Why did we settle on Push/Pull?

[RzSco]

I was just thinking about this during my Push.


Push/Pull: you are training a bunch of interfering muscle groups like chest and shoulders, so for example if you bench first you will OHP less and vice versa. Not sure if that actually means less gains for the second group or not but seems like it should.

Horizontal/Vertical: you train opposing muscle groups (eg. Bench and Rows or OHP and Pulldowns) so there is no interference and in fact the muscle you trained gets a good stretch from training its opposite in the next exercise.

To me it seems like push/pull gives a suboptimal stimulus because you are pre-exhausting the muscles with interfering exercises. But literally almost everyone does this style so it must be something I’m missing?

Is it just to avoid partially hitting muscles that are still recovering?

 

[Eddie.]

Whatever would be the first couple exercises you're gonna lose strength after that. Even if it's horizontal/vertical.

It is true in a classic PPL split you can easily neglect minor body parts if you don't structure it well. You'll see many advanced athletes starting their push training with side delts, or triceps, max out cable flies or peck deck and then proceed to actual push exercises like bench or ohp.

Priority in weaker body parts must be always number one, if you have weak delts or triceps and you insist leaving them last then it's clearly a structural mistake.

Also, many guys follow a modified PPL with adding an extra day on rotation of just training the weak parts. Let's say you want to emphasize arms, you do a arms day after leg day, you take a rest and continue the split. Or take a rest, do arms, legs, rest and continue.

There are many ways to keep all things balanced, the difficult part is first to assess which is your lagging part and then what's the optimal intensity and volume required based on your needs (age, diet, gear, stress, injuries etc).

 

[RzSco]

My shoulders are lagging and I do them first. I find chest interferes with shoulders a lot more than the other way round as well.


If you had to spend your whole day (say 8 hours) in the gym (but you are not allowed to leave) how would you structure your workout for maximum gains? Would you just do a set every hour on the basis of maximum intensity and volume for every set, or would you still do exercises back to back on the basis that short rest periods exhaust the muscle more?

 

[wp_375]

You could always switch up what you do first every workout to even out the effort...IE start with bench first one time, then start with OHP the next time .

 

[Oldhand]

I like push/pull, but it depends…

When cutting, I enjoy circuit training. Here, push/pull allows you to use a muscle group while resting a group and then switching. You can keep moving so your heart rate doesn’t drop. I would think this is good for endurance athletes too (maybe for a fighter/swimmer….idk).

If I was building a lagging muscle…. Let’s say rear delts…. I would do them first when I’m fresh and rest between sets. I think this allows you to put all you can on the weak muscles- focus and energy.

I think everyone switches their routines depending on the goal.

 

[RaddishPork]

I do a push day with rotating priority depending how I feel.

I don't think it matters too much if you already have some pre fatigue in a muscle building context. If anything, the interfering muscle groups is more stimulus and less work required. I see it as a trickle down effect. If I start with heavy chest movements, then my shoulders and triceps are already getting some 2nd hand work. Now I don't have to run 10 sets of shoulders or triceps to get the same level of fatigue as if I started the day with them. In my opinion it's actually more efficient this way.

If someone was training for strength then yeah PPL would be pretty wack. But the stimulus for growth isn't based on being able to do heavier weights. Your muscles don't know the difference between 500lbs and 200lbs. They just know when they're fatigued, they need to recover and rebuild.

That's why bodybuilders have bigger and prettier muscles than powerlifters even though they don't lift as heavy... There is some nuance to that though because most bodybuilders are still strong as shit. And when you have the luxury of working out as a full time job you can spend as much time as you want building an extremely customized plan to your needs.

That's just how I train though. I do make adjustments and sometimes I'll do like a shoulders and arms day or randomly throw in calves and other lagging groups. I'm sure someone twice my size will say I'm wrong and someone half my size will also say I'm wrong.

 

[buck]

The reason can be much the same for anything. At some time in the past the top guy started doing push/pull so others followed along. At one point long ago total body 3 days a week was more towards what most did. Volume was the thing till a guy called Dorian came along and really popularized high intensity. It had been around before that but not as popular. What works or is liked by a person tends to be what they stick with i find.

 

[dinfar1337]

I was just thinking about this during my Push.


Push/Pull: you are training a bunch of interfering muscle groups like chest and shoulders, so for example if you bench first you will OHP less and vice versa. Not sure if that actually means less gains for the second group or not but seems like it should.

Horizontal/Vertical: you train opposing muscle groups (eg. Bench and Rows or OHP and Pulldowns) so there is no interference and in fact the muscle you trained gets a good stretch from training its opposite in the next exercise.

To me it seems like push/pull gives a suboptimal stimulus because you are pre-exhausting the muscles with interfering exercises. But literally almost everyone does this style so it must be something I’m missing?

Is it just to avoid partially hitting muscles that are still recovering?

if anything, side delts & front delts + triceps is nice to do after chest because they've been warmed up by chest excerises. i can see your shoulder being fucked by bench pressing but you'll get used to it

 

[BigBamBam]

Even though I personally follow more of a Horizontal/Vertical split in my training, I don’t see anything wrong with the Push/Pull system. If you have less strength left for shoulder presses after doing bench press, that doesn’t mean your delts won’t get enough work that day. They’re already being hit through associated movements, and all that’s left is to finish them off with some targeted exercises. For example, some athletes skip direct front delt work altogether because incline bench press hits that area well enough.

Another thing is the psychological aspect on your next session. You might really want to beat your previous personal record on, say, overhead press. But if you’ve just done heavy chest presses before that, it’s pretty obvious you won’t be setting any new records on shoulder press that day

 

[dinfar1337]

Even though I personally follow more of a Horizontal/Vertical split in my training, I don’t see anything wrong with the Push/Pull system. If you have less strength left for shoulder presses after doing bench press, that doesn’t mean your delts won’t get enough work that day. They’re already being hit through associated movements, and all that’s left is to finish them off with some targeted exercises. For example, some athletes skip direct front delt work altogether because incline bench press hits that area well enough.

Another thing is the psychological aspect on your next session. You might really want to beat your previous personal record on, say, overhead press. But if you’ve just done heavy chest presses before that, it’s pretty obvious you won’t be setting any new records on shoulder press that day

i really dont get the logic of doing x sets of bench press will have you weaker on shoulder press. you are resting in between sets shoulders should have been minimally impacted and if they're hurting very much you're most likely bench pressing with very bad form.

i have absolutely not ran into training muscles as a secondary in a excerise and then getting them as the primary mover excerise after to affect it at all. if anything my lifts only been affected by too many sets in one workout or too little calories.

 

[RzSco]

Today I’m trying 3 minutes rest instead of 5 minute rest.

My OHP after bench failed at 20% lower reps than I can normally do. For me they definitely interfere very badly. It may be that my bench is slightly incline but it’s a huge amount of interference.

Also I thought ATP was meant to be back after 3 minutes so why is 5 minute rest giving me more reps on the next set? It’s not long enough to replenish any glycogen surely, am I just a slow ATP regenerator?

I have tested in the past and I think my best recovery was actually 8 minutes. Going to ten or more would actually make it worse, then after an hour or so I’d be able to max again.

This is all working to failure of course.

 

[BigBamBam]

i really dont get the logic of doing x sets of bench press will have you weaker on shoulder press. you are resting in between sets shoulders should have been minimally impacted and if they're hurting very much you're most likely bench pressing with very bad form.

i have absolutely not ran into training muscles as a secondary in a excerise and then getting them as the primary mover excerise after to affect it at all. if anything my lifts only been affected by too many sets in one workout or too little calories.

There’s a connection between bench press and shoulder press because even with good technique, bench press still uses your front delt and especially your triceps. When you switch to shoulder press after bench press, your triceps get tired and make it harder to fully straighten your arms at the end of the movement