Why do some people suggest am AI during a cycle?

[Docd187123]

I believe this is estrogen related.

And the same with deca. Prolactin isn't part of this equation brother.

 

[Docd187123]

My bad I was in a rush that day. I think this is a very good topic for discussion as I have a lot to learn and I think the community would greatly benefit with help of some other members here. You do seen very knowledgeable and open minded which is great. This is the article which led me to my beliefs.
Hyperprolactinemia and Erectile Dysfunction

That's a good study and I fully agree with it in that prolactin 100% can cause erectile dysfunction. Prolactin is secreted after an orgasm to help create the refractory period. As we all know, it's a lot harder to get hard, no pun intended lol, during this period.

 

[KingAlfred]

Because folks are largely parroting information they've seen others write on hormone message boards over the years.

AIs should not be proactively used and only in the event they are needed. Estrogen is a good thing and artificially suppressing it via AI over-reliance leads to a whole list of potential problems...

so your advice is to wait until you start getting gynochomastia then start taking an ai. Lol great advice, a lot of good that will do. Well you said don't take it unless you need it so...

 

[KingAlfred]

What AI at what dosage should I take? And how often?

I was told in a another thread to take the AIs 2 weeks after my cycle finishes. Not during the cycle.

I don't understand the reasoning behind that. A SERM after cycle is common but if you have test and dbol aromatizing into estrogen for all that time you are on cycle, why would you wait?

 

[ChestRockwell]

so your advice is to wait until you start getting gynochomastia then start taking an ai. Lol great advice, a lot of good that will do. Well you said don't take it unless you need it so...

Are you familiar with what a false dichotomy is? Because you just created a nice one...

 

[KingAlfred]

Are you familiar with what a false dichotomy is? Because you just created a nice one...

I did not since I merely restated what he said with just the information he provided in his post. I don't think that qualifies as a false dichotomy.

 

[ChestRockwell]

I did not since I merely restated what he said with just the information he provided in his post.

"He" = me.

False dichotomy - you either don't use AIs or you wait until actual fibrosis begins to start using. In other words, you suggest these are the only two options.

I'll help you out - when I say needed this does not equal wait for gynocomastia fibrosis to start occurring...

 

[KingAlfred]

"He" = me.

False dichotomy - you either don't use AIs or you wait until actual fibrosis begins to start using. In other words, you suggest these are the only two options.

I'll help you out - when I say needed this does not equal wait for gynocomastia fibrosis to start occurring...

Sorry, looked at a different quote and thought it was someone else. Well those are the only two you really left open. You didn't mention bloodwork and you can't know your estrogen level is too high until you develop physical symptoms which would be gyno. So based on what you said that's the only way your post can reasonably be interpreted. Besides how much estrogen is too much? Well that would be more than the ammount of estrogen present in your body normally while not on aas. So if you are taking aromatizing compounds you have more estrogen than you need. It may not be enough to cause physical symptoms but that depends on the individual. If I follow ypur advice in that post you are telling me don't take an AI untilI need it, which would be...? You never said. When I start developing breasts would really be my only clue unless you have some kimd of built in estrogen meter in you that I don't know about.

 

[ChestRockwell]

Sorry, looked at a different quote and thought it was someone else. Well those are the only two you really left open. You didn't mention bloodwork and you can't know your estrogen level is too high until you develop physical symptoms which would be gyno. So based on what you said that's the only way your post can reasonably be interpreted. Besides how much estrogen is too much? Well that would be more than the ammount of estrogen present in your body normally while not on aas. So if you are taking aromatizing compounds you have more estrogen than you need. It may not be enough to cause physical symptoms but that depends on the individual. If I follow ypur advice in that post you are telling me don't take an AI untilI need it, which would be...? You never said. When I start developing breasts would really be my only clue unless you have some kimd of built in estrogen meter in you that I don't know about.

Again, this post has an underlying tone of "OMG if I don't use AIs proactively then I will wake up one day with full on gynocomastia"...nothing could be further from the truth and it takes significant time for actual fibrosis to develop.

The body provides plenty of signs that A:E ratios are out of balance, and the more experienced you get, the better you become at reading your body and identifying these clues. Of course, it is very common for inexperienced individuals to mistake things like water retention for estrogen, and this is precisely what we are trying to teach folks to avoid.

I didn't mention bloodwork because serum estradiol numbers, in and of themselves, are really a meaningless data point - particularly when running supraphysiological amounts of testosterone. And even more so when additional compounds are added into the equation. This is why I sound like a broken record repeating A:E ratio over and over again...

 

[Streetracer_PB]

If you are needing AIs then you likely are either running too much gear, or have a very poorly designed blast.

Im gyno prone so if i come to my 4th week on 500mg test E and no AI it flairs up. I cant cycle without it. Every one for him self. AI used correctly keeps Estrogen at a controlled/normal level. Between bloods I guage my Estrogen from my libido.

0.5mg Adex is more than enough to keep my gyno at bay and my gains and libido going.

 

[ChestRockwell]

Im gyno prone so if i come to my 4th week on 500mg test E and no AI it flairs up. I cant cycle without it. Every one for him self. AI used correctly keeps Estrogen at a controlled/normal level. Between bloods I guage my Estrogen from my libido.

0.5mg Adex is more than enough to keep my gyno at bay and my gains and libido going.

I'm not certain if you've read the entire thread but this is precisely what I've helped folks out with. Nobody is suggesting that individuals won't have varying degrees of sensitivity to aromatization.

However, if you identify that you are one of these people then it makes little sense to start off at 500mg/week of TestE when you already know what will happen. It takes patience, and you must be methodical, but I'm very confident you could run 500mg/week of TestE sans AI if you allowed your body to acclimate to the exogenous hormones a bit more modestly...

 

[Jeremiahflex]

I'm not certain if you've read the entire thread but this is precisely what I've helped folks out with. Nobody is suggesting that individuals won't have varying degrees of sensitivity to aromatization.

However, if you identify that you are one of these people then it makes little sense to start off at 500mg/week of TestE when you already know what will happen. It takes patience, and you must be methodical, but I'm very confident you could run 500mg/week of TestE sans AI if you allowed your body to acclimate to the exogenous hormones a bit more modestly...

Do you feel there are any negative effects to running an AI unnecessarily. Can it cause harm/lack of gains. If anything as long as you don't completely tank your estro shouldn't you be okay. I'm curious

 

[ChestRockwell]

Do you feel there are any negative effects to running an AI unnecessarily. Can it cause harm/lack of gains. If anything as long as you don't completely tank your estro shouldn't you be okay. I'm curious

Yes, I absolutely do. It is one thing to use a suicidal inhibitor in an "only as needed" fashion but a completely different ballgame when you read folks setting up blast protocols proactively dosing non-suicidal inhibitors from day one and relying upon them for weeks/months at a time.

For those unaware:

Exemestane = Aromasin = Steroidal = Type One / Irreversible
Formestane = Lentaron = Steroidal = Type One / Irreversible
Anastrozole = Arimidex = Nonsteroidal = Type Two / Reversible
Letrozole = Femara = Nonsteroidal = Type Two / Reversible

And AIs have well documented adverse impacts on the human body including, but not limited to - bone metabolism/density, insulin resistance, and visceral tissue gain. For bodybuilder types, may also impact autocrine/paracrine IGF levels as well.

Effects of dehydroepiandrosterone and atamestane supplementation on frailty in elderly men. Muller M, van den Beld AW, van der Schouw YT, Grobbee DE, Lamberts SW J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2006 Oct; 91(10):3988-91

Bicalutamide and third-generation aromatase inhibitors in testotoxicosis. Lenz AM, Shulman D, Eugster EA, Rahhal S, Fuqua JS, Pescovitz OH, Lewis KA Pediatrics. 2010 Sep; 126(3):e728-33.

Effect of aromatase inhibition on bone metabolism in elderly hypogonadal men. Leder BZ, Finkelstein JS Osteoporos Int. 2005 Dec; 16(12):1487-94.

Effects of suppression of estrogen action by the p450 aromatase inhibitor letrozole on bone mineral density and bone turnover in pubertal boys. Wickman S, Kajantie E, Dunkel L J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Aug; 88(8):3785-93.

Effects of aromatase inhibition on bone mineral density and bone turnover in older men with low testosterone levels. Burnett-Bowie SA, McKay EA, Lee H, Leder BZ J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2009 Dec; 94(12):4785-92.

Aromatase Inhibition in Healthy Men Induces Insulin Resistance, Elevated Blood Pressure, and Altered Plasma Lipids, with Limited Changes in Transcript Levels in Subcutaneous Adipose Tissue Fraser W Gibb MBChB, Kerry J McInnes PhD, Ruth Andrew PhD, and Brian R Walker MBChB, MD CLINICAL - Male Reproductive Endocrinology I. June 2011, P1-335-P1-335