What is estrogen's role in converting HGH to igf-1?

[BigTomJ]

Edited out Double post

 

[BigTomJ]

Are Kurt and Todd the gurus or what? lol. Jesus it’s like a sewing circle in here. There’s not much controversy if you’re off YouTube

Pretty much this bellow. I don't buy into "gurus" but Kurt brings up some interesting topics and discussions.
And he doesn't appear emotionally attached to his conclusions, he regularly admits when he doesn't know something or there isn't much data in a matter.

Kurt is a PhD candidate in endocrinology and is focusing his work specifically on performance enhancing drugs. I have a great deal of respect for his opinions. Todd Lee is a medical doctor and an IFBB pro. I have less respect for his opinions, but he's entertaining nonetheless.

 

[iris]

You seem so scared of typeII in the way you write, relax budy

Why this again and again?
He is recognising and engaging with someone’s expertise on this matter.
So when @BigTomJ reaches out for information, all you got and highlighted was his statement he is not "an expert in the matter".
Then you make fun of him for simply acknowledging the feedback he received.
So, I asked you what you write on Meso and you told me you have many threads with which people interact on an daily basis.
Is that the way you treat them? With contempt and derision?
If you are getting this thrown back at you, it's because people see this is the way you operate, by default.
This is also disrespectful to TypeII, who is an expert with regards to this, unless you think otherwise.

 

[Deleted member 59947]

Why this again and again?
He is recognising and engaging with someone’s expertise on this matter.
So when @BigTomJ reaches out for information, all you got and highlighted was his statement he is not "an expert in the matter".
Then you make fun of him for simply acknowledging the feedback he received.
So, I asked you what you write on Meso and you told me you have many threads with which people interact on an daily basis.
Is that the way you treat them? With contempt and derision?
If you are getting this thrown back at you, it's because people see this is the way you operate, by default.
This is also disrespectful to TypeII, who is an expert with regards to this, unless you think otherwise.

You still haven't found my threads, Iris, it seems

 

[BigTomJ]

You still haven't found my threads, Iris, it seems

no one gives a fuck about your threads.
We all see plenty of your drivel in the current threads you post in.

No one gives a fuck what stale, rancid shit you posted years ago.

 

[sbtr12]

You seem so scared of typeII in the way you write, relax budy

@Type-IIx knows his shit and he doesn't get emotional in his responses, type nonsense blanket statements or resort to junior high level insults when people disagree with him.

Your boy is trying but he has a long ways to go. He really needs to work on his delivery.

Also, please cut him some slack because having him actually admit he is not an expert on a subject is a significant baby step.

All he has to do though is read through a few more expert responses from random sources, read through a few more pubmed articles, agree with the majority opinion and then voila, he will be an expert. Easy PZ.

 

[BigTomJ]

@Type-IIx knows his shit and he doesn't get emotional in his responses, type nonsense blanket statements or resort to junior high level insults when people disagree with him.

Your boy is trying but he has a long ways to go. He really needs to work on his delivery.

Also, please cut him some slack because having him actually admit he is not an expert on a subject is a significant baby step.

All he has to do though is read through a few more expert responses from random sources, read through a few more pubmed articles, agree with the majority opinion and then voila, he will be an expert. Easy PZ.

thank you for your continued contribution of literally nothing to yet another thread @lifter6973 @mass gain

 

[Type-IIx]

Nah they’re both pretty good. I was impressed by Kurt Havens’ work, even with some errata, referred to but not published, in a YouTube video about Primo and Mast; AI stuff. It’s quite cool if true that that is the focus of his academic study.

It’s just funny how transparent it is that this is a manufactured disagreement between partners to drive revenue and nobody seems to notice!

 

[Type-IIx]

Fully agree


That sounds about right to me as well and from what ive seen with my own bloodwork and experiences


Is it solely the lack of downregulation with no other interaction? Weve seen individuals showing a parabolic increase in serum IGF-1 scores seemingly in direct coloration to total estrogens, even without the use of an AI as an additional variable.

is it possible that, simply by allowing more systemic serum e2 allows for more saturation of the ER, and thus less serum IGF-1 being bound to the ER resulting in it appearing to be higher in bloodwork?


This article has some information about IGF-1/estrogen relationship mainly in the subject of breast cancer.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022316622150133#bib9

Role of insulin-like growth factors and the type I insulin-like growth factor receptor in the estrogen-stimulated proliferation of human breast cancer cells.

Estrogen sensitizes the MCF-7 estrogen-responsive breast cancer cell line to the mitogenic effect of insulin and the insulin-like growth factors (IGFs…

www.sciencedirect.com

Im very far from an expert and this is still a subject im reading on, but it seems like there is more to the relationship between e2/ER/IGF-1/IGFR.

interested in your thoughts

It’s interesting because I haven’t delved into that topic besides the known cross-talk between AR and IGF-I, as well as the laundry list of compounds that have bimodal interactions with AR & ER. Basically, the two receptors have similar enough homology that I’m not surprised. Thanks for this, I am going to dig deeper on the topic and hadn’t really been aware of it.

 

[Type-IIx]

I

I'm not sure their opinions are in agreement. Todd Lee has suggested that running e2 higher than the reference range has benefits to IGF-1 conversion, which is based on his understanding of the mechanism of action. Seems like conjecture to me. Kurt Havens explicitly recommends keep e2 in the top of the reference range and has said to me that there's no research to support Dr. Lee's conjecture.

I'm still trying to arrive at an understanding on the topic, but my interpretation of the statements by @Type-IIx is that running it too high is counterproductive.

Your interpretation is correct. I also agree that this (purported) conjecture by Todd Lee would be fairly classified as surmise mostly unsupported, but perhaps with some basis in ER/IGF-I crosstalk that androgens probably regulate even more potently. If you follow that thought through you arrive to a place that comports with the evidence that more AAS is better per versus more E2, and what needs to be titrated is AI dose — or even, at certain doses/concentrations, preference for a modern SERM.

 

[BigTomJ]

It’s interesting because I haven’t delved into that topic besides the known cross-talk between AR and IGF-I, as well as the laundry list of compounds that have bimodal interactions with AR & ER. Basically, the two receptors have similar enough homology that I’m not surprised. Thanks for this, I am going to dig deeper on the topic and hadn’t really been aware of it.

Cant wait for the next Meso article on the subject lmao

 

[Type-IIx]

Cant wait for the next Meso article on the subject lmao

It very well could be one! It’s conversations like this that are the genesis for most of my articles!

 

[Type-IIx]

Reminds me, I need to send @Millard at least one new article this weekend. Also, I need to article-ify (it’s a word!) notes on something of wide or intense interest for News Feed

I have put up a lil’ Dropbox of sorts for raw notes I have on topics people request help with: Pruned Type-IIx Dropbox — these are usually esoteric or atypical content but material i took interest in to study, albeit briefly.

 

[Amgiji]

@Type-IIx knows his shit and he doesn't get emotional in his responses, type nonsense blanket statements or resort to junior high level insults when people disagree with him.

Your boy is trying but he has a long ways to go. He really needs to work on his delivery.

Also, please cut him some slack because having him actually admit he is not an expert on a subject is a significant baby step.

All he has to do though is read through a few more expert responses from random sources, read through a few more pubmed articles, agree with the majority opinion and then voila, he will be an expert. Easy PZ.

@Type-IIx knows his shit and he doesn't get emotional in his responses, type nonsense blanket statements or resort to junior high level insults when people disagree with him

agreed on the first half HARD disagree on the second half.

 

[Type-IIx]

@Type-IIx knows his shit and he doesn't get emotional in his responses, type nonsense blanket statements or resort to junior high level insults when people disagree with him

agreed on the first half HARD disagree on the second half.

If you may permit me to come to my own defense, I truly believe that I only resort to junior high level insults when people are being thick. There’s a difference: thick, vs. disagreement.

 

[Type-IIx]

Reminds me, I need to send @Millard at least one new article this weekend. Also, I need to article-ify (it’s a word!) notes on something of wide or intense interest for News Feed

I have put up a lil’ Dropbox of sorts for raw notes I have on topics people request help with: Pruned Type-IIx Dropbox — these are usually esoteric or atypical content but material i took interest in to study, albeit briefly.

Definition of thick: stubbornly obstinate in position despite reason

 

[BigTomJ]

It very well could be one! It’s conversations like this that are the genesis for most of my articles!

excellent! im authentically interested to read more educated discussions on the subject under the context of BB/PED's.
A lot of the relevant clinical material available that ive seen are in animal models with inconsistent findings or no proposed of acknowledged mechanism or in cancer/post menopaused women studies and their relative treatment medication studies.
And this is seemingly a fresh topic not really discussed much in depth prior. So its exciting new stuff to learn.

So we see over and over how AI use downregulates IGF-1, but then in other places see maybe there is some crosstalk/feedback directly between igf and the ER or with e2 itself. which raises questions like;
is it a parabolic feedback look through the ER, where too high introduces harsh feedback mechanisms through IGFBP1?
Is there a relation more directly with aromatase or the aromatization process?
Is there something else happening with IGF1 binding to the ER?
How do all these potential mechanisms change with exogenous GH administration?

The potential complexity brings up a lot of questions, some of which might have real practical considerations in this space.

I dont think there is any crazy biohacking sensationalist protocol to be really benefited from here, like that proposed by Dr lee, but I do personally want to gain a better understanding of these different mechanistic outcomes.

 

[Type-IIx]

excellent! im authentically interested to read more educated discussions on the subject under the context of BB/PED's.
A lot of the relevant clinical material available that ive seen are in animal models with inconsistent findings or no proposed of acknowledged mechanism or in cancer/post menopaused women studies and their relative treatment medication studies.
And this is seemingly a fresh topic not really discussed much in depth prior. So its exciting new stuff to learn.

So we see over and over how AI use downregulates IGF-1, but then in other places see maybe there is some crosstalk/feedback directly between igf and the ER or with e2 itself. which raises questions like;
is it a parabolic feedback look through the ER, where too high introduces harsh feedback mechanisms through IGFBP1?
Is there a relation more directly with aromatase or the aromatization process?
Is there something else happening with IGF1 binding to the ER?
How do all these potential mechanisms change with exogenous GH administration?

The potential complexity brings up a lot of questions, some of which might have real practical considerations in this space.

I dont think there is any crazy biohacking sensationalist protocol to be really benefited from here, like that proposed by Dr lee, but I do personally want to gain a better understanding of these different mechanistic outcomes.

Me too!

 

[BigTomJ]

If you may permit me to come to my own defense, I truly believe that I only resort to junior high level insults when people are being thick. There’s a difference: thick, vs. disagreement.

dont worry he wasnt talking about you, he was talking about me.

He keeps making new alts on every forum im a part of looking for any opportunity to make some sideways comment to me or about me in whatever threads im involved with.

hes just a man with a crush

 

[Type-IIx]

dont worry he wasnt talking about you, he was talking about me.

He keeps making new alts on every forum im a part of looking for any opportunity to make some sideways comment to me or about me in whatever threads im involved with.

hes just a man with a crush

Ah, the olllll’ cyberstalk — classic.