Injecting hgh post workout?

[ProfessorX]

He wrote: AM shots best as said by pharma company.

Now please explain how a pharma company would suggest off-label use of something that is used to cure ppl of deficiency and not lose fat or increase muscle : /

AM could be the best but sure as hell is not reccomended by Pfizer or Lilly or whatever.

recommended by Pfizer/Lilly etc (bed-time dose)

This is because it is approved by the FDA for deficiency purposes


HRT Clinic:

For those that are between their late 20’s and early 50’s, there is still a reasonable chance that your own endogenous production of hGH is still at a reasonable level. For this age group the best time to inject would be early morning ….

For those younger than mid-fifties, taking your hGH right before bed is going to end up creating a negative feedback loop, robbing you of your body’s own nightly pulse of hGH.

I believe DR. Jim posted some studies on this

Timing of injection is important for a stable IGF1 elevation to utilize both Endo/exo GH

Also, IGF1 elevates quickly.......doesn't take weeks


But I agree with you......it's about elevating IGF1 (anti-aging /bodybuilding)

So doing blood work to monitor your progress is a must

 

[ChestRockwell]

The important thing of hgh is the damn igf and it doesn't matter when you shoot it. IgF will increase with time and will
not vary much.

Again, this is a bit of a short-sighted answer. What is the use case of the individual? For example, if your goals are lipolysis then chronically elevated IGF-1 levels are counter-productive.

In fact, I can make a compelling argument that chronically elevated levels of endocrine IGF-1 are counter-productive to anabolism as well but this is likely getting beyond the scope of this thread.

And how you inject has quite an impact on systemic IGF-1 levels so saying "IgF will increase with time and will not vary much" is patently untrue.

 

[Sampei]

Again, this is a bit of a short-sighted answer. What is the use case of the individual? For example, if your goals are lipolysis then chronically elevated IGF-1 levels are counter-productive.

In fact, I can make a compelling argument that chronically elevated levels of endocrine IGF-1 are counter-productive to anabolism as well but this is likely getting beyond the scope of this thread.

And how you inject has quite an impact on systemic IGF-1 levels so saying "IgF will increase with time and will not vary much" is patently untrue.

Your IgF will be chronically elevated no matter what if you shoot hgh.

Prove me the contrary. I shoot usually 5IU before bed. No matter when I do my blood test my IgF is always around 500 on that dosage.

So even after 24h without hgh I still have elevated IgF.

You telling me that's bad for my anabolism and fat loss? : / so hgh is bad because you can't avoid high igf

 

[ChestRockwell]

Your IgF will be chronically elevated no matter what if you shoot hgh.

You are arguing a point which I never disputed?

Prove me the contrary. I shoot usually 5IU before bed. No matter when I do my blood test my IgF is always around 500 on that dosage.

Your stance is that you do the same thing and have comparable results? Well umm...yeah, this is pretty predictable and obvious. However, I'll give you a bone...what if you did 10IUs before bed in an every other day fashion, please think about ways this may impact your systemic IGF levels and let me know your thoughts as time permits.

Bonus points if you can explain why I said that "...and how you inject has quite an impact on systemic IGF-1 levels so saying "IgF will increase with time and will not vary much" is patently untrue." based upon your findings.

You telling me that's bad for my anabolism and fat loss? : / so hgh is bad because you can't avoid high igf

First of all, I have literally zero idea what your goals are, or what hormones you are using so I cannot comment at all about your stack design and whether or not it is going to work for your goals.

What I can say, is that in and of themselves, neither GH or IGF-1 are direct promoters of hypertrophy. IGF-1 largely blunts lipolysis, and GH must be used in a very specific ways to maximize the signaling pathways (STAT5b) used in lipolysis. Further reading if you are into that sort of thing...

GH induced lipolysis stimulation in 3T3-L1 adipocytes stably expressing hGHR: analysis on signaling pathway and activity of 20K hGH. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[weighted chinup]

You are arguing a point which I never disputed?



Your stance is that you do the same thing and have comparable results? Well umm...yeah, this is pretty predictable and obvious. However, I'll give you a bone...what if you did 10IUs before bed in an every other day fashion, please think about ways this may impact your systemic IGF levels and let me know your thoughts as time permits.

Bonus points if you can explain why I said that "...and how you inject has quite an impact on systemic IGF-1 levels so saying "IgF will increase with time and will not vary much" is patently untrue." based upon your findings.



First of all, I have literally zero idea what your goals are, or what hormones you are using so I cannot comment at all about your stack design and whether or not it is going to work for your goals.

What I can say, is that in and of themselves, neither GH or IGF-1 are direct promoters of hypertrophy. IGF-1 largely blunts lipolysis, and GH must be used in a very specific ways to maximize the signaling pathways (STAT5b) used in lipolysis. Further reading if you are into that sort of thing...

GH induced lipolysis stimulation in 3T3-L1 adipocytes stably expressing hGHR: analysis on signaling pathway and activity of 20K hGH. - PubMed - NCBI

Chest, could you briefly outline an injection protocol and ideal dosage to administer for someone looking to maximize lipolysis in an athlete that typically runs around a combined 1000mg anabolics per week on a blast, insulin is not being used in this scenario. Athlete isn't looking to attain much anabolism from running GH because they don't want to run insulin and are simply looking to improve body composition through increased lipolysis as they continue to grow from their AAS stack.

 

[ChestRockwell]

Chest, could you briefly outline an injection protocol and ideal dosage to administer for someone looking to maximize lipolysis in an athlete that typically runs around a combined 1000mg anabolics per week on a blast, insulin is not being used in this scenario.

The key is the timing of the growth hormone injection. To maximize lipolysis potential, the GH must be administered during a time of fasting (upon waking is great for this purpose). It should also be noted that GH's fat mobilization properties are maximized around 1.5-2IUs so large bolus doses beyond this are wasteful, from a pure fat mobilization perspective.

The injection should be followed by a period of calorie abstinence as fat mobilization rates continue to increase before peaking around the 150-160 minute park, post-injection. I have seen a few studies show that mobilization rates are still elevated above baseline at the 6 hour mark (fasted) using as little as 1IU.

Bonus points for doing resistance training or fasted LISS during this time.

 

[weighted chinup]

The key is the timing of the growth hormone injection. To maximize lipolysis potential, the GH must be administered during a time of fasting (upon waking is great for this purpose). It should also be noted that GH's fat mobilization properties are maximized around 1.5-2IUs so large bolus doses beyond this are wasteful, from a pure fat mobilization perspective.

The injection should be followed by a period of calorie abstinence as fat mobilization rates continue to increase before peaking around the 150-160 minute park, post-injection. I have seen a few studies show that mobilization rates are still elevated above baseline at the 6 hour mark (fasted) using as little as 1IU.

Bonus points for doing resistance training or fasted LISS during this time.

Thanks friend.

How long do you recommend for an athlete in the off-season that is already in a fasted state (upon waking) to stay fasted after injecting GH if he is looking to maximize lipolysis? As you mentioned it stays elevated for quite a while and peaks after 2.5 hours, but what I'm wondering is if the benefit of staying fasted for very long periods of time is minimal and if you have found an 'ideal' amount of time to remain in a fasted state before diminishing returns kick in.

Have you found an amount of time that you believe is ideal to stay fasted after injecting in off-season athletes before diminishing returns kick in?

 

[ChestRockwell]

Thanks friend.

How long do you recommend for an athlete in the off-season that is already in a fasted state (upon waking) to stay fasted after injecting GH if he is looking to maximize lipolysis As you mentioned it stays elevated for quite a while and peaks after 2.5 hours, but I'm wondering the benefit of staying fasted for long periods of time is minimal and if you have found an 'ideal' amount of time to remain in a fasted state before diminishing returns kick in.

Have you found an amount of time that you believe is ideal to stay fasted after injecting in off-season athletes before diminishing returns kick in?

I recommend a minimum of three hours post-injection. It really will be a matter of finding your happy medium as I've had some of my athletes enjoy pushing the limits and, of course, the results are only going to be arguably better by doing this.

Extending the fast often has secondary benefits by lowering daily intake as well as maximizing the window that GH has to exert its lipolytic effects.

For me, I've kind of stuck to 3-5 hours fasted, post injection - with a 30-60 minute fasted LISS session thrown in.

I also resistance train fasted which gives me another five days per week where I'll be fasted for three hours (roughly) post-injection.

 

[weighted chinup]

I recommend a minimum of three hours post-injection. It really will be a matter of finding your happy medium as I've had some of my athletes enjoy pushing the limits and, of course, the results are only going to be arguably better by doing this.

Extending the fast often has secondary benefits by lowering daily intake as well as maximizing the window that GH has to exert its lipolytic effects.

For me, I've kind of stuck to 3-5 hours fasted, post injection - with a 30-60 minute fasted LISS session thrown in.

I also resistance train fasted which gives me another five days per week where I'll be fasted for three hours (roughly) post-injection.

Thank you again. Would you recommend this protocol for an off-season athlete looking to utilize GH to improve body composition via increased lipolysis as they continue to go up in scale weight, or would you limit this protocol to athletes that are in prep or dieting down?

The reason I ask is because many athletes including myself will have a hard time getting in the calories needed to grow if there is a 3-5 period of fasting in the day. Would you advise against this protocol in off-season athletes?

Also, do you feel the efficacy of this protocol will be blunted if the athlete is in a caloric surplus?

 

[weighted chinup]

I realize I'm pushing it with the direct questions on protocol since coaches don't always want to publicly reveal their methodology in exact detail, so anything you don't feel like disclosing outside of your clients, I fully understand. I appreciate the very detailed responses you've been providing on this board when it comes to GH though.

 

[Sampei]

My goal is increase of anabolism and sure fat loss. I have got better results as I increased my dosage. Had a better look at 5IU day then 3IU day.

I shoot before bed because in the morning was giving me such a zombie status that I couldn't even work.

Did it change anything? I don't know. I have got good results and I can live a normal life without falling as sleep every 5 mins.

It makes me laugh sometime when ppl want to shoot AM so they can have a natural pulse at night. (I doubt that you will have a pulse on an Ed schedule. Even if you shoot early morning) but what's more funny is that you have a nice IgF that's hundreds of points over their baseline but they still want that natural pulse... lol

It's like I inject testosterone but damn I want my natural production as well. Make no sense to me.

What makes sense is the EOD schedule. In my opinion it will lead to higher IgF because of the higher peak, plus it will help with not having an elevated BG for prolonged time. So less insuling resistance. Problem is I don't fancy injecting 1ml subQ. It leaves to big of a knot

You are arguing a point which I never disputed?



Your stance is that you do the same thing and have comparable results? Well umm...yeah , this is pretty predictable and obvious. However, I'll give you a bone...what if you did 10IUs before bed in an every other day fashion, please think about ways this may impact your systemic IGF levels and let me know your thoughts as time permits.

Bonus points if you can explain why I said that "...and how you inject has quite an impact on systemic IGF-1 levels so saying "IgF will increase with time and will not vary much" is patently untrue." based upon your findings.



First of all, I have literally zero idea what your goals are, or what hormones you are using so I cannot comment at all about your stack design and whether or not it is going to work for your goals.

What I can say, is that in and of themselves, neither GH or IGF-1 are direct promoters of hypertrophy. IGF-1 largely blunts lipolysis, and GH must be used in a very specific ways to maximize the signaling pathways (STAT5b) used in lipolysis. Further reading if you are into that sort of thing...

GH induced lipolysis stimulation in 3T3-L1 adipocytes stably expressing hGHR: analysis on signaling pathway and activity of 20K hGH. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Sampei]

Who is this guy?

I realize I'm pushing it with the direct questions on protocol since coaches don't always want to publicly reveal their methodology in exact detail, so anything you don't feel like disclosing outside of your clients, I fully understand. I appreciate the very detailed responses you've been providing on this board when it comes to GH though.

 

[ProfessorX]

My goal is increase of anabolism and sure fat loss. I have got better results as I increased my dosage. Had a better look at 5IU day then 3IU day.

I shoot before bed because in the morning was giving me such a zombie status that I couldn't even work.

Did it change anything? I don't know. I have got good results and I can live a normal life without falling as sleep every 5 mins.

It makes me laugh sometime when ppl want to shoot AM so they can have a natural pulse at night. (I doubt that you will have a pulse on an Ed schedule. Even if you shoot early morning) but what's more funny is that you have a nice IgF that's hundreds of points over their baseline but they still want that natural pulse... lol

It's like I inject testosterone but damn I want my natural production as well. Make no sense to me.

What makes sense is the EOD schedule. In my opinion it will lead to higher IgF because of the higher peak, plus it will help with not having an elevated BG for prolonged time. So less insuling resistance. Problem is I don't fancy injecting 1ml subQ. It leaves to big of a knot

The nightly dose Vs a.m. dose (mimic GH Release / supplementing GH) was explained by my HRT Clinic

GH and Testosterone.....not the same (Testosterone Serum..GH Serum Vs IGF1)

But.....Mands is posting his blood work for the "black tops"

He's doing nightly dosing (his IGF1 is low)

I'd like his take on it,....I value his opinion.....I'm no expert and am always willing to learn more.....maybe he has some good info

"For those younger than mid-fifties, taking your hGH right before bed is going to end up creating a negative feedback loop, robbing you of your body’s own nightly pulse of hGH"

I believe this would be possible (low IGF1) when used long term

It seems your nightly dose is working just fine for you

 

[Roger rabbit]

The nightly dose Vs a.m. dose (mimic GH Release / supplementing GH) was explained by my HRT Clinic

GH and Testosterone.....not the same (Testosterone Serum..GH Serum Vs IGF1)

But.....Mands is posting his blood work for the "black tops"

He's doing nightly dosing (his IGF1 is low)

I'd like his take on it,....I value his opinion.....I'm no expert and am always willing to learn more.....maybe he has some good info

@mands

 

[Sampei]

I'm high twenties and the night doses gave me xxx IgF. Maybe if I was to use AM doses IgF would be slightly higher but sometime you need a trade off. I prefer MAYBE a slighter IgF but a normal life then sleeping all day long due early am injection ehehe

Plus from many studies I have read that suppression of natural hgh production is not few hours. So even If you shoot early morning you still impair hgh production, especially because high IgF impair hgh production as well

The nightly dose Vs a.m. dose (mimic GH Release / supplementing GH) was explained by my HRT Clinic

GH and Testosterone.....not the same (Testosterone Serum..GH Serum Vs IGF1)

But.....Mands is posting his blood work for the "black tops"

He's doing nightly dosing (his IGF1 is low)

I'd like his take on it,....I value his opinion.....I'm no expert and am always willing to learn more.....maybe he has some good info

"For those younger than mid-fifties, taking your hGH right before bed is going to end up creating a negative feedback loop, robbing you of your body’s own nightly pulse of hGH"

I believe this would be possible (low IGF1) when used long term

It seems your nightly dose is working just fine for you

 

[fodsod]

I've always used a "before bed" protocol on my GH injections and have gone as high as 18iu EOD with Serostim with no obvious side effects I'm aware of with regards to natural GH production.


I've seen exactly what I would have expected from GH usage regarding progress but I would like to see something what @mands has to say at this point. I know he runs the "before bed" injections also.

 

[Sampei]

Same for me.
Do you do eod or ED?
I love the before bed because of the deep sleep. Is so fucking good.

I've always used a "before bed" protocol on my GH injections and have gone as high as 18iu EOD with Serostim with no obvious side effects I'm aware of with regards to natural GH production.


I've seen exactly what I would have expected from GH usage regarding progress but I would like to see something what @mands has to say at this point. I know he runs the "before bed" injections also.

 

[fodsod]

Same for me.
Do you do eod or ED?
I love the before bed because of the deep sleep. Is so fucking good.

I do ED now. When I went EOD I was experiencing severe sides with Serostim at 9ui ED so the EOD protocol helped a lot.

 

[Sampei]

I wanted to try eod but I don't like injection more then 0.5ml subq. Were you injecting 1ml sunq? Or were you diluiting the hgh with less water so you kept the volume injected low during eod schedule?

I usually do 5IU ED from a 10IU vial diluted with 1ml bac water. So that's 0.5ml/ED
I wonder if I could dilute the 10IU vial with just 0.5ml so that I could inject the whole vial without exceding the 0.5ml per injection. Don't know it it's understandable what I'm saying.

I do ED now. When I went EOD I was experiencing severe sides with Serostim at 9ui ED so the EOD protocol helped a lot.

 

[heady muscle]

I know this may sound like bro science, but I was actually told by an endocrinologist that the best way for an athlete to use GH was post workout. He claimed it bonded with lactic and uric acids. I tried to find studies to justify his claim and even asked him for studies and I found none and he sent none.