When/Why did training change?

[Grizzly]

Pros are very much dependant on drugs and, especially, genetics. Use the same exact cycle as Ronnie and, chances are, you'll look nothing like him. They'll grow regardless of how well, or how shitty, they train.

It's one thing to produce results for yourself. It's another thing entirely to be able to produce results, using your methodology, in another. This is why JS is revered around here. Not only can he, himself, perform amazing feats of strength(which could just be because of his genetic ability) but he is able to reproduce those same results in others(which proves it has a little more to do with his methods than his genetics).

 

[kenneth]

if you combine what madcow and grizzly said together, it pretty much covers the whole truth. I've only learned to give another style of training other than the single factor theory a shot about 6 months ago, not even.. before that, my mind thought was the same as the many here who just can't seem to grasp the idea of it. You run into it here, and even just as much in person.. people are stubborn and just don't want to accept the fact that there's, lets just say, a BETTER WAY. Breaking through that whole thing was the best damn thing I ever did. I've been 5x5'ing for a little while now and loving every last bit of it.

 

[Madcow2]

It's not even just a different or better way - dual factor is absolutely and totally dominant around the world. This is the way the world trains its athletes and they've been doing it for a long time (plus let's not ignore the fact that there is actually a lot of evidence and findings that confirm it). BBers are cutting edge on drugs and nutrition but most have never even heard of dual factor theory. Shit, they can't even name a good book on training (Arnold's Encycl is an embarrasment to training). One thing to disagree for whatever reason but to have not even heard of it...BBers and general gym members are so ignorant of training they don't even realize that they are alone around the campfire with the exception of a few HIT coaches who just need a good kick in the balls. Diet and drugs are all about the response, weighttraining is the stimulus yet this knowledge has curiously fallen by the wayside for a long time now. Drugs have been used to cover this up because they magnify a shitty stimulus that would never work for a natural trainee to the point where gains can be made. Look at the programs of the 1980's machine trained high repping BBers. No squats or deads at all and they looked fabulous. That's really all the evidence that one needs and a good reason why new trainees fail to make solid gains following the routines of the pros. The pros would still be just another plateaued guy in the gym if their drugs were taken away, why do you think most got on them in the first place. Unfortunately, trainees who would prefer not to live on drugs have access only to programs that essentially require drugs to make gains. Pathetic, but this is the state of things.

 

[MANWHORE]

I still say go with lunges over squats

 

[Who's Victor Martinez?]

I still say go with lunges over squats

I always use lunges to isolate hamstrings (before using lying or sitting curls or the like). I like to do them in place on the smith machine. You do walking? DBs?

 

[Madcow2]

Who's VM - I'm going to throw out a few things.

Preface: Manwhore is joking when suggesting lunges. I kind of get the feeling you aren't in your response but if you were just joking about isolating your hamstrings before the curl machine and using the smith just disregard. If I assume joke and I laugh, I offend if the statement was serious. If I assume serious and you were joking, I offend also. A no-win situation for me so I'll just take the angle to add value and if I'm wrong about the nature of the joke maybe someone else comes accross it and gets something out of it.

1) Isolation as a rule almost always sucks for general training. The exercises that make you the biggest and pile the most muscle on your frame all work their magic by NOT isolating but stressing the system as a whole. So, good for rehab or addressing a very specific weakness but in nearly every case horrendous for anyone trying to get bigger, stronger, or perform better.

2) The smith machine always sucks. You would do well to never touch one again. I'd even keep a 5' margin just to make sure I didn't accidentally brush against it.

 

[Who's Victor Martinez?]

Oh, ok. No I wasn't joking. And I love the Smith, for all kinds of reasons. Thanks for your opinion though.

 

[Bob Smith]

Oh, ok. No I wasn't joking. And I love the Smith, for all kinds of reasons. Thanks for your opinion though.

The Smith is a joke and no serious strength or performance athlete uses one, other than to hold their towel.

For hamstrings, you would be much better off with SLDLs or RDLs.

 

[Girth]

I somewhat hate touching this thread, moreso for the knowing that I'll be bumping it back to the top, than anthing else. But it seems as though the emotions have settled and thus it may be safe.

A very good question was posed in the first post of this thread. It appeared to be answered on the first page. The above defense of training styles is unnecessary. Does anyone in this discussion make money by selling a certain training "system", or gym equipment (smith machine)equipment? My assumption is no. So why the verbal infomercials?

Who's VM - If you've found what works for you....great! Stick with it. The original poster didn't ask what was best, he just asked why a shift in popular training lore had occurred.

Others - You've done your best to present your case to the individual referenced above. He has chosen to walk his path and his mind is made. May he flourish or flounder on his own.

 

[Who's Victor Martinez?]

The Smith is a joke and no serious strength or performance athlete uses one, other than to hold their towel.

For hamstrings, you would be much better off with SLDLs or RDLs.

The Smith is definetely not a joke for me. Apparently it is for you guys. Maybe I should state it like a fact, like you guys always do. Smith fuckin' rocks, period.

And I agree with the deadlifts. I do those as well and they work quite well. Am I the only person that switches shit up here? I get the feeling everyone does the same thing over...and over.....and over.......and over...*fades out*

I just get bored too easily. I spice stuff up. One of my favorite things about training is just experimenting. I'll make weird exercises on equipment that doesn't work that particular bodypart. Whatever I feel getting the blood in there...

 

[CyniQ]

BBers and general gym members are so ignorant of training they don't even realize that they are alone around the campfire with

Uh. What campfire?? I didn't get the memo on the campfire...

Will it improve my smith machine lunges???

 

[Who's Victor Martinez?]

I'm glad I have a fantastic hamstring/quad separation. People ask me how. I tell the right way to get it. Oh wait, no I don't. Since I'm not God, and I don't know everything, I tell them what works for me, but that they should give everything a shot and see how that makes them feel. They usually take that well.

 

[Bob Smith]

I just get bored too easily. I spice stuff up. One of my favorite things about training is just experimenting.

VM, this is key in our discussion. What is most effective and what are enjoyable are often two different things. Most people in this thread were saying what is most effective, without taking into consideration that some people need more variation in their programs, not because of efficacy issues but rather because of boredom. That, IMO, is a legitimate reason for switching programs, even if it means possibly stagnating or regressing for a little while. In that regard, you arent wrong in this conversation, you just have a different perspective on the issue. For me, I like routine and consistency in my programs. I do switch things up every now and then, but ultimately I stick with the same thing. If preventing boredom is important to you, then I think you are on the right track.

 

[Madcow2]

Christ man. Your own version of the human body is not so unique. There is a reason that the whole body of the world's best coachs and trainers avoid the smith for all of their athletes. You will never ever hear one say, "Yeah it blows for everyone else and it is fundementally flawed in so many fucking ways, but for this one guy I have - it's just a great machine."

You seem to be under the impression that everyone's body is so different that the variation in what works and what doesn't between them is night and day. However, that's just not the case. There are certainly some differences but we aren't talking enough to make a flawed machine shitty for nearly everyone great for a small portion.

Your whole deal is based on "well, this works for me and I know because I've tried a lot of stuff." Well, a lot of BBers seem to think cable crossovers and other various mutant exercise variations will help them grow their inner chest and build that clevage area. They firmly believe this and they "know" it because they've "tried it" and "it worked for them." Unfortunately none of that changes the facts that there is no inner chest muscle and you can't activate or grow part of a muscle - so it's all bullshit and in complete disagreement with anatomy 101. Yet they continue to hold their beliefs and convictions.

This is where you are. You don't even realize that just about anyone who knows training is going to read your posts and instantly conclude that you have no idea what you are talking about. I figured I might take the time to at least steer you in the direction where the whole educated training world lives and where the people are who actually earn a living coaching Div1, Pro, and Oly athletes around the world. Where people actually know how to design programs that don't require a lot of drugs just to see gains.

However, there is something you should realize and this likely will not drive the point home but I'll put it one more way - if you had in your signature the statement "I truly and honestly believe the smith machine to be a valuable tool for hypertrophy," I would have never ever responded because I'd have known in advance that the gap was too great to cross. If you would please add that phrase it would really help serve as a warning beacon to every serious student or training practitioner. This will serve two purposes. 1) We won't waste our time 2) You will be much happier because the remaining people won't know enough to disagree with you and they won't question your contention that you know what you are doing.

Boy did Girth call it. I should have listened.

 

[Who's Victor Martinez?]

Madcow- What do you think you are so godamn speical for? Honestly, I want to know. What is it? Do you just feel that you are so righteously badass, as to naturally shadow everyone else? Do you realize that Bob Smith wrote a calm post, and your ego splatterd all over your post. I'm suprised you can walk around with such a big fuckin' head. Now I realize the fact you get off on hearing your own voice, but I'm curious as to how you know me so well. You're just some guy sitting behind the computer like me. Now everyone else may suck your dick just because you use some big words, but I'm no rollover. Do I listen to advice?? Of course! Am I willing to experiment? Yes! Do I have opinions, also? Absolutely! So don't think you can run over me just because. Strength coaches? Athletic coaches? Goodjob madcow. Did I ever refute that straight barbell built more strengh and mass than the smith? Did I ever refute that the smith pretty much takes out stabilizing and synergist muscles? Did you know why I use smith sometimes? Did you bother to ask? You must always work out with a partner. I often don't. And when I don't have a spotter, sir, do you know what the safe thing to do is? Use a smith b/c if you took time to look (instead of listening to your deified strength coaches), they have pistons. If I get stuck, I can hook it. I can feel WAY more blood enter my hams when I do lunges there, than anywhere else. So I do them sometimes. And sometimes I don't. Sometimes I do the almighty Olympic lifts, and leave it at that. But what I know, and what you don't, is where I can feel the muscles working. And I try everything. Apparently you think I just fell off the turnip truck myself and I am a beginner. I got news for ya buddy. That ain't the case. Beleive it or not I know how to workout myself. I was doing it (and it was working!) long before the almighty madcow came into the picture. Now you may have some knowledge. I don't doubt that. I never did. But I have some myself. I will not sit here and be disrespected like that, and be treated like some sort of ameture. All I came here to do, was spread some of my knowledge and gain some in return...to share with people who share my passion. To relish in it together. Not to be shadowed or patronized by some internet guy. I'm open to new ideas, and I act on them. But if you know so much, honestly, you don't need to be in some chat board, you need to be writing some books. Now if you don't show me some respect and common decency, and stop talking to me condescendingly like you know me and are better than me, then I'll just leave (like you even care). I just thought it would be nice and fun to share some info. But I don't need this. And the sad part is I shouldn't be explaining myself.

 

[Dschingis]

Could someone PLEASE ban Martinez? I get eyecancer at his posts. There is nothing constructive in his appearance.

 

[Madcow2]

Madcow- What do you think you are so godamn speical for? Honestly, I want to kno..

Yeah, I lost it a bit. You're right. Regardless of anything it is wrong to crap on you. I owe you that out of human decency.

For me - no workout partner. In the past decade I think I've lifted with a partner maybe for a total of 10 months all at on/off intervals. In the 5-6 years before that I had a consistent partner for 2-3 of them. I enjoy lifting with partners but timing of schedules can be difficult and I have a lot of other life things to fit in. It's a lot easier in high school or college.

As for writing books. Everything I say is basically common knowledge. Nothing different or avant about it. Any serious student of training knows all of this and a good deal more. This is just pure basics and fundementals - 100% of them will tell you the same thing. There is absolutely nothing I can add and certainly a ton I can learn from many books... Science and Practice, Supertraining, Managing the Training of Weightlifters etc.

 

[CyniQ]

where I can feel the muscles working. And I try everything. Apparently you think I just fell off the turnip truck myself and I am a beginner. I got news for ya buddy. That ain't the case. Beleive it or not I know how to workout myself. I was doing it (and it was working!) long before the almighty madcow came into the picture.

Damn. With apologies to Madcow and Girth I'm going to bump this thing again.

VM. I read Madcows posts. I didn't take it the same way you did. I actually think that he was making a concerted effort to be honest with you without offending. Wow, I just noticed that he apologized too.

I've got the feeling that you just might have pretty good genetics VM. I'm 6'-1" and have 6 3/4" wrists and 16" arms. Not big arms by any means but bigger than I have right to by the 2.3 rule. I know what it means to be a hardgainer and a lot of these other guys do too. The reason most of us are here is to try to overcome our genetic inadequacies. Either thru refined nutrition and training, or drugs. A lot of different training styles work for some people. You may be one of those people that a lot of different things work for. Understand that a guy like me who couldn't do a single pull up until he started training. Might be a little passionate about what he finally found that worked.

Jumpy ass muther...

And who's the retard with 8 posts calling for people to be banned???

 

[Who's Victor Martinez?]

I've got the feeling that you just might have pretty good genetics VM. I'm 6'-1" and have 6 3/4" wrists and 16" arms. Not big arms by any means but bigger than I have right to by the 2.3 rule. I know what it means to be a hardgainer and a lot of these other guys do too. The reason most of us are here is to try to overcome our genetic inadequacies. Either thru refined nutrition and training, or drugs. A lot of different training styles work for some people. You may be one of those people that a lot of different things work for. Understand that a guy like me who couldn't do a single pull up until he started training. Might be a little passionate about what he finally found that worked.

QUOTE]

That sounds like pretty good sized arms. You haven't taken anything either. Neither have I, but I haven't measured my arms in a while. I am one of those people that a lot of different things work, but my genetics suck balls, lol. I keep thinking I would be bigger I woud be bigger I would bigger. Perhaps I'm just impatient. But yeah, I like to change it up. It's always worked. I do the basics that everybody knows, and have mentioned, but do different stuff too. Like I don't do something weird on cables and expect to get quality mass out of that particular muscle. I just like getting the blood in there and getting more cut. Some new things I try don't work. I don't feel it in the muscle right or what not. And some basic things I don't feel properly either. One thing that I do have goin' for me, and I will brag a little, is that I have a freaky mind-muscle connection. I'm picky. I have to be in juuuuuuuuust the right position and have everything angled right, and BAM! I feel that sucker directly where I want to feel it. Boy, I love the pump!

I make sure I have a "crew" on leg day, so I can squat heavy and how I want, and not worry about using a smith. I've done chest before and close grip presses when I don't have a partner. And I use it every now and then on some things that I don't feel too comfortable doing free weight (or don't think I can go heavy enough) with- such as upright rows. My shoulders give me a little trouble sometimes. But yeah....that's that.

And I don't know who that guy is who wants me banned. I don't think he likes me though....

Peace.