dont want the carbs,......bear with me on this on....try some extra firm Tofu in a skillet with some butter spray and meat/fish seasoning. I made it yesterday and it was almost just like pasta, just awsome!

No carbs, no fat and 32 grams of soy (cheap protein) per package and I paid $1 for it at the store.

That was the first time I have ever had Tofu and I loved it. Going to buy a grip of Tofu at the store today while its still on sale. (Vons had it on sale-mainly a CA food chain)
Give it a try bro.
Diablo

 

[desert]

carbs blockers dont work in my oppinion. why would you want to block carbs anyway? ideally you should only be having carbs PWO and PPWO, and you need these carbs to help replenish your glyceron (SP?) stores.

a good sup to use though, is r-ala and biotin, what it does is shuttles the carbs straight into the muscle cells and away from your adipose cells. its been proven as well.

TrIBOL

I'm with ya bro. Gotta have those carbs to get you through your workouts...protein and fat just dont cut it.

 

[tonyton]

Soy is crap and is very unhealthy for you. Check out this link:

http://steroidology.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47612

And why not use a little butter instead of butter spray? The equivalent in butter would probably be like 5g of fat, if that.

soy lowers your test levels...and give u the farts!!

 

[Joker]

Soy is crap and is very unhealthy for you. Check out this link:

http://steroidology.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47612

And why not use a little butter instead of butter spray? The equivalent in butter would probably be like 5g of fat, if that.

Frosty is right on this one--I could write pages on the detriments of soy. However, fuck that butter shit too. Butter is absolute garbage and has no place in a good nutrition program. Period. Dig deeper and find out what's in animal fat and you'll learn to restrict it to a minimum in a big hurry. It goes way beyond the simple "protein, carbs, and fat" approach to nutrition and delves into the chemistry of environmental toxins (including heavy metals), pesticides, xenoestrogens, hormone and antibiotic residues, pre-formed arachidonic acid, oxalates, uric acid, and clotting factors. And remember that it takes 23lbs of milk to make one pound of butter. So it's super-concentrated with all the shit that's in the animal and has settled in it's adipose tissue. When you consume animal fat, CONGRATULATIONS! You get the full load of all that good stuff--enjoy! Use olive oil instead-it has the highest oleic acid content and healthy fat that's ideal for cooking.

Joker

 

[Joker]

Yes, it's true that animal fat contains toxins, but just about anything does nowadays. Meat does, eggs do, vegetables, fruits, grains, etc.

That's a weak argument at best. Does that mean we should throw caution to the wind and consume as much toxin as possible? Toxins settle in adipose tissue in animals and are concentrated there. Many, like PCB's (a phenolated xenoestrogen) NEVER leave; they simply accumulate. It's known as bio-accumulation and it is fact. If environmental biologists want to find out how contaminated a species is, I'll give you one guess what type of tissue is tested FIRST. In most cases, it is the ONLY tissue tested. Furthermore, I don't think you guys understand the miniscule amounts of a specific toxin that it takes to exhibit an effect in the human body. In the case of a phenolated compound like the one mentioned above, it's a NANOGRAM--a billionth of a gram or 10 (-9). That's all it takes to affect a hormonal mimic/hromonal block effect in the body.

Butter is not absolute garbage

Butter IS absolute garbage. Saturated fats are solid at room temperature. They "clot" together. You have to heat saturated fats in order to agitate the molecules sufficiently to the point that you create an entropic molecular environment. The molecules will then have more space between them, and with more space and the same number of molecules, the solid will liquefy.

In the body, at a normal temp of 98.6, your body temp is not high enough to liquefy saturated fats. The main fat in butter (and meat, for that matter) is palmitic acid. It remains in a solid state until it reaches 145 degrees F. It EASILY clots in your arteries and peripheral blood vessels which can reach the scant diameter of a few microns, especially in the brain! PERFECT for optimal wellness, human health, and top-notch athletic performance.

The reason is humans are designed to live on animal fats, not vegetable for fruit fats.

Really? Says who? I would like to see something concrete besides conjecture or strong opinion on your part to support that argument. No pseudo-science allowed.

For example, plant fats do not contain EPA or DHA, two vital fats that are required. They also do not contain DGLA needed for series 1 prostaglandins or AA needed for series 2 prostaglandins. They require a conversion pathway that is dependant on enzymes to make the conversion, but guess what? The pathway is supported by saturated fat and excess fats such as oleic acid in olive oil as well as excess omega-6 found in many plant fats will inhibit these pathways.

NEWS FLASH: ALMOST ALL OMEGA-6 FATS AND OMEGA-3 FATS (EXCEPT THE OMEGA 3'S FROM FISH OILS) COME FROM VEGETABLE OILS--FACT. MEAT AND DAIRY PRODUCTS CONTAIN VERY LITTLE ESSENTIAL FATS--FACT.

Fish oils contain both EPA and DHA, true. And contrary to what I have seen spewed forth by many, the best place to get them is not from a highly-processed (and they ARE highly processed) fish oil supplement. It's from eating FRESH fish. And I will dig out plenty of references to back that up if you like.

But saturated fat is NOT essential. The only fats that are essential are linoleic and alpha-linolenic acid. All the saturated fat you need can be made at will. It can be used to make specialized phospholipids that form cell membranes, for example, but not much is needed for that purpose. Additionally consumed saturated fat will be used for one purpose--fuel. And shitty fuel at that. Next time you're at the gas station, ask the attendant to fill you up with the dirtiest, least energy producing, sludge-manufacturing gunk they have.

Now as far as DGLA is concerned, preformed omega-6's in, for example, EPO and borage oil are converted via the elongase enzyme to DGLA. Saturated fats DO NOT support this conversion in any way, shape, or form. And I defy you to show me that they do. Please provide a reference. Furthermore, I also ask that you reference the statement that, "excess fats such as oleic acid in olive oil as well as excess omega-6 found in many plant fats will inhibit these pathways." I do have a referenced statement you might find interesting: The saturated fat in meat inhibits the delta-6-desaturase enzyme required for conversion of both omega-3 and omega-6 EFA's.
(Colgan, M. ESSENTIAL FATS, Vancouver: Apple Publishing, 1998)
Now don't get me wrong--it's slick how you slipped that "excess" in there. I do agree that consuming too much omega-6 in lieu of omega-3 will potentiate the propensity for the pathway to flow to AA via delta-5-desaturase and pro-inflammatory series 2 prostaglandins, but you seem to think that's a good thing. The bottom line is that you can't get away with eating a shitload of crappy fat of ANY type and supplement with EFA's and think you're doing your body good. Eat the good fats and ditch the crap. Isn't that logical?

Animal fat is supportive of proper testosterone levels in men, as well as numerous other hormones.

Once again I'm sorry. I can't just take your word for it. I need to see something to support this. Considering how much xenoestrogen (among other endocrine-gland damaging compounds) is in animal adipose tissue, I have a very hard time with this.

I don't know why you seem to think that arachidonic acid is bad. Perhaps because it's used for series 2 prostaglandins? That does not make it bad, especially when you NEED arachidonic acid and series 2 prostaglandins. The inflammitory process in the body is vital. That's like saying cortisol is only bad. It's not - it's vital to our survival.

The high animal protein/animal fat content of western diets loads your body up with preformed AA, the direct precursor to pro-inflammatory E2. BBer's/PLer's have it even worse for three reasons:

1. They, for the most part, eat even HIGHER amounts of animal protein and animal fat than the average couch potato thereby increasing the AA burden.

2. Lifting and intense exercise in general increases E2 production.

3. SURPRISE! E2 is CATABOLIC to muscle tissue. High levels of E2 consistently produce muscle degredation. It is a VALID and, therefore, REPEATABLE process.

Athletes have higher levels of circulating E2 in the blood. It keeps them on the precipice of inflammation and muscle loss. And it's not at all like saying cortisol is bad. Cortisol IS vital, but I sure as fuck ain't going to do what I can to raise it through the roof! Likewise, inflammation is an immune response and a good thing. Chronic low-grade and/or high-grade inflammation is destructive, plain and simple. And it runs counter to undertaking an intelligent protocol to pack on high-quality muscle.

Oxalic acid is found in many plant products, such as raspberries, tea, spinach, and more. Should we not eat those foods as well?

Dependent on your prevailing blood acidity, you may have to abstain form acid-forming/acid containing foods. Optimal wellness can be obtained by maintaining an 80/20 alkaline/acid balance. When you shift the blood ph from alkaline to acid, you open the door to almost all degenerative processes, including rheumatoidal conditions, auto-immune diseases, and cancer, just to name a few little ones. Blood Ph is a MAJOR cog in the "health wheel." And I guess it's a matter of assessing your diet to find out where you stand when it comes to blood ph. Most people don't and pay the price in some shape or form.

Did you know a high intake of polyunsaturated fats will increase uric acid levels in the body?

It's not that simple. It depends on your initial balance and the dietary sources you choose to obtain them. And quantify high--relative to???

Milk is mostly water, so saying it take 23 lbs of it to make one pound of butter does not mean much. All it means is there is 1 lb of butter in that much milk. Milk does no come from adipose tissue...it is produced for the sole purpose of milk.

Hmm....interesting inverted rationale, but you missed the point. Once again I could write pages on the shit that is in milk. That's the point. And It's also laden with animal fat. They don't use skim milk to make butter, bro. Milk is bad enough from an environmental toxin standpoint. Now we're going to super-concentrate it and call it good? Please. Do some research on milk--seriously Frosty, I want you to. You're eyes will be opened. And your last statement, "it is produced for the sole purpose of milk", is also incorrect. Cow's milk is a hormone and nutrient delivery system SPECIFIC to that species. It is intended to take a little cow, and make it a big cow. Last time I looked, human beings didn't look like cows, but they're starting to now! We're the only animal that drinks another animal's milk, and the only animal that drinks milk into adulthood (hence the word "weaning"). Man, I coould go off on this topic but I don't have the time or the patience. Let's just say what you think is normal (consuming milk and dairy products) is far from it. It's usual; and people indiscriminantly use those two words interchangably. Milk for health? LOL! The #1 food allergen in the world--75% of the world's population allergic and the most of the rest sensitive to the strong lectins therein. The milk industry should be congratulated for a job well done duping many into thinking this a a healthy product.

Olive oil is also not ideal for cooking since it's a monounsaturated fat. Saturated fats such as coconut oil are closer to ideal.

Basic chemistry brotha! Heat resistance is measured by oleic acid content. The higher the oleic acid content, the higher the heat resistance. Olive oil, far and away, has the highest oleic acid content. Case Closed.

You cannot go against evolution. We've evolved on animal fats and proteins along with some plants to supplement the diet. We are not designed to live on plant products. Plain and simple.

I'm a Creationist, not an Evolutionist. And I'm not a caveman so I don't eat purported "caveman" diets that do not mimic current physiologic or environmental conditions in any way. And did you know that the plants that supplemented the diet were for the addition of dietary fats unattainable through consumption of meats? And if I followed your logic, then......shouldn't all vegetarians be dead? Yet by consuming a vegeterian diet they somehow manage to extend both maximum and average lifespan and suffer from less degenerative disease. Even though I could never be one, I can't deny the benefits--nor should you.

Just go to the organic store if you're so worried about all the toxins from standard animal products. No antibiotics, no hormones, etc.

That's a happy story, but it doesn't take into account vaccines, toxins inherent in feed, the environment, and toxins generated through the animals' normal metabolic processes. It all goes into the fat, and man being at the top of the food chain (bio-accumulation).....well, you know the rest.

Have a nice (low saturated-fat) day!

Joker

 

[Joker]

Ok, I don't have time to respond to all of your post right now as it's late, but I wanted to address this paragraph at least because it was especially bothersome to me.

First off, I don't know what to say to the creationist thing. Humans were monkeys until they started eating animal protein and fat, which also happens to be rich in cholesterol. The human brain is also very high in fat, protein, and cholesterol. It's required for our complex nervous systems. We've evolved and adapted based on animal products, and you're not much different than the way people were during the ice age 10,000 or so years ago, in which time I guarantee animal products were the majority if not all of the diet.

And to say that the consumption of supplemental fats was NEEDED because those fats were unattainable via a meat only diet clearly ignores the prostaglandin pathways. All the required fats (yes, even those for series 1 prostaglandins) can be attained through animal products. Liver and other organ meats have DGLA, as well as AA. Eggs, fish, and to a lesser extent other animal fats contain EPA and DHA. All the required fats were absolutely able to be met via animal products.

Should all vegetarians be dead? The body can handle a tremendous amount of stress and will do its best to adapt. The real test is not about the individual, but the test of that type of diet to support many generations. If there is proof that a vegan diet on a large scale can support 5 or more generations then I'd like to see it. History has shown that consumption of animal products has supported tens of thousands of generations.

Also, as to increased life span and less degenerative disease of vegetarians, that is quite a simplistic and incorrect observation to make. You cannot say that "they eat less animal products and have a slightly higher lifespan so therefore animal products are bad for you." Vegetarians are also less likely to smoke, drink, be sedentary, and just generally they are more likely to follow a healthy lifestyle than the average person. No conclusions can be brought from that.

I will agree that the toxic burdon is much higher on us than it was on caveman. This is where supplemental antioxidants (as well as vegetable juicing) can really come in handy. Also, the use of specific plants and other supplements to aid in the detox process is a good idea. You get toxins from animal foods, plant foods, the air you breath, the soaps you use, the water you drink, the deoderant you use, the toothepaste you use, the electronics in your house, etc, etc. I think you get the idea.

BTW, I know where my milk comes from. There are none of the foreign things in it you mentioned. Raw milk from cows out eating grass. I've even helped milk the cows.

More later....

Don't even bother. I've read many of your posts on this issue and we have diametrical views on nutrition, to say the least. I'm not going to get into a he said, she said debate. We'll never change each other's minds and it'll go round and round like a dog chasing his tail, so you win. But I will comment on 2 things where you DEFINITELY took too much liberty, and I say this all in good humor:

1. "Humans were monkeys until they started eating animal protein and fat, which also happens to be rich in cholesterol."

LOL! If you say so. You may have been a monkey, but not me my man!

2. "BTW, I know where my milk comes from. There are none of the foreign things in it you mentioned. Raw milk from cows out eating grass. I've even helped milk the cows."

You still don't look like a cow to me!

Joker

 

[Joker]

Frosty, you beat the straw man to death. And I already told you I won't waste any more time in a debate with you on this topic. It's tiresome. All I can say is you have a truly unique viewpoint. You still either missed my main points, were outright wrong, didn't understand them correctly, or just chose to ignore them. You did sound good though. Anyway, I already told you--you win. These debates are far too labor-intensive for me. Have a nice day!

Joker

 

[Joker]

I have no interest in changing your mind. I do have an interest in the people reading getting correct information.

Me too, that's why I posted it. But as we all know, only your information is correct. You may resume your post as Lord of the Nutrition Forum. LOL

 

[Diablo570]

Soy is crap and is very unhealthy for you


LMAO!!! Do you take steroids, cause I know those arent GOOD for you.
Im not saying roids are dangerous (unless your a fucking idiot), they're just not GOOD for you. I got high blood pressure, acne, some fascia problem in my shin area, and a big ass.
Throw in some soy protein and Im as good as DEAD! LOL!!!

J/K bro, but you get my point?
Soy protein is the least of my worries, especially since I live with two smokers and drive in traffic jammed freeways dodging accidents.
Diablo